Big problem is sunglasses and scanias.
Had one in the other night with a defect for low coolant!!!
Dont think he had ever heard the “F” word
Probably went home and told his mummy that a nasty man in the garage at work told him to go home and grow a pair of balls.
That’s the problem no matter what system you use, free market, communist, union or a free for all. The survival of the fittest will always be the outcome.
There will always be those that are more ‘equal’ than others in a union environment for that reason.
There was a time when unions were necessary, but that time has long gone.
The way things are moving on in the world, the lorry driver is falling further down the food chain, it is going from being a working class position to one that is done by cheaper immigrant labour, at the moment that’s Eastern Europeans, in years to come it will be Indians and Asians (until their own economies overtake ours) then it will be Africans, then there will be driverless lorries, it’s a natural ‘law of the jungle’ progression.
Or we could all unionise and stand together, forcing the global economy to use an uneconomical method of transporting goods, because we like being lorry drivers.
Carryfast:
kr79:
This co op thing is nothing like a union all they are doing is cutting out the middle man and been a group it gives them the chance to go for bigger firms that would rather call up one person to arange drivers rather than a dozen freelancers. Good luck to them.
Protecting and safegaurding your own industrys is communism.
Great in theroy but not in real life.I think that the US economic policy at least up to the mid 1970’s showed that protecting your own industry from outside competition is anything but communism.
If you read the description provided concerning the aims of the co operative in question one of those aims is to stop the issue of wage levels being under cut.Which was always the first and foremost aim of any union worth the name.
If you read it it says for the co opreative to work individual members musnt drop there rates theres nothing they can do to stop competitors charging what they want.
They are making more as drivers as other than admin costs they dont need to pay a wage to run an office full of smarmy oiks who wear to much hair gel.
kr79:
Carryfast:
kr79:
This co op thing is nothing like a union all they are doing is cutting out the middle man and been a group it gives them the chance to go for bigger firms that would rather call up one person to arange drivers rather than a dozen freelancers. Good luck to them.
Protecting and safegaurding your own industrys is communism.
Great in theroy but not in real life.I think that the US economic policy at least up to the mid 1970’s showed that protecting your own industry from outside competition is anything but communism.
If you read the description provided concerning the aims of the co operative in question one of those aims is to stop the issue of wage levels being under cut.Which was always the first and foremost aim of any union worth the name.
If you read it it says for the co opreative to work individual members musnt drop there rates theres nothing they can do to stop competitors charging what they want.
Which is exactly what I’ve been saying.The answer to the OP’s question is if you want to earn as much as possible then you need to work as part of a ‘co operative’ with the aim of not undercutting each other on wage rates in an economy that’s protected from the use of imported or outsourced cheap foreign and/or scab labour.Which is a reasonable description of the main aims of trade unions from their outset.The surprising thing is how the union movement didn’t evolve into that logical conclusion of co operatives becoming the employer and offering the services of it’s members on an agency type basis.With the idea only now just starting to be thought of.Which has obviously set the working classes back years.
However assuming that the idea took off it would obviously go against all the ideas that those like nmm believe in which seems to be the typically economically suicidal idea that economics and money are more important than people and can work without people being the most important component in the system.Which is all part of that same issue that robots and/or cheap labour doesn’t/can’t buy cars or any other product because robots aren’t consumers of products and prices under that system obviously outrun incomes to an ever increasing amount.In which case,just as Ford could have told you,the capitalist system will eat itself alive and destroy itself. 
Weeto you are spot on mate I own my own truck and have been on a decent contract since 2008.In the last 12 months I have been finding it tougher than ever diesel prices are near enough or even more expensive than joe public pay and you can only get 14 day payment terms and now my customer is paying me on 60 days.Service and maintenance is a joke the prices have gone from 18 ph to 38 ph tyres and parts cost a fortune and some of the rates other owner drivers are working for are a joke and if they put the price up the big boys are in there to undercut them.I haven’t put my price up since 2010 and in march fuel shot up so I put a surcharge off 2 pound a day on my invoice and straight away they told me no chance.I looked into putting other trucks on the road but how much it cost you to employ someone (insurance,n i ,buying and running the truck is near impossible holiday pay and then paying someone to do their job you just can’t get the rates to pay these drivers who deserve a good wage that’s why people go for cheap labour it’s a vicious circle and a lot of the better haulage companies that payed the wages are no longer here.
