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OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
81

Scotchbaz:
orys you’re talking drivel now, usually I can’t really find fault with what you say, but have you read ANY history books that state what you have just stated? I very much doubt it. The joint powers who declared war on Germany in September 1939 were in no state to fight both Germany AND the USSR, although embargoes were immediately put in place which in turn severely hurt the German economy, and ultimately sped up the demise of ■■■■ Germany. The conference at Yalta, during which the map of a new Europe, post war, was drawn up, although attended by Churchill representing these great isles, we were politically sidelined by Stalin and an appeasing Roosevelt (much to Churchill’s disdain). If you want to point a finger at anyone for the rotten state of your country over the last 70 odd years look to America or closer to home. After all during the cold war years Russians didn’t govern you, you did. We as a nation were also done over by the American’s during and after the war, due to the US administrations wishes to end the British Empire and put their own in its place. I could go on, but as this is a trucking forum and site I won’t, as there are more appropriate places for a discussion of this type.

Yeah, you are right in most things. I meant only fihgting, that’s why you got that feeling that I am denying any involvement. I readed quite a bit books, polish ones, british ones and american ones, I watched some programs on BBC and polish TV and I am studying central european studies on British uni just now.

It’s all true: there was some embargo (altough as we can see it wasn’t bothered Hitler too much for the first years of the war) and british bombers were even dropping leaflets over some german cities… Britain supplied Soviet Union with raw materials, tanks, cars etc, together with Americans, and many of British soldiers were fighting in the war, when real fights begins for UK. Is that nothing? No, this is plenty, and allies would not be able to win that war withour Britain. Could they do more for Poland? This is now sience-fiction but many historians claim that if France and UK jointly attack Germany from the West in 1939, the War would be much shorter. I am not a good person to judge if that is real scenario or not. But I am sure of one: you could do more.

You claim that Britain in 1939 wasn’t in good condition and therefore it could not help Poland. So how it’s possible that so many Poles joined Britain in Battle for Britain etc. if Poland was wiped out the map at the moment?

As for Yalta: I (according to recent series on BBC: Stalin: IIWW Behind Closed Doors and also the “Question of Honour” book of american historians and also common opinion of polish sources) would yet say, that Churchill wasn’t a good guy there as well. Sorry, I have to go, we can come back to it later.

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I aint gettin involved in this one I’ll get banned

I dont have a problem with people working <<<<< yes WORKING here as long as they are paying all their tax’s.
But there should be a system that if there is a UK CITIZEN able to do the job then that person should be employed first then start the list for the next person etc

83

orys:

tartanraider:
Not at all. Have you forgotten we went into WW2 when the Germans invaded Poland?

Theorethically, yes, but you weren’t fighting too much until it becomed danger for you as well…

Then, after Germans were beaten, you let Stalin to do whatever he wants in Eastern Europe…

I’m surprised at this post Orys as I have you down as a smart fella.

When we declared war on Germany it was well known that our military capability at the time was no match for the Nazis.

They had prepared for war over the preceding years. We hadn’t. ■■■■ Germany had a dictator who answered to no-one and was able to direct resources wherever he wanted. He used much of those to build and equip what turned out to be the best army on the planet.

We were a democracy and and relied on Parliament to decide what was best for this country and understandably many thought there couldn’t be a repeat of WW1 as it was so horrific. They therefore did not commit the same level of resources to the defence of the country as the Nazis. Some, such as Winston Churchill strongly believed there WAS a real danger but they were in the minority and WW1 was still fresh in peoples minds.

