Some interesting comments after my bombshell. Madbaz doesn’t want to test it in court but I do!
I am of the opinion that if we are stuck with the EU legislation of Directive 561/2006/EC then it would be rude not to follow the Directive 2002/15/EC too. I have copied it in English and French as the wording should be identical. Let the Domestic boys have the RTD and anyone who is subject to EC rules should be subject to all the legislation,not just the ones they like.
VOSA have already said that they will concentrate on EC561/2006 and as far as I am aware the RTD has not being enforced as yet, almost 13 years after it’s introduction. VOSA are the enforcement body for the WTD RTD
delboytwo:
Wheel Nut:
delboytwo:
Wheel Nut:
delboytwo:
RTD 6 hour rule according to Vosa.
If you start work at 6 am and do
15 minutes check (06.15)
2 hours drive (08.15)
1 hour other work (09.15)
1 hour drive (10.15)
1 hour POA known about in advance (11.15)
30 minutes other work (11.45)
10 minutes cup of tea with warehouse chap (all I could manage) it was recorded as a break on the tacho (11.55)
2 hours other work (12.55) 15 minutes break after 1 hour other work (13.10)
1 hour drive (14.10)
15 minutes debrief Finished (14.25)
When is the latest I can take my RTD break,(put it in the list and say why its there) and long would it need to be.
what about the other 15 minutes
I am warming towards the fact that because I have taken a 15 minute break before 6 hours, then the slate is wiped clean and I need to do another 3 hours before the next 15 minutes is necessary. I haven’t tested this theory yet but then again no one else has, so the first case to get to court, I shall be paying close attention.
if you work 6 to 9 hours in a shift you have to have 30 minutes but it can be split into 15 minutes periods if you choose to do that the last 15 minutes must be taken before your shift ends, if you work over 9 hour you will need 45 minutes which must interrupt that period. please not that if you driving break is required in the shift if there is it can count for RTD as well
Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
Correct!
 
Article 6
Member States shall take the measures necessary to
ensure that, without prejudice to the level of protection
provided by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 or, failing that, by
the AETR Agreement, persons performing mobile road transport
activities, without prejudice to Article 2(1), in no circumstances
work for more than six consecutive hours without a
break. Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least
30 minutes, if working hours total between six and nine hours,
and of at least 45 minutes, if working hours total more than
nine hours.
Breaks may be subdivided into periods of at least 15
minutes each.
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that, without prejudice to the level of protection provided by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 or, failing that, by the AETR Agreement, persons performing mobile road transport activities, without prejudice to Article 2(1), in no circumstances work for more than six consecutive hours without a break. Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes, if working hours total between six and nine hours, and of at least 45 minutes, if working hours total more than nine hours.
Breaks may be subdivided into periods of at least 15 minutes each.
We know what the EU directive says and we know what the UK law says, we work to UK law not EU directives.
So, no he’s not right
I’m surprised this has become an issue as we’ve always known that the UK regulations require a break before exceeding 6 hour working time rather than 6 consecutive hours working time.
Article 1
Purpose
The purpose of this Directive shall be to establish minimum requirements in relation to the organisation of working time in order to improve the health and safety protection of persons performing mobile road transport activities and to improve road safety and align conditions of competition.
Correct me if I’m misunderstanding this but as far as I can see the OP is suggesting that a new 6 hour period begins when you finish a period of POA, so if you do 3 hours work then have an hour on POA you can then work a further 6 hours before needing a break.
The regulations as set out by the UK government are more stringent than the minimum requirements set out by the EU directive in that the period of POA does not reset the 6 hour period back to zero, so you will not be able to go so long without a break.
delboytwo:
Anyway the point I am getting to in my quiz is if you have a POA in the six hours from my start point your 6 hour rule starts again as POA in not work and you have not worked 6 consecutive hours so as long as you get the 30 minutes or 45 minutes in before your shift ends or at 6 hour continuous work your fine
nick2008:
you gotta admit Tacho it would be interesting though
That is what I thought
The EU rules grant Member States the power to apply derogations to further specific categories of vehicles and drivers while on national journeys. The following derogations have been implemented
in the UK.
Note: In some cases it may be necessary to refer to case law for definitive interpretations.
nick2008:
you gotta admit Tacho it would be interesting though
That is what I thought
The EU rules grant Member States the power to apply derogations to further specific categories of vehicles and drivers while on national journeys. The following derogations have been implemented
in the UK.
