RTD 6 hour rule Quiz

delboytwo · 16 February 2013 09:32

ROG:

delboytwo:
Rog have you read this bit i posted and whats your opinion

Anyway the point I am getting to in my quiz is if you have a POA in the six hours from my start point your 6 hour rule starts again as POA in not work and you have not worked 6 consecutive hours so as long as you get the 30 minutes or 45 minutes in before your shift ends or at 6 hour continuous work your fine

That POA cannot be counted as break because the only time it could be is when as driver 2 on multi manning - that is what VOSA and other EU authorities have stated because there is no option to record break when in slot 2 and MM

yes i understand that but its not work either if you read this from vosa guide you will see What i am thinking

Breaks:
— Mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break.
— If your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes.
— If your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes.
— Breaks should be of at least 15 minutes’ duration.

it says consecutive hours so if on a POA for 1 hour would that not break the chain of the consecutive part , and start the 6 hour clock again, you would still have to have 30 minutes if 6 to 9 hours work was done.

in the RTD is does not use the word consecutive

Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours,
the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a
break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
(5) An employer shall take all reasonable steps, in keeping with the need to protect the health
and safety of the mobile worker, to ensure that the limits specified above are complied with in the
case of each mobile worker employed by him.

Hopefully you see what I on about its either a mistake on vosa in there wording or it true

nick2008 · 16 February 2013 09:42

I can see where your commin from but its in the wording …its still duty time

delboytwo · 16 February 2013 09:49

nick2008:
I can see where your commin from but its in the wording …its still duty time

that what i think but RTD working time is that driving and work, so POA, Break, Rest, are not counted as work

so it you worked 6 full hour nostop that would mean you have worked 6 hours concecutive but and this is only my opinion if you brake the chain of work by a POA would that not start the 6 hour rule again

madbaz · 16 February 2013 09:52

delboytwo:
RTD 6 hour rule according to Vosa.

If you start work at 6 am and do

15 minutes check 0:15 W
2 hours drive 2:15 W 2:00 D
This is the earliest point a 0:30 continuous break can be taken to cover the whole shift
1 hour other work 3:15 W 2:00 D
1 hour drive 4:15 W 3:00 D
1 hour POA known about in advance 4:15 W 3:00 D 1:00 P
30 minutes other work 4:45 W 3:00 D 1:00 P
10 minutes cup of tea… 4:45 W 3:00 D 1:00 P 0:10 B
INSERT at least a continuous 15 minute break at/before this point or before completing another 1:15 Work.
If 0:30 is taken no further breaks will be legally required for this shift.
2 hours other work (2:00 w) 6:45 W 3:00 D 1:00 P 0:15/30 B
1 hour drive (3:00 w) 7:45 W 4:00 D 1:00 P 0:15/30 B
Last chance to fit a break in if still required.
15 minutes debrief (3:15 w) 8:00 W 4:00 D 1:00 P 0:30 B

As the Working time is 8:00, these apply

(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.

When is the latest I can take my RTD break,(put it in the list and say why its there) and long would it need to be.

rog · 16 February 2013 09:52

POA is not work but is still duty time
Duty time is not what is counted for the RTD - but should be IMO
Only driving and other work is counted for the RTD

Simple really

delboytwo · 16 February 2013 09:56

ROG:
POA is not work but is still duty time
Duty time is not what is counted for the RTD - but should be IMO
Only driving and other work is counted for the RTD

Simple really

but break is still duty time as well POa Break work drive is all duty time the only thing that is not is rest

rog · 16 February 2013 10:04

delboytwo:

ROG:
POA is not work but is still duty time
Duty time is not what is counted for the RTD - but should be IMO
Only driving and other work is counted for the RTD

Simple really

but break is still duty time as well POa Break work drive is all duty time the only thing that is not is rest

Where does it state that duty time is to be counted for the RTD?