When we had to evacuate from Dunkirk this country was on it’s knees. If the Nazis had followed us across the Channel we’d be speaking German now as we would not have been able to stop them. For a time not much happened on the military side. That was because we as a nation had to rebuild our fighting forces, not something that happens overnight. This island became a refuge for many who wanted to escape the Nazis including many from Eastern Europe, particularly Poles and many joined our fighting men here. Our convoys to Russia suffered immense casualties. Our Merchant and Royal Navies kept this country alive in our darkest hours until we could take up the fight again.We stood alone at that time. The Americans hadn’t come into the war then. It was touch and go for a long time. In the end it needed the combined efforts of ALL the Allied countries to defeat the Germans. After nearly 6 years of that Orys there wasn’t the will or capability on anyones part to drive the Russians back when they seized what they could. I’m sorry your country was forced to live under Communist rule but if you think about it Orys, what could we have done at the time?

In the end Solidarnosc and Lech Walesa helped free you and I was tremendously happy at that. You can’t keep the people down forever but it does take time occasionally.

Now sod off back to Poland there’s a good lad! :slight_smile:

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I know that it’s a bit off topic, but I enjoyed the Spitfire links, so thank you, Orys.

I don’t live that far away from RAF Northolt, where Spitfires were based (or the Polish War Memorial! :wink: ) - I’ve always had a soft spot for Spitfires.

Back on topic, in the places I’ve worked, we have a very low churn rate of drivers, whether English, Polish or other nationalities.

So for us, no, our Polish drivers are not going home (or on to to other countries) at the moment, but if work dries up, lets’s face it, we ALL might have to consider other possibilities! :open_mouth: :cry:

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tartanraider:
When we declared war on Germany it was well known that our military capability at the time was no match for the Nazis.

No one was able to beat Nazis alone at this time…

…

OK, instead of discussing obvious fact I owe you some explanation:

This wasn’t “official assesment of British involvement in WWII”. So this discussion about what Britain did good and so on is not relevant, as I am aware of that. It may indeed sound wrong, I just wanted to show you not the real fact but the feeling of people of Poland of it’s time - they relied very hevily on Britain in France and yet both countries weren’t to keen to join fight against the nazis at the beginning. Especially Britain disapointed people, as it was soon after this guy
was vawing this peace of paper with that joke, which wasn’t funny at all for Czechs…

So please do not think suddenly that I am some moron who have no idea about history. I do know something about that period, but I am here as a devil’s advocate and I am trying to show you Poles’ opinions, even if I not always agree with them.

But, going back to decent discussion: altough Churchill’s strategic sense was beyond all discusion great, Britain made quite a few diplomatical mistakes during this period - as we can see on the picture above, but this also apply to Yalta.

It’s fully understandable from the British point of wiev: “Americans may want free Poland, but they are sitting overseas, while we have to deal with Stalin at our own yard. Therefore give him Poland to eat and we’ll have piece of mind”. This was very good solution for British people, as it, I bet, saved plenty of hassle and Brit’s lives, but this British piece of mind costed a lot Poles and all other countries “sold” to Stalin in Yalta. The problem is, that the talks were between Stalin, with his obvious targets, Churchill, who cared mostly for Brits and Americans, who can play a good uncle, as the problem wasn’t in their village. I think it’s a scandal that eastern europenian countries, who fought so brave during the war had nothing to say in this talks, and that’s a really big shame, also to Churchill.

I know, it may be not too nice to listen to it if you are British, as Churchill seems to be some kind of national hero here (and it’s understandable) but if you only try to take another point of view you’ll understand what I am talking about. I fully understand you, PiÅ‚sudski is a polish hero and we don’t like too much to listen claims against him from Ukrainians…

So in my opinion: Britain was the main reason why we managed to beat nazis and hail to Britain for that. Altough I still dare to tell, that what happened in Yalta was betrayal of Poles and other eastern europenians, and Churchill is ALSO to blame for that. And, I’ll repeat again: this sentences I wrote was to express feeling of Poles, who were really hoping that Britain will help them more during that war. But I also understand the british people, who don’t wanted British soldiers to die in some distant country. You don’t like this (unless, as we could see recently, the country is rich in Oil, but that’s all different story, and this time both are nations are on the same side of shame).