Note: In some cases it may be necessary to refer to case law for definitive interpretations.
I am interested in this post.
Why dont you email vosa and ask as you mite be able to put it better then me,
nick2008:
you gotta admit Tacho it would be interesting though
That is what I thought
The EU rules grant Member States the power to apply derogations to further specific categories of vehicles and drivers while on national journeys. The following derogations have been implemented
in the UK.
Note: In some cases it may be necessary to refer to case law for definitive interpretations.
I am interested in this post.
Why dont you email vosa and ask as you mite be able to put it better then me,
Because VOSA have a standard reply that tells you to take it to court.
Something like:
The above is only an opinion and VOSA advise you to take professional legal advice
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that, without prejudice to the level of protection provided by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 or, failing that, by the AETR Agreement, persons performing mobile road transport activities, without prejudice to Article 2(1), in no circumstances work for more than six consecutive hours without a break. Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes, if working hours total between six and nine hours, and of at least 45 minutes, if working hours total more than nine hours.
Breaks may be subdivided into periods of at least 15 minutes each.
I see that point, BUT a POA is not a BREAK, even though it breaks up WORKing time.
If it is a break, it is recorded as break, ie the bed symbol.
If it is POA it is recorded as POA, which isn’t break.
And the regulations state
Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes,
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that, without prejudice to the level of protection provided by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 or, failing that, by the AETR Agreement, persons performing mobile road transport activities, without prejudice to Article 2(1), in no circumstances work for more than six consecutive hours without a break. Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes, if working hours total between six and nine hours, and of at least 45 minutes, if working hours total more than nine hours.
Breaks may be subdivided into periods of at least 15 minutes each.
I see that point, BUT a POA is not a BREAK, even though it breaks up WORKing time.
If it is a break, it is recorded as break, ie the bed symbol.
If it is POA it is recorded as POA, which isn’t break.
And the regulations state
Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes,
But POA in its description in neither WORK or BREAK Simon that’s the point
This is a really interesting topic but at the moment i agree with tachograph.
I have brought this up with both the FTA and RHA over the last couple of years and both gave the same answer that consecutive does not apply in th UK. it is ‘any’ accumulated 6 hours of working time. So 3 hours work with 1 hour POA followed by 3 hours work is 6 hours of work and must not be exceeded without a break.
I doubt we will have this answered in court anytime soon.
2005 No. 639
TRANSPORT
The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005
Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
(5) An employer shall take all reasonable steps, in keeping with the need to protect the health
and safety of the mobile worker, to ensure that the limits specified above are complied with in the
case of each mobile worker employed by him.
So based on this then if you have a break of 15 minutes within the six hours that does not reset the 6 hour rule either, because if you read No 2 (blue) it as to interrupt that time 6 to 9 hours, and does not say 0 to 9 hours so a 15 minutes break in the 6 hour period would not count IMHO, because if a POA does not reset the clock, the 15 minutes within the 6 hours can’t either as the break would not be required until you work 6 hours or more ■■? as it says in red
2005 No. 639
TRANSPORT
The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005
Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
(5) An employer shall take all reasonable steps, in keeping with the need to protect the health
and safety of the mobile worker, to ensure that the limits specified above are complied with in the
case of each mobile worker employed by him.
So based on this then if you have a break of 15 minutes within the six hours that does not reset the 6 hour rule either, because if you read No 2 (blue) it as to interrupt that time 6 to 9 hours, and does not say 0 to 9 hours so a 15 minutes break in the 6 hour period would not count IMHO, because if a POA does not reset the clock, the 15 minutes within the 6 hours can’t either as the break would not be required until you work 6 hours or more ■■? as it says in red
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that, without prejudice to the level of protection provided by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 or, failing that, by the AETR Agreement, persons performing mobile road transport activities, without prejudice to Article 2(1), in no circumstances work for more than six consecutive hours without a break. Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes, if working hours total between six and nine hours, and of at least 45 minutes, if working hours total more than nine hours.
Breaks may be subdivided into periods of at least 15 minutes each.
I see that point, BUT a POA is not a BREAK, even though it breaks up WORKing time.
If it is a break, it is recorded as break, ie the bed symbol.
If it is POA it is recorded as POA, which isn’t break.
And the regulations state
Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes,
But POA in its description in neither WORK or BREAK Simon that’s the point
That is what I said.
Work has to be interrupted by a break.
As poa isn’t a break it doesn’t count as a break (from work).
If it doesn’t count as break, it can’t be the required break.
