newmercman:
To answer Ramone’s question, MB parent company Daimler AG also own Freightliner and Western Star.
Now my two cents on the LARF, I would change things up a bit, I’m going to go with a design and engineering team from AEC, Foden, Leyland Motors and Scammell.
The cab would be the Motor Panels one used on the Crusader and ERF European, chassis would be a joint venture between Foden and Scammell, the engine would be a development of the Leyland 0.680 with Foden making the gearbox, axles would come from Leyland.
My masterstroke would be in having the project run by the management team from Dennis, who are the only surviving British manufacturer.
Firstly in that case the Dennis team will need to make sure that DAF doesn’t get our engine and surely the relevant MP cab will be the SA 400 not the previous generation Crusader/European.While the problem with the Foden box is that we’ve already got hindsight to know that rightly or wrongly the customers will generally prefer a Fuller box rather than a Foden one.
While with Dennis’ typical emergency vehicle manufacturer attitude to testing any ‘issues’ with the turbo 680 motor will be found and fixed even quicker than DAF would have done.
There is much information about this elsewhere on another website. The D197 (Mercury) six speed box was fitted behind the 600 engine in some Leyland chassis right from the moment of Leyland’s acquisition of the ACV group. The large D203 (Mandator) box went behind the 680 in some Scammell Routemen.
cav551:
For jobs with certain specific conditions some are prepared to try new ideas like the tridem, but on the whole the average purchaser wants to see someone else try it out first.
Edit to add.Where does it say that the Primaax EX air suspension is only limited to tridem axle set ups.As opposed to 6x4 or numerous configurations including driven and un driven ones ?.
cav551:
For jobs with certain specific conditions some are prepared to try new ideas like the tridem, but on the whole the average purchaser wants to see someone else try it out first.
Edit to add.Where does it say that the Primaax EX air suspension is only limited to tridem axle set ups.As opposed to 6x4 or numerous configurations including driven and un driven ones ?.
It doesn’t and I haven’t said that it is.
That’s fair enough.I obviously confused your statement above.
In which case the general premise,that an assembly operation based on the Hendrickson range for example,would allow the flexibility to provide for any customer requirement from air,steel,or rubber suspension systems,stands.
cav551:
There is much information about this elsewhere on another website. The D197 (Mercury) six speed box was fitted behind the 600 engine in some Leyland chassis right from the moment of Leyland’s acquisition of the ACV group. The large D203 (Mandator) box went behind the 680 in some Scammell Routemen.
Thanks cav551, I thought someone would know! Cheers, Robert
I agree with CF that the later Motor Panels cab on the SA400 would be far preferable to the Mark 4 Crusader/ERF type one. Another Motor Panels offering was a special long-haul version of the later Mark 5 cab called the ‘Transcontinental’ - displayed at the motor show but never went into production. However, it might be a good plan to go for one of the few cabs of the period that later grew into a high cab. A high-roof cab makes an astonishing difference to the quality of life of a long-haul trucker. Leyland’s T45 springs to mind. It wasn’t (in my view) very attractive but not only did it have a high-roof option, it also went through an unusually long development process, so one would assume it was quite a good cab (never drove one so have no first-hand experience of it). Cheers, Robert
newmercman:
To answer Ramone’s question, MB parent company Daimler AG also own Freightliner and Western Star.
Now my two cents on the LARF, I would change things up a bit, I’m going to go with a design and engineering team from AEC, Foden, Leyland Motors and Scammell.
The cab would be the Motor Panels one used on the Crusader and ERF European, chassis would be a joint venture between Foden and Scammell, the engine would be a development of the Leyland 0.680 with Foden making the gearbox, axles would come from Leyland.
My masterstroke would be in having the project run by the management team from Dennis, who are the only surviving British manufacturer.
It seems strange that Daimler AG with all that US technology behind them didn`t market Western Star and Freightliner in Europe , do they need a nudge from someone on here to make them see the errors of their ways
Much as I like them I wouldn’t use Fodens own gearbox, they were not particularly strong and tended to self destruct behind higher power engines like ■■■■■■■ etc and even Gardner 6LXB’S! Fuller would be the way to go, though even those had their problems of course.
newmercman:
To answer Ramone’s question, MB parent company Daimler AG also own Freightliner and Western Star.
