If say in the 50s Leyland, Atkinson,ERF n Foden had merged would we still have a good LARF today ?
I think we would be in exactly the same situation that we are in today: crying into our beer over the failure of the domestic manufacturers. Probably the final answer lies in the British disease, simply appalling management viz:
cav551:
I think we would be in exactly the same situation that we are in today: crying into our beer over the failure of the domestic manufacturers. Probably the final answer lies in the British disease, simply appalling management viz:
Cav thats a little bit scary
Hypothetically a good question and it starts with the decision on MAKE and/or BUY
as the contributors in LARF have contradicting heritages e.g. Foden with own gear-
boxes and assembly was not common with others. What about axles, engines, cabs?
Luc
Macadam-woman:
Hypothetically a good question and it starts with the decision on MAKE and/or BUY
as the contributors in LARF have contradicting heritages e.g. Foden with own gear-
boxes and assembly was not common with others. What about axles, engines, cabs?Luc
Well Luc lets take a stab Leyland engine Foden 12sp both used together n both in house ?
Fair proposal and not bad at all!
Or in general to produce/assemble a LARF:
- Engine: Leyland, Rolls Royce, ■■■■■■■■ Gardner, Detroit, Perkins
- Gearbox: Foden, Fuller, David Brown, ZF, Allison
- Axle: Kirkstall, Hendrickson, Timken
- Cab: Leyland, Foden, Motor Panels, Atkinson, ERF
In which way/sequence the relevant mergers took place? Who ate
who at first, second? Would production-sites be closed? Labour?
Would the EC-market be attacked/affected?
Foden certainly bought and fitted Leyland 680 engines anyway. IIRC Lawrence Dunbar used to run one and there is a picture of it on here somewhere.
Macadam-woman:
Fair proposal and not bad at all!Or in general to produce/assemble a LARF:
- Engine: Leyland, Rolls Royce, ■■■■■■■■ Gardner, Detroit, Perkins
- Gearbox: Foden, Fuller, David Brown, ZF, Allison
- Axle: Kirkstall, Hendrickson, Timken
- Cab: Leyland, Foden, Motor Panels, Atkinson, ERF
In which way/sequence the relevant mergers took place? Who ate
who at first, second? Would production-sites be closed? Labour?
Would the EC-market be attacked/affected?
You buga L theres a lot to consider. I should imagine we have to take some liberties with history to get there. We have hindsight which means we can,t fail ■■
The quickest route we buy out one of the foreigners say early 60s n rebadge, LARF rules, but that may well be cheating, or sound business sense.
We should have been able to take the best of each and make a hybrid. The potential was there anyway, but it didn’t seem to quite happen. Look at the Seddon-Atkinson Strato (Mk 1), with its ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ drive-line and Cabtec ‘Space’ cab. That could have been an absolute winner! But the transmission installation was poor, the build quality shoddy and the cab bore absolutely no resemblance whatsoever on the inside to the superb DAF version of it. They should have given the Space-cab to ERF: they would wouldn’t have wasted it! Robert
robert1952:
We should have been able to take the best of each and make a hybrid. The potential was there anyway, but it didn’t seem to quite happen. Look at the Seddon-Atkinson Strato (Mk 1), with its ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ drive-line and Cabtec ‘Space’ cab. That could have been an absolute winner! But the transmission installation was poor, the build quality shoddy and the cab bore absolutely no resemblance whatsoever on the inside to the superb DAF version of it. They should have given the Space-cab to ERF: they would wouldn’t have wasted it! Robert
So leyland or Foden cab to take on foreigners ?
coomsey:
robert1952:
We should have been able to take the best of each and make a hybrid. The potential was there anyway, but it didn’t seem to quite happen. Look at the Seddon-Atkinson Strato (Mk 1), with its ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ drive-line and Cabtec ‘Space’ cab. That could have been an absolute winner! But the transmission installation was poor, the build quality shoddy and the cab bore absolutely no resemblance whatsoever on the inside to the superb DAF version of it. They should have given the Space-cab to ERF: they would wouldn’t have wasted it! RobertSo leyland or Foden cab to take on foreigners ?
I don’t know about that: Leyland’s Statesider (or was it Stateliner?) version of the T45 cab and Foden’s XL cab weren’t a patch on Cabtec’s Space-cab! Robert
Build QUALITY says it all , school report for them all must try harder, 
they all had the odd good bit engine/gearbox etc but could
they screw them together er lets seeNOMerc-Volvo-Scania etc could not perfect but not far off it,most of
the continentals had a much beter back up at the time so good old team GB got what it deserved. 
-
cav551:
Foden certainly bought and fitted Leyland 680 engines anyway. IIRC Lawrence Dunbar used to run one and there is a picture of it on here somewhere.
Yes Foden certainly did fit the Leyland 680 at the time that Leyland held a 30% shareholding in Foden.
Whilst Leyland did hold shares in other manufacturers it was never going to buy such as ERF and Atkinson because in the 1950s and early 1960s they were not serious competitors to Leyland. At that time Atkinson sold about 1,000 chassis a year, ERF about 1,500 a year. Foden was a bigger company, 2,500 chassis sales annually, but not in the same league as Leyland with sales in the UK of about 6,000 lorry chassis (plus export, plus PSV chassis, plus military orders, plus engine and component sales to other chassis builders). AEC and its group companies was a bit smaller than Leyland in terms of total output.
robert1952:
coomsey:
robert1952:
We should have been able to take the best of each and make a hybrid. The potential was there anyway, but it didn’t seem to quite happen. Look at the Seddon-Atkinson Strato (Mk 1), with its ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ drive-line and Cabtec ‘Space’ cab. That could have been an absolute winner! But the transmission installation was poor, the build quality shoddy and the cab bore absolutely no resemblance whatsoever on the inside to the superb DAF version of it. They should have given the Space-cab to ERF: they would wouldn’t have wasted it! RobertSo leyland or Foden cab to take on foreigners ?
I don’t know about that: Leyland’s Statesider (or was it Stateliner?) version of the T45 cab and Foden’s XL cab weren’t a patch on Cabtec’s Space-cab! Robert
Interstate,too little to late, Strato not a bad motor just that cable gear linkage,same as Foden, no 2 motors the same one would be spot on and you could jump in another and have to wrestle it!
pete smith:
robert1952:
coomsey:
robert1952:
We should have been able to take the best of each and make a hybrid. The potential was there anyway, but it didn’t seem to quite happen. Look at the Seddon-Atkinson Strato (Mk 1), with its ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ drive-line and Cabtec ‘Space’ cab. That could have been an absolute winner! But the transmission installation was poor, the build quality shoddy and the cab bore absolutely no resemblance whatsoever on the inside to the superb DAF version of it. They should have given the Space-cab to ERF: they would wouldn’t have wasted it! RobertSo leyland or Foden cab to take on foreigners ?
I don’t know about that: Leyland’s Statesider (or was it Stateliner?) version of the T45 cab and Foden’s XL cab weren’t a patch on Cabtec’s Space-cab! Robert
Interstate,too little to late, Strato not a bad motor just that cable gear linkage,same as Foden, no 2 motors the same one would be spot on and you could jump in another and have to wrestle it!
That’s the one, Pete! And yes, I agree about the cable linkage in the SA. Robert
Macadam-woman:
Hypothetically a good question and it starts with the decision on MAKE and/or BUY
as the contributors in LARF have contradicting heritages e.g. Foden with own gear-
boxes and assembly was not common with others. What about axles, engines, cabs?Luc
Assembly and rationalisation in a protected market for us was always going to be the only way forward.So standardisation on SA 401 and Bedford TM cabs,Rolls,■■■■■■■ and possibly Detroit 60 series engines,Fuller transmissions,obviously including the effectively automated Fuller development in the form of the I shift,Dana/Rockwell drivelines,in a protected market which put up barriers against imports and insulated us from EU type approval meddling.Given all that I’m certain they mostly,if not all,would have survived.In a similar way that Kenworth’s Australian operations did but with the advantage of even less threat from imports. 
Instead of which we had the ridiculous situation of public money being thrown at privately under invested companies often going in different,often inferior,directions regards specs and cab design.In large part because of that under investment crisis.Which were then allowed to be decimated by uncontrolled open door imports.With,possibly the exception of Peter Foden,those companies managements and successive governments acting like turkeys voting for christmas by supporting such an economically suicidal trade and industry policy. 
Carryfast:
Macadam-woman:
Hypothetically a good question and it starts with the decision on MAKE and/or BUY
as the contributors in LARF have contradicting heritages e.g. Foden with own gear-
boxes and assembly was not common with others. What about axles, engines, cabs?Luc
Assembly and rationalisation in a protected market for us was always going to be the only way forward.So standardisation on SA 401 and Bedford TM cabs,Rolls,■■■■■■■ and possibly Detroit 60 series engines,Fuller transmissions,obviously including the effectively automated Fuller development in the form of the I shift,Dana/Rockwell drivelines,in a protected market which put up barriers against imports and insulated us from EU type approval meddling.Given all that I’m certain they mostly,if not all,would have survived.In a similar way that Kenworth’s Australian operations did but with the advantage of even less threat from imports.