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I won’t defend the annexation of Eastern Europe at Yalta. It was a compromise and there’s always someone who loses out there. There’s no doubt however that the Russians had made their intentions very clear and it’s extremely doubtful that they could have been overcome. The world would have been embroiled in WW3 before we’d cleared the mess from WW2. Why do you think we tip toe round the Chinese? Does Eastern Europe fancy joining with us to free Tibet from them? You can’t always attack a problem head on Orys. If you want to blame someone blame the Kings and politicians of the world. They set the common man against the common man for their own self interests and use them as cannon fodder. Precisely what’s happening in an economic sense by opening up Europe to countries that have a much lower cost base than the established Western Europe economies. So we get an influx of cheap labour that drives down wages and displaces the indigenous population. It’s good for the bosses but sets worker against worker.

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tartanraider:
I won’t defend the annexation of Eastern Europe at Yalta. It was a compromise and there’s always someone who loses out there. There’s no doubt however that the Russians had made their intentions very clear and it’s extremely doubtful that they could have been overcome.

Somehow they managed to do that with Austria and Greece…

The world would have been embroiled in WW3 before we’d cleared the mess from WW2.

Russians were as exhausted with the war as everyone else. And Americans made clear that they are ready to use nuclear weapons, so I doubt it. In worst case it would made WW2 a bit longer.

Why do you think we tip toe round the Chinese? Does Eastern Europe fancy joining with us to free Tibet from them?

That’s different question, as it should be done when China invided it, not now after so long time. But altough you may not noticed, as I never seen nothing on that in British Media, we joined you in Iraq and Polish soldiers are still one of the strongest powers in Afganistan as well. And we had no deal of mutual defence with any of this two countries. We are members of NATO and we have our duties, you might say. But somehow I can’t hear nothing about French or German involvement there. (As I am showing a Polish point of view I have to add, that for most Poles (including me) that involvement in that two stupid wars is the most stupid and shameful thing we recently did. Common opinion is: Poles are always fighting for the others, and then, where there is a Polish interest involved, we are always ripped off. And that’s not only Iraq, the same was done to us in Yalta or by Napoleon…)

You can’t always attack a problem head on Orys.

I am not attacking a problem. We both know, that the world issues won’t be solved by discussion on some trucker’s forum. I just taking an opportunity to show you Polish point of wiev: most times I agree with most Poles, but often not. But I think as we are now living toghether it’s good for you (and for us) if you will know us and what we think.

If you want to blame someone blame the Kings and politicians of the world. They set the common man against the common man for their own self interests and use them as cannon fodder. Precisely what’s happening in an economic sense by opening up Europe to countries that have a much lower cost base than the established Western Europe economies. So we get an influx of cheap labour that drives down wages and displaces the indigenous population. It’s good for the bosses but sets worker against worker.

Yes, I agree with you, but (again) try to look on that from Polish point of wiev: after all we suffered under communism regime, thanks to what you had this rich and easy live, we want to get something from the live as well… And i know it’s not only mine opinion here on the forum, that Poles deserved right to work here for their living. In simply words: you had a good live thanks to Yalta. We had bad live thanks to Yalta. So it’s nothing strange that you are sharing your richness with us now. (altough I don’t think that was a main reason why British work market was so widely open, this way of thinking is common amongst Poles).

There is a question what all that other imigrant people did for Britain and why are you so keen to invite them all here, but this is not my country, nor I am from Pakistan to be a side of that question, so I won’t go any further on that (altough I got my opinion on that).

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orys:

The world would have been embroiled in WW3 before we’d cleared the mess from WW2.

Russians were as exhausted with the war as everyone else. And Americans made clear that they are ready to use nuclear weapons, so I doubt it. In worst case it would made WW2 a bit longer.

As we now know in hindsight (which is undoubtedly a wonderful thing), Uncle Sam might have dropped a couple of bombs on Japan, but that was all they had at the time, TWO! General Eisenhower, much to the chagrin of Churchill, was adamant that allied forces not advance further than the demarcation lines agreed during Yalta, in an effort to reduce more dead GI’s. What you are in fact advocating is what many of the ■■■■ hierarchy wanted, piece with the west to carry on the war against bolshevism.

