ramone:
Is it a coincidence that none of the European assemblers survived and the in house manufacturers did ? Iveco ,Daf , MAN, Mercedes ,Renault, Scania and Volvo all build their own engines ,with the first 3 opting for a German auto box as standard for some strange reason. Maybe there was something drastically wrong with the ■■■■■■■ ,Fuller , Rockwell combination which was a favourite to many drivers . I personally never feel totally in control with an auto box with the ZF being imho the worst by far ,but some on here love em. Volvo now control Renault and Scania and MAN are under the same umbrella whos next for the high jump ■■? The choice is dwindling so when Brexit is finally concluded maybe L A R F could be a possibility … not in my lifetime
Great conclusion! It has to do with warranty and most operators had their experiences with a big NO on claims in case of assembled (which in fact are all?), as it was not the engine but the most certainly the gearbox and it wasnot the gearbox but the axles-ratio and so on…hence the firm inhouse-producers of components took the market.
On the suggestion to take Foden as the big dog…well it was absorbed in DAF/Leyland and finally Paccar with hardly visible examples of current existence?
Again, Leyland/Foden (strong in world markets) and Atkinson/ERF (strong in homeland and special export-markets) are the bones to chew on
Luc
In our case the typical ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ combination was never exactly a warranty or performance liability to us.Unlike some of our in house disasters like the AEC V8 and Leyland 500 among other weak/poor driveline componentry.So its anyone’s guess where the idea of anything supposedly ‘wrong’ with the former comes from.
As opposed to Rolls Eagle and ■■■■■■■ options combined with the usual US based driveline components described above being virtually bullet proof.In addition to the advantage that,unlike in house,the costs of a lemon design and fixing it are ultimately picked up by the supplier not the assembler.While the assembler is then free to choose another alternative from the range or go elsewhere.Although agreed in this case realistically the outsourced licence manufactured options would probably be a case of putting all of our eggs in one basket of ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ etc.Which seems no bad thing with all being proven durable designs in one way or another.Including in this case a return of an updated alternative fuelled spark ignition version of the N14 among other Westport options including the M11.
While I don’t think that the Foden name was ever less well respected than Leyland,Atkinson or ERF in the domestic market.Except for the plastic cabs issue which also applied to ERF and which obviously wouldn’t apply now anyway.The fact is it’s not difficult to see how removal of Euro type approval for us could easily give back the initiative to domestic truck manufacturing here.Especially given the clean sheet of diesel engines being legislated out of existence here and all of which do able by around 2020 given the will to do it.
What do I know? very little. I,m reading Mac W n CF Cav R 52 Ram n many others, knowledgeable folk. Regardless of differing opinions. So from laymans land n on no knowledge what so ever(which people without knowledge think it gives them the edge ,which is so WRONG.) I,m getting the impression that there could be a crack in the Euro boys armour in which an arrow could be fired. LARF could rise from the ashes n be the MAN. Stranger things can happen n have so recently that you wished you,d had a pound on it. The industry ,if there is one here, has the facts now n possibly the foot in the door to do the biz
Wouldn,t it be SUPER if the tables turned in our life time, why God knows, it would still be SUPER cheers Paul
coomsey:
I,m getting the impression that there could be a crack in the Euro boys armour in which an arrow could be fired.
I’d guess a typical old school Brit ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ assembly operation in a tie up with Westport.In a legislative environment that effectively takes out Diesel engined trucks registered here after 2019/20 would be more than enough do it.
The name LARF wouldnt be needed because Leyland are still alive and kicking, so all we need now is someone to put together a full range of engines ,gearboxes, axles and cabs to start the ball rolling , the hard bit is already in place the name ..... Leyland...... ,ironically werent they the ones responsible for killing off the majority of British commercial vehicle manufacturers, and what about buses and coaches we were world leaders in that department a few decades ago too
Don’t write off the UK home produced motor industry, we still have successful manufacturers. Wrightbus and SDC trailers from Northern Ireland are significant competitors in their respective sectors.
Late edit: I should of course have added Dennis to the successful list.
cav551:
Don’t write off the UK home produced motor industry, we still have successful manufacturers. Wrightbus and SDC trailers from Northern Ireland are significant competitors in their respective sectors.