Now my two cents on the LARF, I would change things up a bit, I’m going to go with a design and engineering team from AEC, Foden, Leyland Motors and Scammell.
The cab would be the Motor Panels one used on the Crusader and ERF European, chassis would be a joint venture between Foden and Scammell, the engine would be a development of the Leyland 0.680 with Foden making the gearbox, axles would come from Leyland.
My masterstroke would be in having the project run by the management team from Dennis, who are the only surviving British manufacturer.
It seems strange that Daimler AG with all that US technology behind them didn`t market Western Star and Freightliner in Europe , do they need a nudge from someone on here to make them see the errors of their ways
Firstly any attempt to sell US types in Euroland runs into all the expense and aggro of the EU type Approval issue.Those regs themselves being drafted as a type of protectionist measure to suit the Euro manufacturers.While the move by Volvo and Merc etc across the pond seems like an insurance policy to get round the issue of US type approval in return and get a piece of the US market.All of which obviously having the win win ( for the Euros ) of putting our historic US component based assembly operations out of the frame,or at least making it much more difficult,as collateral damage.
Which is why,as I’ve said,legislating diesel fuelled trucks out of existence here and extricating ourselves from the Euro type approval regime,combined with Trump’s being less of a push over than the previous US trade and industry regimes in that regard,could be the type of game changing environment that beats the Euro manufacturers at their own game.
That’s ‘if’ we’ve got the National interest motivation to take up the opportunity.Thereby ending the ■■■■■■■■■■ of the Euros,including DAF,in favour of a locally manufactured KW/Westport ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ etc etc based product.History doesn’t look good in that regard.
I thought we were using hindsight to put together a lorry to stop the European invasion?
Now I see Trump mentioned, I thought it was Johnson/Nixon/Carter who were at the helm in those days!
If we’re going to rewrite history using hindsight, then vertical integration is clearly the way to go. Proprietary engine/gearbox assembly is coming to an end now, if we go down that route all we will do is delay the demise of the British lorry.
newmercman:
I thought we were using hindsight to put together a lorry to stop the European invasion?
Now I see Trump mentioned, I thought it was Johnson/Nixon/Carter who were at the helm in those days!
If we’re going to rewrite history using hindsight, then vertical integration is clearly the way to go. Proprietary engine/gearbox assembly is coming to an end now, if we go down that route all we will do is delay the demise of the British lorry.
Coomsey seemed to have moved the topic along to also a question of could it work now and if so how taking a possible new pro UK anti Euro US trade and industry policy into account.In addition to the question what could we have done then with hindsight.While all the signs are that the Anglo/US business model historically works best in the form of assembly of loose outsourced major component supply as opposed to in house.With vertical integration just playing to the strengths of the Euro model.With no reason to think that anything has changed in that regard with the Fuller/Meritor/Hendrickson combination being as relevant now as Fuller/Hendrickson/Rockwell was then.Which leaves the question of Westport ■■■■■■■ v MX/DB/Volvo D13-16/Scania etc in an environment in which we’ve legislated diesel engines out of existence in the UK market as of around 2020 and in which Euro type approval no longer applies to US based ( KW ) cabs/chassis or Fuller transmissions of whatever type.
As for which US regime was to blame in over seeing selling us and themselves out to the Euro invasion that could arguably be blamed on every one of them so far to date.Most recently allowing the tie up between Volvo and GMC and DB and Freightliner etc and Paccar ditching Foden and making DAF top dog over Leyland over here.When it’s not as though the combined brains of the English speaking world couldn’t make a truck.
newmercman:
I thought we were using hindsight to put together a lorry to stop the European invasion?
Now I see Trump mentioned, I thought it was Johnson/Nixon/Carter who were at the helm in those days!
If we’re going to rewrite history using hindsight, then vertical integration is clearly the way to go. Proprietary engine/gearbox assembly is coming to an end now, if we go down that route all we will do is delay the demise of the British lorry.
Obviously not going to try any mechanical input here , I,ve come to the realization that my job in LARF will be toilet cleaner, every company needs one !