I am not attacking a problem. We both know, that the world issues won’t be solved by discussion on some trucker’s forum. I just taking an opportunity to show you Polish point of wiev: most times I agree with most Poles, but often not. But I think as we are now living toghether it’s good for you (and for us) if you will know us and what we think.

I totally agree with you orys, debate of the common man eventually filters up hill. It’s good to get the grey mater going.

Yes, I agree with you, but (again) try to look on that from Polish point of wiev: after all we suffered under communism regime, thanks to what you had this rich and easy live, we want to get something from the live as well… And i know it’s not only mine opinion here on the forum, that Poles deserved right to work here for their living. In simply words: you had a good live thanks to Yalta. We had bad live thanks to Yalta. So it’s nothing strange that you are sharing your richness with us now. (altough I don’t think that was a main reason why British work market was so widely open, this way of thinking is common amongst Poles).

But then you loose me again, please stick to the facts. Yes the British Empire undoubtedly made some British citizens very wealthy, but it wasn’t for nothing that Marx and Engels wrote the Communist manifesto after seeing the slums of London and Manchester. What has made this country great is blood, sweat and tears. During Yalta Churchill was effectively sidelined by uncles Joe and Sam. Churchill tried to fight for the eastern European countries to be self governing after hostilities. In the post war years Britain owed more than any other country for fighting the war due to the American lend lease agreement. A debt that according to which figures you care to look at, has only recently be paid back. Even after the war the US still tried, sometimes successfully, to get Britain further into debt. In particular the Suez crisis (which incidentally many academics around the globe believe that had Britain and France been able to stabilize the zone we wouldn’t have half the problems we now do in the middle east), during which the US put a run on the pound, in an overt show of strength to ensure that Britain knew it was no longer a world police state, only agreeing to lend Britain (through the IMF) the money to bail itself out if it pulled out of Suez.

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I do love these tête-à -tête’s though.

90

tartanraider:
Now sod off back to Poland there’s a good lad! :slight_smile:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

But seriously, if we all went back to where we came from, surely Kenya would get just a wee bit crowded. :open_mouth:

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Scotchbaz:

tartanraider:
Now sod off back to Poland there’s a good lad! :slight_smile:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

But seriously, if we all went back to where we came from, surely Kenya would get just a wee bit crowded. :open_mouth:

I’m looking for the drawback there…still looking…still looking…still looking…

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Scotchbaz:
As we now know in hindsight (which is undoubtedly a wonderful thing), Uncle Sam might have dropped a couple of bombs on Japan, but that was all they had at the time, TWO! General Eisenhower, much to the chagrin of Churchill, was adamant that allied forces not advance further than the demarcation lines agreed during Yalta, in an effort to reduce more dead GI’s. What you are in fact advocating is what many of the ■■■■ hierarchy wanted, piece with the west to carry on the war against bolshevism.

Eh, not exactly. No-one cared about Nazists in Yalta any more… They simply weren’t too much of them left. Therefore peace on the West and Central Europe against Soviet Union would change only one thing: the Wall would be in, say Lwów, not Berlin. But it’s all sience fiction, i don’t want to go into that. Poles just can’t believe that there wasn’t possible to gain anything more for us (especially, that west was aware about communist games with first polish “free” elections and it did ignored that, as it would not fit in their line of politics).

But then you loose me again, please stick to the facts. Yes the British Empire undoubtedly made some British citizens very wealthy, but it wasn’t for nothing that Marx and Engels wrote the Communist manifesto after seeing the slums of London and Manchester. What has made this country great is blood, sweat and tears. During Yalta Churchill was effectively sidelined by uncles Joe and Sam. Churchill tried to fight for the eastern European countries to be self governing after hostilities.

Yeah, he tried, but for Poles he tried not hard enaugh.