A l c:
Weeto you are spot on mate I own my own truck and have been on a decent contract since 2008.In the last 12 months I have been finding it tougher than ever diesel prices are near enough or even more expensive than joe public pay and you can only get 14 day payment terms and now my customer is paying me on 60 days.Service and maintenance is a joke the prices have gone from 18 ph to 38 ph tyres and parts cost a fortune and some of the rates other owner drivers are working for are a joke and if they put the price up the big boys are in there to undercut them.I haven’t put my price up since 2010 and in march fuel shot up so I put a surcharge off 2 pound a day on my invoice and straight away they told me no chance.I looked into putting other trucks on the road but how much it cost you to employ someone (insurance,n i ,buying and running the truck is near impossible holiday pay and then paying someone to do their job you just can’t get the rates to pay these drivers who deserve a good wage that’s why people go for cheap labour it’s a vicious circle and a lot of the better haulage companies that payed the wages are no longer here.
Call me crazy, but if you can’t get a £2 per day increase on your rates, why would you want to put more trucks on the road?
I think that one of the problems unions would have had years ago is the lack of the internet. Currently im working on the implementation of a website that will allow all potential employers to contact drivers individually or group wise by text. The drivers can accept a job by text and this will update the website in real time. The billing is then sorted out by the website according to the preferences of the employer eg national billing or local billing, individuals invoicing or group invoicing. This is not something that was available even 10 years ago.
NMM has a point. As the job is not seen as a skilled job the race to the bottom has started. without trying to thank the EU in any way the introduction of the driver CPC will stop alot of the influx of cheap/imported or even scab labour because as an employer/agency/co-op you have to be sure that from sept 2014 the person sat behind the wheel has their CPC. At the moment we use the DSA website as cards could be forged etc. I am not sure how we would be able to confirm that the person driving has their CPC unless their details are available on this website. Good companies will not take a risk as they do insist on due diligence before using a driver.
Maybe we can stop the race to the bottom but to improve rates we will have to offer extra to anyone who wants to employ us.
Scanner:
A l c:
Weeto you are spot on mate I own my own truck and have been on a decent contract since 2008.In the last 12 months I have been finding it tougher than ever diesel prices are near enough or even more expensive than joe public pay and you can only get 14 day payment terms and now my customer is paying me on 60 days.Service and maintenance is a joke the prices have gone from 18 ph to 38 ph tyres and parts cost a fortune and some of the rates other owner drivers are working for are a joke and if they put the price up the big boys are in there to undercut them.I haven’t put my price up since 2010 and in march fuel shot up so I put a surcharge off 2 pound a day on my invoice and straight away they told me no chance.I looked into putting other trucks on the road but how much it cost you to employ someone (insurance,n i ,buying and running the truck is near impossible holiday pay and then paying someone to do their job you just can’t get the rates to pay these drivers who deserve a good wage that’s why people go for cheap labour it’s a vicious circle and a lot of the better haulage companies that payed the wages are no longer here.Call me crazy, but if you can’t get a £2 per day increase on your rates, why would you want to put more trucks on the road?
That was couple of years ago scanner wouldn’t dream of it know I wish I could do something else .To be honest if I have time off now I pay mates cash and they ■■■■■■ my hand off because they are working all hours for peanuts without a choice
A l c:
Scanner:
A l c:
Weeto you are spot on mate I own my own truck and have been on a decent contract since 2008.In the last 12 months I have been finding it tougher than ever diesel prices are near enough or even more expensive than joe public pay and you can only get 14 day payment terms and now my customer is paying me on 60 days.Service and maintenance is a joke the prices have gone from 18 ph to 38 ph tyres and parts cost a fortune and some of the rates other owner drivers are working for are a joke and if they put the price up the big boys are in there to undercut them.I haven’t put my price up since 2010 and in march fuel shot up so I put a surcharge off 2 pound a day on my invoice and straight away they told me no chance.I looked into putting other trucks on the road but how much it cost you to employ someone (insurance,n i ,buying and running the truck is near impossible holiday pay and then paying someone to do their job you just can’t get the rates to pay these drivers who deserve a good wage that’s why people go for cheap labour it’s a vicious circle and a lot of the better haulage companies that payed the wages are no longer here.Call me crazy, but if you can’t get a £2 per day increase on your rates, why would you want to put more trucks on the road?