I can see where it says working hours which is driving and other work time

delboytwo · 16 February 2013 10:10

ROG:

delboytwo:

ROG:
POA is not work but is still duty time
Duty time is not what is counted for the RTD - but should be IMO
Only driving and other work is counted for the RTD

Simple really

but break is still duty time as well POA, Break, work, and drive is all duty time the only thing that is not is rest

Where does it state that duty time is to be counted for the RTD?

I can see where it says working hours which is driving and other work time

i answering your post to the comment you posted the bit in red

rog · 16 February 2013 10:12

Duty time is the same as shift time and neither of those are work time

It could also be said that the above are also ‘at work’ time meaning the time from clocking in to clocking off

nick2008 · 16 February 2013 10:18

ROG:
Duty time is the same as shift time and neither of those are work time

It could also be said that the above are also ‘at work’ time meaning the time from clocking in to clocking off

and there we have why the regs are a total and utter ■■■■ up

delboytwo · 16 February 2013 10:19

ROG:
POA is not work but is still duty timeDuty time is not what is counted for the RTD - but should be IMOOnly driving and other work is counted for the RTDSimple really

ROG:
Duty time is the same as shift time and neither of those are work time

It could also be said that the above are also ‘at work’ time meaning the time from clocking in to clocking off

I know that but your not reading my posts your saying it in the above post that its duty not me, you need read your own posts

rog · 16 February 2013 10:19

nick2008:

ROG:
Duty time is the same as shift time and neither of those are work time

It could also be said that the above are also ‘at work’ time meaning the time from clocking in to clocking off

and there we have why the regs are a total and utter ■■■■ up

The regs only mention WORK and what that is so as not to confuse

We confuse them by adding other things such as duty time etc

delboytwo · 16 February 2013 10:30

Coming back on track

For you to have worked 6 hours consecutive would bring in the 6 hour rule but IMHO if a POA was in those 6 hours of 1 hour, at hour 3 that would IMHO mean that I have only worked 3 hours, and now I am now starting a 1 hour POA, and then start afresh 6 hour run, I know I have to have a break of 30 minutes if I work 6 hours to 9 hours or 45 minutes if I work over 9 hours.

tachograph · 16 February 2013 10:50

Before arguing about the wording of the regulations it may be a good idea to read them

All this talk about whether or not break is duty time, or whether duty time counts towards the 6 hours is just confusing an issue that does not exist

Nowhere in the UK road transport working time regulations does it state that you should not work more than 6 consecutive hours without a break.

The word “consecutive” has always been excluded from the RT(WT)R 2005, what it says in the EU directive is irrelevant as I’m pretty sure that the UK government have every right to bring in regulations that are more stringent than the EU directive calls for, and that’s precisely what they’ve done.

I can only assume that VOSA took the wording in GV262 from the EU directive rather than from the UK regulations.

madbaz · 16 February 2013 11:01

Whilst the wording in the GV262 includes the word ‘continuous’ there is no such word in THIS document, which is the important one.

Just for clarification, I can’t find anywhere that references to limits on shift time or duty time, these are only implied (such as ‘15 hour day’ which is actually reduced daily rest). Night workers are limited to 10 hours working time (unless an agreement is in place) but in reality they could still do a 13/15 hour shift.

tachograph · 16 February 2013 11:02

delboytwo:
RTD 6 hour rule aÌ¶cÌ¶cÌ¶oÌ¶rÌ¶dÌ¶iÌ¶nÌ¶gÌ¶ Ì¶tÌ¶oÌ¶ Ì¶VÌ¶oÌ¶sÌ¶aÌ¶.

If you start work at 6 am and do

15 minutes check
2 hours drive
1 hour other work
1 hour drive
1 hour POA known about in advance
30 minutes other work
10 minutes cup of tea with warehouse chap (all I could manage) it was recorded as a break on the tacho
2 hours other work â† â† This work should be interrupted unless a 15 minute break is taken earlier.
1 hour drive
15 minutes debrief

When is the latest I can take my RTD break,(put it in the list and say why its there) and long would it need to be.