It wasnt writing the British motor industry off cav, more a case of who would invest the vast amounts of money needed to restart the British motor industry and at the same time have the technical skills to not only compete with foreign competion but also prise away the customers who have found a manufacturer they could trust. Also theres a dog eat dog scenario with the remaining manufacturers so to add another into the pot would be highly unlikely even though it would be great to see a big player from the UK doing us proud
Just a suggestion…I think that eventually Leyland/Foden would succeed into the Paccar-
group as they do now more or less, but I think the combination of Atkinson (long before the
merge with Seddon and absorbtion in the IHC-group, with later Enasa, Iveco etc) is a more interesting story on their odds, being smaller and capable to have specialities in house?
Macadam-woman:
Just a suggestion…I think that eventually Leyland/Foden would succeed into the Paccar-
group as they do now more or less, but I think the combination of Atkinson (long before the
merge with Seddon and absorbtion in the IHC-group, with later Enasa, Iveco etc) is a more interesting story on their odds, being smaller and capable to have specialities in house?
Luc
So would you think AEC could have survived before they were swallowed up into the Leyland empire with their wealth of experience in Lorry and Bus manufacturing all in house ,with the right funding■■?
ramone:
The name LARF wouldnt be needed because Leyland are still alive and kicking, so all we need now is someone to put together a full range of engines ,gearboxes, axles and cabs to start the ball rolling , the hard bit is already in place the name ..... Leyland...... ,ironically werent they the ones responsible for killing off the majority of British commercial vehicle manufacturers,
Leyland certainly did do more harm than good in the form of its one sided effectively foreign aid exercise in helping DAF to get where it is today.Not helped by an obvious US policy of investing in our European competitors at our expense.Which in this case translated as DAF being seen as top dog over Foden and Leyland.It’s hopefully that change in US policy at the top combined with extricating ourselves from the restrictions imposed by Euro type approval regs which could be the game changer now ‘if’ we’ve got the motivation to take advantage of it fast and at the earliest opportunity.While in addition to that Leyland also has too much historic negative baggage attached to the name to deserve to survive.On that basis Foden is the right name to go forward with.
If we are going for a Foden chassis as seems to be the suggestion at the moment, then we need to steer well clear of a couple of their past favourite components; Burman steering boxes which were more suited to the Queen Mary and Chapman driver’s seats. Unless we are abandoning a significant sector of the market we shall also need to consider the demands of the construction industry. For the tipper chassis which are presumably going to be drum braked, then we can safely ditch Foden’s own cam brake, but we still need to decide what we are going to replace it with. Will we be looking at a simple S cam brake, the Simplex (Z) cam brake or hopefully not the Rockwell twin wedge brake? We are also going to need to decide on a rear bogie suspension set up. Fodens Elephant’s feet can go in the bin presumably, as can the Albion Reiver non-reactive suspension and any simple four spring balance beam set up, at a guess we shall be going with the Scammell derived Constructor 8 bogie.
There is a lot more to producing a marketable vehicle than simply bolting in the largest possible engine and the favoured transmission. It has to steer, stop and not get stuck.
cav551:
If we are going for a Foden chassis as seems to be the suggestion at the moment, then we need to steer well clear of a couple of their past favourite components; Burman steering boxes which were more suited to the Queen Mary and Chapman driver’s seats. Unless we are abandoning a significant sector of the market we shall also need to consider the demands of the construction industry. For the tipper chassis which are presumably going to be drum braked, then we can safely ditch Foden’s own cam brake, but we still need to decide what we are going to replace it with. Will we be looking at a simple S cam brake, the Simplex (Z) cam brake or hopefully not the Rockwell twin wedge brake? We are also going to need to decide on a rear bogie suspension set up. Fodens Elephant’s feet can go in the bin presumably, as can the Albion Reiver non-reactive suspension and any simple four spring balance beam set up, at a guess we shall be going with the Scammell derived Constructor 8 bogie.
There is a lot more to producing a marketable vehicle than simply bolting in the largest possible engine and the favoured transmission. It has to steer, stop and not get stuck.
Assuming we go for what is effectively a licence home built version of the Colonial KW operation under the Foden brand surely that scene isn’t based on trucks which can’t steer,stop and not get stuck.IE all the required components are already there in KW’s parts bin.We just need to get locally licenced made access to it all.
The key in that case is that the emphasis is put back on co operation within/among the English speaking world and moves away from Euroland.On that note there’s no reason to think that the resulting KW based,Foden badged,rigids would be any less capable than the tractor units.