Instead of which we had the ridiculous situation of public money being thrown at privately under invested companies often going in different,often inferior,directions regards specs and cab design.In large part because of that under investment crisis.Which were then allowed to be decimated by uncontrolled open door imports.With,possibly the exception of Peter Foden,those companies managements and successive governments acting like turkeys voting for christmas by supporting such an economically suicidal trade and industry policy.
I can see what you,re saying C but what you,ve got to factor in is with the help of possibly the most knowledgeable in the industry ■■!! we are going to build the LARF which is going to grab the foreigners by the doo dahs n make em wince n stuff the politicians while we,re at it. Be positive Paul
coomsey:
Carryfast:
Assembly and rationalisation in a protected market for us was always going to be the only way forward.So standardisation on SA 401 and Bedford TM cabs,Rolls,■■■■■■■ and possibly Detroit 60 series engines,Fuller transmissions,obviously including the effectively automated Fuller development in the form of the I shift,Dana/Rockwell drivelines,in a protected market which put up barriers against imports and insulated us from EU type approval meddling.Given all that I’m certain they mostly,if not all,would have survived.In a similar way that Kenworth’s Australian operations did but with the advantage of even less threat from imports.Instead of which we had the ridiculous situation of public money being thrown at privately under invested companies often going in different,often inferior,directions regards specs and cab design.In large part because of that under investment crisis.Which were then allowed to be decimated by uncontrolled open door imports.With,possibly the exception of Peter Foden,those companies managements and successive governments acting like turkeys voting for christmas by supporting such an economically suicidal trade and industry policy.
I can see what you,re saying C but what you,ve got to factor in is with the help of possibly the most knowledgeable in the industry ■■!! we are going to build the LARF which is going to grab the foreigners by the doo dahs n make em wince n stuff the politicians while we,re at it. Be positive Paul
We won’t need to grab the foreigners by the doo dahs because our own domestic market is worth more to us than their’s is and we aren’t going to let them in to compete with us in ours. 
In which case Bewick etc get the choice of Rolls/■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ 60 series powered TM or SA 401 cabbed wagon,regardless of the badge on the front,take it or leave it.All backed by public investment which this time will all get paid back because the industry has a captive market in which demand matches supply.Rather than what we had in an over saturated import dominated market in which public money was being used to prop up the domestic industry which was doomed to economic failure in that environment.Let alone one in which the foreign competition then made its own rules up,to suit its own products and imposed them on us.
Carryfast:
coomsey:
Carryfast:
Assembly and rationalisation in a protected market for us was always going to be the only way forward.So standardisation on SA 401 and Bedford TM cabs,Rolls,■■■■■■■ and possibly Detroit 60 series engines,Fuller transmissions,obviously including the effectively automated Fuller development in the form of the I shift,Dana/Rockwell drivelines,in a protected market which put up barriers against imports and insulated us from EU type approval meddling.Given all that I’m certain they mostly,if not all,would have survived.In a similar way that Kenworth’s Australian operations did but with the advantage of even less threat from imports.Instead of which we had the ridiculous situation of public money being thrown at privately under invested companies often going in different,often inferior,directions regards specs and cab design.In large part because of that under investment crisis.Which were then allowed to be decimated by uncontrolled open door imports.With,possibly the exception of Peter Foden,those companies managements and successive governments acting like turkeys voting for christmas by supporting such an economically suicidal trade and industry policy.
I can see what you,re saying C but what you,ve got to factor in is with the help of possibly the most knowledgeable in the industry ■■!! we are going to build the LARF which is going to grab the foreigners by the doo dahs n make em wince n stuff the politicians while we,re at it. Be positive Paul
We won’t need to grab the foreigners by the doo dahs because our own domestic market is worth more to us than their’s is and we aren’t going to let them in to compete with us in ours.
In which case Bewick etc get the choice of Rolls/■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ 60 series powered TM or SA 401 cabbed wagon,regardless of the badge on the front,take it or leave it.All backed by public investment which this time will all get paid back because the industry has a captive market in which demand matches supply.Rather than what we had in an over saturated import dominated market in which public money was being used to prop up the domestic industry which was doomed to economic failure in that environment.Let alone one in which the foreign competition then made its own rules up,to suit its own products and imposed them on us.
C, I,m liking that big time, but what if LARF decides to export Europe would surely be a no no
I would imagine that Leyland would be main man in LARF , lets go with C n suppose that we,re not EU n have stopped imports. Not so far from the truth now. I,m thinking AEC powered rockwell fuller Strato cab ■■ Or would LARF ended up a Leyland. LARF Akky badge /ERF badge/Foden badge even nearer the truth ?