In the post war years Britain owed more than any other country for fighting the war due to the American lend lease agreement. A debt that according to which figures you care to look at, has only recently be paid back. Even after the war the US still tried, sometimes successfully, to get Britain further into debt. In particular the Suez crisis (which incidentally many academics around the globe believe that had Britain and France been able to stabilize the zone we wouldn’t have half the problems we now do in the middle east), during which the US put a run on the pound, in an overt show of strength to ensure that Britain knew it was no longer a world police state, only agreeing to lend Britain (through the IMF) the money to bail itself out if it pulled out of Suez.

Yet still the West was able to pump bilions into German economy and Germans are now pretty well compared to Poland. So try to imagine what average Pole may feel on that: we were the most suffered nation - most people killed were Polish citizens (that’s includes huge part of Jewish population), Poland was most destroyed country in the world (I don’t have time to check, but wasn’t it about well over 70% of everything), then Poland thanks to Yalta was occupated by Soviets (in fact last Russian soldier left Poland in 1992) and in the same time Western Germans got the Marshall plan, have freedom to travel in their Mercs arround whole Western Europe and they are so Rich, that after Berlin Wall collapsed they don’t had really major problems in inhabiting the East (while Poland has to manage without any help from it’s western half with blooming economy).

As we say in Poland “What you see is depends of where are you sitting” :wink:

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tartanraider » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:42 pm

Scotchbaz wrote:
tartanraider wrote:
Now sod off back to Poland there’s a good lad!

But seriously, if we all went back to where we came from, surely Kenya would get just a wee bit crowded.

I’m looking for the drawback there…still looking…still looking…still looking…

You turn to Kenya if you want to, this laddies not for turning….

94

French Commonly known as the cheese eating surrender monkeys Orys!]

I am not attacking a problem. We both know, that the world issues won’t be solved by discussion on some trucker’s forum. I just taking an opportunity to show you Polish point of wiev

And I welcome that mate.

But I think as we are now living toghether it’s good for you (and for us) if you will know us and what we think.

Agreed :slight_smile:

you had a good live thanks to Yalta.

My life has been a constant struggle Orys! I don’t doubt though it was harder under the Russians but I haven’t been living the high life mate!

So it’s nothing strange that you are sharing your richness with us now.

What riches is that then? :laughing:

there is a question what all that other imigrant people did for Britain and why are you so keen to invite them all here,

I was wondering that myself and I didn’t invite them here! :laughing:

Let me put it this way Orys, if things were better in Poland than here and all us British drivers flooded over there pushing you out of jobs and you saw the money going down how would you feel?

I like you Orys and if it was just a few of you I wouldn’t have a problem mate. I’d rather have you than the scum who were hurling abuse at our troops in Luton.

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orys:

Scotchbaz:
As we now know in hindsight (which is undoubtedly a wonderful thing), Uncle Sam might have dropped a couple of bombs on Japan, but that was all they had at the time, TWO! General Eisenhower, much to the chagrin of Churchill, was adamant that allied forces not advance further than the demarcation lines agreed during Yalta, in an effort to reduce more dead GI’s. What you are in fact advocating is what many of the ■■■■ hierarchy wanted, piece with the west to carry on the war against bolshevism.

Eh, not exactly. No-one cared about Nazists in Yalta any more… They simply weren’t too much of them left. Therefore peace on the West and Central Europe against Soviet Union would change only one thing: the Wall would be in, say Lwów, not Berlin. But it’s all sience fiction, i don’t want to go into that. Poles just can’t believe that there wasn’t possible to gain anything more for us (especially, that west was aware about communist games with first polish “free” elections and it did ignored that, as it would not fit in their line of politics).

You are assuming that victory was a forgone conclusion, it was anything but at the time of Yalta. It was agreed at Yalta that the ‘conquering powers’ would help rebuild infrastructure and government then pull out. Churchill knew that in the case of the Soviet Union this would not be the case, however Roosevelt was easier appeased to this idea (whether or not he was affected by his illness to a detrimental level at this time is something we’ll probably never know). The US economies vastness dictated that it was on the rise pre WW2, while on the other hand the British Empire was already in decline through various insurrections etc, from the ‘20’s.

Yeah, he tried, but for Poles he tried not hard enaugh.

Poland was not part of the British Empire, far less British isles, so why should Britain carry the can? Remember that when you point the finger of blame at someone else, there are four pointing back at yourself.

Yet still the West was able to pump bilions into German economy and Germans are now pretty well compared to Poland. So try to imagine what average Pole may feel on that: we were the most suffered nation - most people killed were Polish citizens (that’s includes huge part of Jewish population), Poland was most destroyed country in the world (I don’t have time to check, but wasn’t it about well over 70% of everything), then Poland thanks to Yalta was occupated by Soviets (in fact last Russian soldier left Poland in 1992) and in the same time Western Germans got the Marshall plan, have freedom to travel in their Mercs arround whole Western Europe and they are so Rich, that after Berlin Wall collapsed they don’t had really major problems in inhabiting the East (while Poland has to manage without any help from it’s western half with blooming economy).

Britain was effectively bankrupted by the Second World War. I do not deny that Poland was very badly decimated and suffered huge loss of life. On the question of the Polish Jews, many would not have suffered if there had not been so much anti Semitism in Europe (which was exacerbated by the great depression), so that neighbours turned in the Jews living in their neighbourhood all too readily. (This is a fact of life unfortunately, just look at what happened in the former Yugoslavia in the ‘90’s). I lived in Germany just after the wall came down and believe me there was big problems, some of which have still to be put right. The Marshall plan came about to avoid what happened in Weimar Germany and as such has to be put into context. My paternal Grandfather was one of the men who helped restart Volkswagen after the war, did Britain get anything for that, apart from a few free cars at the time, no. These things we do in the perhaps vain hope of preventing our children and our children’s children ever witnessing the horrors of a war on this scale again.

I like you Orys and if it was just a few of you I wouldn’t have a problem mate. I’d rather have you than the scum who were hurling abuse at our troops in Luton.

Hear hear.

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I’ve got to say though orys, that you’re the type of bloke I really like to have banter with in a pub, with a bit of luck we’ll be able to do that sometime down the road.

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The whole point of emmigrating is to enjoy the higher standards of the new country.Its not the fault of people like Orys that zb bosses are reducing pay rates in the knowledge that an even more desperate person will come along and fill the vacancy.

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alamcculloch:
The whole point of emmigrating is to enjoy the higher standards of the new country.Its not the fault of people like Orys that zb bosses are reducing pay rates in the knowledge that an even more desperate person will come along and fill the vacancy.

If they weren’t here the bosses couldn’t do it, could they?

I take it you’re ok then… :confused:

99

tartanraider:
If they weren’t here the bosses couldn’t do it, could they?

I take it you’re ok then… :confused:

As you can see even from this forum nowadays people are keen to take ANY job, even for money “that they would not rise their bum off bed” recently. And if not this Poles, who were working for less then we are working (as I never worked for less than my British peers), the Haulage industry would be down much earlier…

100

Sorry , I was very busy and I had no time to reply and then I forgot :slight_smile:

Scotchbaz:
Poland was not part of the British Empire, far less British isles, so why should Britain carry the can? Remember that when you point the finger of blame at someone else, there are four pointing back at yourself.

Tell that to people who fought for Britain during the war, that Britain was never part of Poland and they should not give their lives for it…

My paternal Grandfather was one of the men who helped restart Volkswagen after the war, did Britain get anything for that, apart from a few free cars at the time, no.

So somehow Britain was able to deliver some help to others despite it’s bankruptcy. And yet: did ever Germany was a part of a British empire? I guess no.

You choosed to help for free them, who attacked you during the war and left these, who were defending you.

Did you not see why Polish people feel as they feel from that?