Would not the LARF motor that stopped the Euro boys in their tracks 80/90s be essentially the same now ? Is /was that not the case with where we are now. Paul
It needed to be on the drawing board in the early 60s and in the dealers by the late 60s. Once it hit the roads all competition from within needed to be removed, a take it or leave it kind of deal, which is what worked for the foreigners, the only choice they gave you was the colour you wanted it painting.
To win the game you have to play to your opponent’s strengths, but be better at it. In this case we need a lightweight “gaffer’s” version, to take on the F86/80/1418/684/2200, a heavyweight to take out the F88/110/1624/619/2600 and a hooligan to destroy the F89/140/1632 etc.
No need to worry about the EEC, our export market of the former empire would be enough to sustain us as we would have the whole of the UK market to ourselves and remember it was our market that allowed the foreign oiks to prosper as they did.
Now I have to add a couple of team members to the Dennis management, the much missed John (saviem) as Sales Director and Pat Kennett as chief road tester.
newmercman:
It needed to be on the drawing board in the early 60s and in the dealers by the late 60s. Once it hit the roads all competition from within needed to be removed, a take it or leave it kind of deal, which is what worked for the foreigners, the only choice they gave you was the colour you wanted it painting.
To win the game you have to play to your opponent’s strengths, but be better at it. In this case we need a lightweight “gaffer’s” version, to take on the F86/80/1418/684/2200, a heavyweight to take out the F88/110/1624/619/2600 and a hooligan to destroy the F89/140/1632 etc.
No need to worry about the EEC, our export market of the former empire would be enough to sustain us as we would have the whole of the UK market to ourselves and remember it was our market that allowed the foreign oiks to prosper as they did.
Now I have to add a couple of team members to the Dennis management, the much missed John (saviem) as Sales Director and Pat Kennett as chief road tester.
N I should have known better than to put my two pennoth in, would not the LARF motor of the 60s be essentially the same as now? ps while you,re forming a team around you don,t forget the toilet cleaner ! In hopes Paul :
No it would’ve evolved by now, just as the European lot have done, standing still is why we have no industry anymore.
So just to get it right in my head,the LARF of the past will be a different beast to the one that will take on the world today. Which one are your very able team taking on.
Thanks for the start, my toilets will have the Euro boys quaking in their shoes
newmercman:
It needed to be on the drawing board in the early 60s and in the dealers by the late 60s…
Now I have to add a couple of team members to the Dennis management, the much missed John (saviem) as Sales Director and Pat Kennett as chief road tester.
I think you have addressed the main issue- the make-up of the company itself. Any twit, with hindsight, can insert the specification of his favourite 1970s vehicle into the sentence, “This is what we should have been doing in the 1960s”. Of course, 90% of these “What If” threads are filled with that sort of assertion. I would guess that the successful European firms had fully-qualified engineers behind those drawing boards, and in every position of increasing seniority from there. If the company’s important decisions are made by a rabble of over-promoted toolmakers, buyers, salesmen etc, it does not matter what fancy products they try to create, the result will be something they were not qualified to predict.
newmercman:
It needed to be on the drawing board in the early 60s and in the dealers by the late 60s…
Now I have to add a couple of team members to the Dennis management, the much missed John (saviem) as Sales Director and Pat Kennett as chief road tester.
I think you have addressed the main issue- the make-up of the company itself. Any twit, with hindsight, can insert the specification of his favourite 1970s vehicle into the sentence, “This is what we should have been doing in the 1960s”. Of course, 90% of these “What If” threads are filled with that sort of assertion. I would guess that the successful European firms had fully-qualified engineers behind those drawing boards, and in every position of increasing seniority from there. If the company’s important decisions are made by a rabble of over-promoted toolmakers, buyers, salesmen etc, it does not matter what fancy products they try to create, the result will be something they were not qualified to predict.
Could,nt agree with you more ! counter factual is more or less a free for all n the likes of me can come up with anything n defend it with impunity. however it,s looking to me that these guys are making a good stab at it.
More importantly would you advise NA or Turbocharged for my toilets ?
newmercman:
I would go with a twin turbo set up, a light pressure one for normal use, but with a high pressure one to take care of post curry night deliveries.
: