ramone:
Here we go , Kenworths instead of Dafs obviously with the biggest engine available , who cares about productivity ,practability , and profit when you can have masses of chrome and a big bonnet ffs ■■?
It wasnt aimed at you Robert , we are a totally different market to the US and Australia , and have no room on our over congested roads for the likes of forward control Kenworths . They tried to export in the 70s with little success . I`ve understood this thread (probably wrongly) as to have been what we could have produced with the manufacturers and assemblers we had at our disposals quite a few years back. So back then we had AEC , Leyland , Rolls , Gardner engines , no decent cab but a wealth of experience and innovations that were never realised in latter years due mainly to the fact that there was little investment in the future.
coomsey:
You devil gents this is most interesting, no b sh**e. What goes round comes round, could the Euro boys soon be as we were, thinking they dominate n are untouchable, we know the out come of that mind set. Dig n Newmercman n numerous others say reliability comes before mpg. Emissions prevent a new range of British motors taking Euro on but Trumps (non political C) USA seems to be anti /denial global warming. Is this a golden opportunity for LARF,A lorry tariff war is possible we sell none to Euro they sell most if not all to us which might soon become too pricey because of it. LARF make a RELIABLE motor for Britain n could well work in no emission regs USA ?
It would be fair to say that the fortunes of the Euros are highly dependent on the regulatory type approval environment which seems to have been written to suit them best and which,together with other trade policies,cut the old links between us and the rest of the English speaking world.
While the whole emissions issue becomes moot given a large scale switch to alternative fuels.Which could then leave us in the best case situation,of vehicles designed to use a cleaner, already cheaper,more plentiful,fossil based fuel,in an environment where consumption of it is no longer seen as an issue with even further room for price/taxation cuts.With the Euros being lumbered with engine designs specifically designed for and therefore dependent on use of what is increasingly being seen as an increasingly obsolete dirty fuel.
With us back in the position of being able to get back to making ( ideally alternatively fuelled and therefore cleaner ) ■■■■■■■ powered trucks with US based drivelines.It’s not difficult to see how a scenario,in which EU type approval no longer applies to UK registered and made vehicles,let alone an environment in which we use our own legislation to phase out diesel fuelled engines in favour of alternative fuels.Could reverse the situation of Euro ■■■■■■■■■■ of the domestic UK truck market and its supply.
Holey moley the good times? could be on the way back. Regardless of the technical stuff ( I obviously leave that to you that know) who the hell are going to drive these multi geared constant mesh boxes ?
ramone:
Here we go , Kenworths instead of Dafs obviously with the biggest engine available , who cares about productivity ,practability , and profit when you can have masses of chrome and a big bonnet ffs ■■?
It wasnt aimed at you Robert , we are a totally different market to the US and Australia , and have no room on our over congested roads for the likes of forward control Kenworths . They tried to export in the 70s with little success . I`ve understood this thread (probably wrongly) as to have been what we could have produced with the manufacturers and assemblers we had at our disposals quite a few years back. So back then we had AEC , Leyland , Rolls , Gardner engines , no decent cab but a wealth of experience and innovations that were never realised in latter years due mainly to the fact that there was little investment in the future.
R I,m so glad you understand this topic,could you explain it to me, I,ve lost the plot. Paul
ramone:
Here we go , Kenworths instead of Dafs obviously with the biggest engine available , who cares about productivity ,practability , and profit when you can have masses of chrome and a big bonnet ffs ■■?
It wasnt aimed at you Robert , we are a totally different market to the US and Australia , and have no room on our over congested roads for the likes of forward control Kenworths . They tried to export in the 70s with little success . I`ve understood this thread (probably wrongly) as to have been what we could have produced with the manufacturers and assemblers we had at our disposals quite a few years back. So back then we had AEC , Leyland , Rolls , Gardner engines , no decent cab but a wealth of experience and innovations that were never realised in latter years due mainly to the fact that there was little investment in the future.
No probs! Actually, I understood the spirit of the thread the same way as you describe; and I think CF did too earlier on because he suggested a date in the early 'eighties would be a good place to start. Not a bad idea because there were some excellent Brit models on the market then . Cheers, Robert
ramone:
Here we go , Kenworths instead of Dafs obviously with the biggest engine available , who cares about productivity ,practability , and profit when you can have masses of chrome and a big bonnet ffs ■■?
It wasnt aimed at you Robert , we are a totally different market to the US and Australia , and have no room on our over congested roads for the likes of forward control Kenworths . They tried to export in the 70s with little success . I`ve understood this thread (probably wrongly) as to have been what we could have produced with the manufacturers and assemblers we had at our disposals quite a few years back. So back then we had AEC , Leyland , Rolls , Gardner engines , no decent cab but a wealth of experience and innovations that were never realised in latter years due mainly to the fact that there was little investment in the future.
No probs! Actually, I understood the spirit of the thread the same way as you describe; and I think CF did too earlier on because he suggested a date in the early 'eighties would be a good place to start. Not a bad idea because there were some excellent Brit models on the market then . Cheers, Robert
Yes that was the idea.but as the topic moved on n up ,I hope,it started to become apparent to me ,at least, that you need a few basics in there else it seems to go all over the shop. A definite start time for LARF, as Cav n Mac W say who of the 4 is top dog. In house/buy in , who can you buy from. there must be many more. Can,t think of way to resolve, it could take longer than Brexit just to get everybody on the same level play field.
It seems to have morphed into what are LARF going to build post Brexit maybe to the good ? cheers Paul
CLINK ! penny dropped, I thought some technical thing not Commer. Just as loud as I recall em, could be a step too far nowadays, people mumble about church bells n cockerels, might have summat to say about Commer 5 am of a morning.
ramone:
It wasn`t aimed at you Robert , we are a totally different market to the US and Australia , and have no room on our over congested roads for the likes of forward control Kenworths .
Exactly what would be the big difference between an Australian type KW cab over with uk preferred spec 6x2 driveline v Euro type.
coomsey:
Holey moley the good times? could be on the way back. Regardless of the technical stuff ( I obviously leave that to you that know) who the hell are going to drive these multi geared constant mesh boxes ?
The same drivers that drive manuals or I shift now. Bearing in mind that the UK made version of the 18 speed manual is also going to have switchable auto rev matching for those ‘drivers’ who can’t do it for themselves.
coomsey:
Yes that was the idea.but as the topic moved on n up ,I hope,it started to become apparent to me ,at least, that you need a few basics in there else it seems to go all over the shop. A definite start time for LARF, as Cav n Mac W say who of the 4 is top dog. In house/buy in , who can you buy from. there must be many more. Can,t think of way to resolve, it could take longer than Brexit just to get everybody on the same level play field.
It seems to have morphed into what are LARF going to build post Brexit maybe to the good ? cheers Paul
If we must have a top dog we might as well just reduce the group to one well respected name in which case Foden would be as good as any.While we’ve already got all the componentry side sorted in the form of licence manufacture of KW 200 cab,alternative fuelled ■■■■■■■ powered,and Fuller/Rockwell/Dana/Meritor drivelines.
Is it a coincidence that none of the European assemblers survived and the in house manufacturers did ? Iveco ,Daf , MAN, Mercedes ,Renault, Scania and Volvo all build their own engines ,with the first 3 opting for a German auto box as standard for some strange reason. Maybe there was something drastically wrong with the ■■■■■■■ ,Fuller , Rockwell combination which was a favourite to many drivers . I personally never feel totally in control with an auto box with the ZF being imho the worst by far ,but some on here love em. Volvo now control Renault and Scania and MAN are under the same umbrella whos next for the high jump ■■? The choice is dwindling so when Brexit is finally concluded maybe L A R F could be a possibility … not in my lifetime
ramone:
Is it a coincidence that none of the European assemblers survived and the in house manufacturers did ? Iveco ,Daf , MAN, Mercedes ,Renault, Scania and Volvo all build their own engines ,with the first 3 opting for a German auto box as standard for some strange reason. Maybe there was something drastically wrong with the ■■■■■■■ ,Fuller , Rockwell combination which was a favourite to many drivers . I personally never feel totally in control with an auto box with the ZF being imho the worst by far ,but some on here love em. Volvo now control Renault and Scania and MAN are under the same umbrella whos next for the high jump ■■? The choice is dwindling so when Brexit is finally concluded maybe L A R F could be a possibility … not in my lifetime
Mmm, Cu /Fu/Ro set up favourite of USA, I think, aren,t the Euro boys making them have it now ? Trump could put a stop to that malarkey. LARF could n possibly should have that gear here but export to USA? ,n again who of our drivers can manage em ? Post Brexit we can stuff the Euro boys pretty quickly,not in anybodies lifetime on here
Auto boxes I always feel I,m freewheeling 1/2 the time, not how I was taught to drive
ramone:
Is it a coincidence that none of the European assemblers survived and the in house manufacturers did ? Iveco ,Daf , MAN, Mercedes ,Renault, Scania and Volvo all build their own engines ,with the first 3 opting for a German auto box as standard for some strange reason. Maybe there was something drastically wrong with the ■■■■■■■ ,Fuller , Rockwell combination which was a favourite to many drivers . I personally never feel totally in control with an auto box with the ZF being imho the worst by far ,but some on here love em. Volvo now control Renault and Scania and MAN are under the same umbrella whos next for the high jump ■■? The choice is dwindling so when Brexit is finally concluded maybe L A R F could be a possibility … not in my lifetime
Mmm, Cu /Fu/Ro set up favourite of USA, I think, aren,t the Euro boys making them have it now ? Trump could put a stop to that malarkey. LARF could n possibly should have that gear here but export to USA? ,n again who of our drivers can manage em ? Post Brexit we can stuff the Euro boys pretty quickly,not in anybodies lifetime on here
Auto boxes I always feel I,m freewheeling 1/2 the time, not how I was taught to drive
Volvo are over there now (White) and I think Mercedes own 1 of the big players not sure which, NMM would probably be able to tell us . Not sure if Scania are though and Daf owned by Paccar don`t seem to be marketed there.
ramone:
Is it a coincidence that none of the European assemblers survived and the in house manufacturers did ? Iveco ,Daf , MAN, Mercedes ,Renault, Scania and Volvo all build their own engines ,with the first 3 opting for a German auto box as standard for some strange reason. Maybe there was something drastically wrong with the ■■■■■■■ ,Fuller , Rockwell combination which was a favourite to many drivers . I personally never feel totally in control with an auto box with the ZF being imho the worst by far ,but some on here love em. Volvo now control Renault and Scania and MAN are under the same umbrella whos next for the high jump ■■? The choice is dwindling so when Brexit is finally concluded maybe L A R F could be a possibility … not in my lifetime
Mmm, Cu /Fu/Ro set up favourite of USA, I think, aren,t the Euro boys making them have it now ? Trump could put a stop to that malarkey. LARF could n possibly should have that gear here but export to USA? ,n again who of our drivers can manage em ? Post Brexit we can stuff the Euro boys pretty quickly,not in anybodies lifetime on here
Auto boxes I always feel I,m freewheeling 1/2 the time, not how I was taught to drive
Volvo are over there now (White) and I think Mercedes own 1 of the big players not sure which, NMM would probably be able to tell us . Not sure if Scania are though and Daf owned by Paccar don`t seem to be marketed there.
Start with the odd motor here n there ( big boys don,t take much notice) n then stuff em big time (big boys no more) awfully familiar
coomsey:
Yes that was the idea.but as the topic moved on n up ,I hope,it started to become apparent to me ,at least, that you need a few basics in there else it seems to go all over the shop. A definite start time for LARF, as Cav n Mac W say who of the 4 is top dog. In house/buy in , who can you buy from. there must be many more. Can,t think of way to resolve, it could take longer than Brexit just to get everybody on the same level play field.
It seems to have morphed into what are LARF going to build post Brexit maybe to the good ? cheers Paul
If we must have a top dog we might as well just reduce the group to one well respected name in which case Foden would be as good as any.While we’ve already got all the componentry side sorted in the form of licence manufacture of KW 200 cab,alternative fuelled ■■■■■■■ powered,and Fuller/Rockwell/Dana/Meritor drivelines.