As for bolting in the ‘largest possible engine’.Assuming an alternative fuelled Westport ■■■■■■■ N14/M11 based range we can leave that idea firmly with the obsolete diesel technology of Volvo and Scania etc.Although an alternative fuelled K series is available if 14 litres just isn’t enough.
Foden tried the Kenworth torsion bar bogie suspension back in the 1980s; it wasn’t an outstanding success. So what are you picking out of the KW parts bin to go under our 8 leg tipper?
cav551:
Foden tried the Kenworth torsion bar bogie suspension back in the 1980s; it wasn’t an outstanding success. So what are you picking out of the KW parts bin to go under our 8 leg tipper?
Fodens rubber back end was brilliant, maintenance free, rode well and gave virtually no problems as well as also being very light. All our Fodens were fitted with it, it could lead to loss of traction off road but when we later had trucks come with the optional cross locks fitted that made a big difference and we rarely got stuck. I did get well bogged on one job near Stratford with a load of tennis court tarmac on though, the ■■■■■■■ L10 just hadn’t got the power low down to extract the truck from the axle deep ■■■■ until part of the load was tipped off into barrows! The gang were not happy!:roll:
cav551:
Foden tried the Kenworth torsion bar bogie suspension back in the 1980s; it wasn’t an outstanding success. So what are you picking out of the KW parts bin to go under our 8 leg tipper?
Really? actually I thought you’d go for something like that. I take it that this Hendrickson one below which has been giving excellent service for the last 70 odd years is just too old hat then. The tipper industry has always been very conservative in its specifications. The blinged up fancy pants only appeals to a small number of operators. What they really want is something that doesn’t break and doesn’t get stuck. Air suspension and disc brakes are still viewed with some scepticism. For jobs with certain specific conditions some are prepared to try new ideas like the tridem, but on the whole the average purchaser wants to see someone else try it out first. You actually have to produce a product that the customer wants to buy, not start a long running battle to try to convince him you know best and he’s a fool for disagreeing with you, however right you may feel you might be. Because if you try that tack he’s just gong to show you the door and buy someone else’s product.
cav551:
Foden tried the Kenworth torsion bar bogie suspension back in the 1980s; it wasn’t an outstanding success. So what are you picking out of the KW parts bin to go under our 8 leg tipper?
Really? actually I thought you’d go for something like that. I take it that this Hendrickson one below which has been giving excellent service for the last 70 odd years is just too old hat then. The tipper industry has always been very conservative in its specifications. The blinged up fancy pants only appeals to a small number of operators. What they really want is something that doesn’t break and doesn’t get stuck. Air suspension and disc brakes are still viewed with some scepticism. For jobs with certain specific conditions some are prepared to try new ideas like the tridem, but on the whole the average purchaser wants to see someone else try it out first. You actually have to produce a product that the customer wants to buy, not start a long running battle to try to convince him you know best and he’s a fool for disagreeing with you, however right you may feel you might be. Because if you try that tack he’s just gong to show you the door and buy someone else’s product.
I gave that as an example.The point being that,like the new hypothetical ‘Foden’ operation,KW are an assembler so not limited to being an any particular type of design.In which case the ‘parts bin’ I was referring to in this case gives us the full range of Hendrickson’s second to none products.The Primaax EX just being one of those.In which case if a customer says they want it on steel or rubber or air they can obviously have it.But what they don’t obviously need or have to have is the dodgy torsion bar set up which you described.
cav551:
For jobs with certain specific conditions some are prepared to try new ideas like the tridem, but on the whole the average purchaser wants to see someone else try it out first.
Edit to add.Where does it say that the Primaax EX air suspension is only limited to tridem axle set ups.As opposed to 6x4 or numerous configurations including driven and un driven ones ?.
To answer Ramone’s question, MB parent company Daimler AG also own Freightliner and Western Star.
Now my two cents on the LARF, I would change things up a bit, I’m going to go with a design and engineering team from AEC, Foden, Leyland Motors and Scammell.
The cab would be the Motor Panels one used on the Crusader and ERF European, chassis would be a joint venture between Foden and Scammell, the engine would be a development of the Leyland 0.680 with Foden making the gearbox, axles would come from Leyland.
My masterstroke would be in having the project run by the management team from Dennis, who are the only surviving British manufacturer.
As a matter of interest, was the much-acclaimed Thornycroft-derived AEC 6-speed constant-mesh gearbox ever matched to the Leyland 0.600 or 0.680 engine? They were contemporary components at the top of their field at the time, so someone must have had a go at it! Robert