The latest you should start a break of at-least 15 minutes is 1 hour and 15 minutes into the 2 hours other work.

delboytwo · 16 February 2013 13:18

MADBAZ:
Whilst the wording in the GV262 includes the word ‘continuous’ there is no such word in THIS document, which is the important one.

Just for clarification, I can’t find anywhere that references to limits on shift time or duty time, these are only implied (such as ‘15 hour day’ which is actually reduced daily rest). Night workers are limited to 10 hours working time (unless an agreement is in place) but in reality they could still do a 13/15 hour shift.

and from that link there is this

“working time” means the time from the beginning to the end of work during which the mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of his employer and exercising his functions or activities, being

(a)

time devoted to all road transport activities, including, in particular–

(i)

driving;

(ii)

loading and unloading;

(iii)

assisting passengers boarding and disembarking from the vehicle;

(iv)

cleaning and technical maintenance;

(v)

all other work intended to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport operation under way, including monitoring of loading and unloading and dealing with administrative formalities with police, customs, immigration officers and others; or

(b)

time during which the mobile worker cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks associated with being on duty, in particular during periods awaiting loading or unloading where their foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is to say either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question, or under collective agreements or workforce agreements;
“workstation” means

(a)

the location of the main place of business of the undertaking for which the person performing mobile transport activities carries out duties, together with its various subsidiary places of business, regardless of whether they are located in the same place as its head office or its main place of business;

(b)

the vehicle which the person performing mobile road transport activities uses when he carries out duties; or

(c)

any other place in which activities connected with transport are carried out.

also there is this bit in the link

Working time

The times of breaks, rests and periods of availability shall not be included in the calculation of working time.

so as i have said if you work 3 hours and have a 1 hour POA have you broken the 6 hours rule and would that no mean you now start a new six hour rule

NOTE I do no you have to have a break of 30 or 45 minutes it not that i am on about

this is what it says in the link about POA

“period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to remain at his workstation, but is required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume driving or to carry out other work , including periods during which the mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being transported by a ferry or by a train as well as periods of waiting at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions;

so the red bit means he does not have to be at his workstation but if you look at the blue bit work is deemed if at workstation

so please note this is a discussion about it it not something that as happened

and even if you look at this bit in the link

7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.

its implying you are working for the full 6 hours, POA is not working is it so you have not work for 6 hours you worked for 4 hours 15 minutes( Based on my OP) had a POA 1 hour, I know POA is not a break but it not work either.

tachograph · 16 February 2013 13:39

delboytwo:
so as i have said if you work 3 hours and have a 1 hour POA have you broken the 6 hours rule and would that no mean you now start a new six hour rule

No Del, because the 6 hour rule only says that “No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break”, it does not say that the 6 hours have to be consecutive working hours.

If I work 3 hours other work then do 1 hour on POA then another 3 hours other work, I’ve done 6 hours working time, those 6 hours may not be consecutive and are separated by a period of POA, but I’ve still done 6 hours working time so I need to have a break.

delboytwo · 16 February 2013 14:46

tachograph:

delboytwo:
so as i have said if you work 3 hours and have a 1 hour POA have you broken the 6 hours rule and would that no mean you now start a new six hour rule

No Del, because the 6 hour rule only says that “No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break”, it does not say that the 6 hours have to be consecutive working hours.

If I work 3 hours other work then do 1 hour on POA then another 3 hours other work, I’ve done 6 hours working time, those 6 hours may not be consecutive and are separated by a period of POA, but I’ve still done 6 hours working time so I need to have a break.

but it does in vosa GV262 and this is what i am on about

madbaz · 16 February 2013 15:19

Forget GV262 as it is not a legal document (imo), I understand perfectly what you are saying, but I’m not willing to test it in court.

For me, I’ll be having a break before or at 6 hours work, whether it’s broken up by POA or not.

It’s a bit academic really because if you know how long your wait is going to be, as long as it’s more than 15 minutes, stick the first 15 on bed, problem solved.