Food for thought, we all know 1 man on here that would,nt be to happy though, all answers to P O Box 1 ■■■■■■■
ramone:
Is it a coincidence that none of the European assemblers survived and the in house manufacturers did ? Iveco ,Daf , MAN, Mercedes ,Renault, Scania and Volvo all build their own engines ,with the first 3 opting for a German auto box as standard for some strange reason. Maybe there was something drastically wrong with the ■■■■■■■ ,Fuller , Rockwell combination which was a favourite to many drivers . I personally never feel totally in control with an auto box with the ZF being imho the worst by far ,but some on here love em. Volvo now control Renault and Scania and MAN are under the same umbrella whos next for the high jump ■■? The choice is dwindling so when Brexit is finally concluded maybe L A R F could be a possibility … not in my lifetime
Great conclusion! It has to do with warranty and most operators had their experiences with a big NO on claims in case of assembled (which in fact are all?), as it was not the engine but the most certainly the gearbox and it wasnot the gearbox but the axles-ratio and so on…hence the firm inhouse-producers of components took the market.
On the suggestion to take Foden as the big dog…well it was absorbed in DAF/Leyland and finally Paccar with hardly visible examples of current existence?
Again, Leyland/Foden (strong in world markets) and Atkinson/ERF (strong in homeland and special export-markets) are the bones to chew on
ramone:
Is it a coincidence that none of the European assemblers survived and the in house manufacturers did ? Iveco ,Daf , MAN, Mercedes ,Renault, Scania and Volvo all build their own engines ,with the first 3 opting for a German auto box as standard for some strange reason. Maybe there was something drastically wrong with the ■■■■■■■ ,Fuller , Rockwell combination which was a favourite to many drivers . I personally never feel totally in control with an auto box with the ZF being imho the worst by far ,but some on here love em. Volvo now control Renault and Scania and MAN are under the same umbrella whos next for the high jump ■■? The choice is dwindling so when Brexit is finally concluded maybe L A R F could be a possibility … not in my lifetime
Great conclusion! It has to do with warranty and most operators had their experiences with a big NO on claims in case of assembled (which in fact are all?), as it was not the engine but the most certainly the gearbox and it wasnot the gearbox but the axles-ratio and so on…hence the firm inhouse-producers of components took the market.
On the suggestion to take Foden as the big dog…well it was absorbed in DAF/Leyland and finally Paccar with hardly visible examples of current existence?
Again, Leyland/Foden (strong in world markets) and Atkinson/ERF (strong in homeland and special export-markets) are the bones to chew on
Luc
In our case the typical ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ combination was never exactly a warranty or performance liability to us.Unlike some of our in house disasters like the AEC V8 and Leyland 500 among other weak/poor driveline componentry.So its anyone’s guess where the idea of anything supposedly ‘wrong’ with the former comes from.
As opposed to Rolls Eagle and ■■■■■■■ options combined with the usual US based driveline components described above being virtually bullet proof.In addition to the advantage that,unlike in house,the costs of a lemon design and fixing it are ultimately picked up by the supplier not the assembler.While the assembler is then free to choose another alternative from the range or go elsewhere.Although agreed in this case realistically the outsourced licence manufactured options would probably be a case of putting all of our eggs in one basket of ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ etc.Which seems no bad thing with all being proven durable designs in one way or another.Including in this case a return of an updated alternative fuelled spark ignition version of the N14 among other Westport options including the M11.
While I don’t think that the Foden name was ever less well respected than Leyland,Atkinson or ERF in the domestic market.Except for the plastic cabs issue which also applied to ERF and which obviously wouldn’t apply now anyway.The fact is it’s not difficult to see how removal of Euro type approval for us could easily give back the initiative to domestic truck manufacturing here.Especially given the clean sheet of diesel engines being legislated out of existence here and all of which do able by around 2020 given the will to do it.
N what were wrong with TS 5/7 ?
Actually, I understood the spirit of the thread the same way as you describe; and I think CF did too earlier on because he suggested a date in the early 'eighties would be a good place to start. Not a bad idea because there were some excellent Brit models on the market then 
. Cheers, Robert