That was couple of years ago scanner wouldn’t dream of it know I wish I could do something else .To be honest if I have time off now I pay mates cash and they ■■■■■■ my hand off because they are working all hours for peanuts without a choice
Ah, I see. I hope things improve for you mate.
meatthetrucker:
I think that one of the problems unions would have had years ago is the lack of the internet. Currently im working on the implementation of a website that will allow all potential employers to contact drivers individually or group wise by text. The drivers can accept a job by text and this will update the website in real time. The billing is then sorted out by the website according to the preferences of the employer eg national billing or local billing, individuals invoicing or group invoicing. This is not something that was available even 10 years ago.NMM has a point. As the job is not seen as a skilled job the race to the bottom has started. without trying to thank the EU in any way the introduction of the driver CPC will stop alot of the influx of cheap/imported or even scab labour because as an employer/agency/co-op you have to be sure that from sept 2014 the person sat behind the wheel has their CPC. At the moment we use the DSA website as cards could be forged etc. I am not sure how we would be able to confirm that the person driving has their CPC unless their details are available on this website. Good companies will not take a risk as they do insist on due diligence before using a driver.
Maybe we can stop the race to the bottom but to improve rates we will have to offer extra to anyone who wants to employ us.
The idea of doing more to earn more isn’t the same thing as maintaining incomes in line with price increases.In reality what that idea actually means is doing more to earn less in real terms because firstly prices have been outrunning incomes for existing work levels to start with.There’s been loads of smoke and mirrors used by employers and governments over the years in that regard all based on the idea of getting more productivety from workers for less pay in real terms which then results in less workers being required and an increase in supply of workers v demand.
While even in times of wage increases what can look like an ‘increase’ in so called ‘hourly’ rates have often been a case of wage cuts in real terms because those rises often came at the expense of strings being attached to the deal in regards to ‘more flexibility’ in the form of adding more ‘types’ of job to the original requirement and/or more productivety being expected within the existing working time.
As for the question of wether the DCPC will make much difference to the issue of driver supply and demand in the form of imported cheap labour and/or those who don’t want to join the idea of drivers’/workers’ self run co operatives only time will tell.However the situation in the economy as a whole and the fact that no one can actually fail the DCPC they only need to attend the course seems to say it all at present.
There’s only one way that the economy can climb it’s way out of the hole it’s dug itself into and that’s for the idea of workers self run agency co operatives,in which they set and maintain their own income expectations evolving and taking over fom the probably now outdated idea of unions negotiating in an environment of direct employment,and for people to turn their backs on those with nmm’s economically suicidal ideas concerning meneterism and global free market economics.
This whole topic really gets to the heart of the issues as to why the economy is where it is now.
Bking:
Big problem is sunglasses and scanias.Had one in the other night with a defect for low coolant!!!
Dont think he had ever heard the “F” word
Probably went home and told his mummy that a nasty man in the garage at work told him to go home and grow a pair of balls.
Where I work we are not allowed to top up any fluids change bulbs or even enter the workshop without ringing a bell, mad!
A device has had to be fitted to the clutch fluid reservoir to prevent it being filled with screen wash sad but true, I can’t imagine a good number of my colleagues being able to do anything other than backing onto a bay at the end of one motorway or another (usually crashing into something) the skillset of the modern driver is less than half of what it once was, the job is un-skilled and attracts the pay of un-skilled work.
Large hauliers who run night and day ever increasing overheads agencies un-controlled migration and an endless supply of steering wheel attendants ensure poor pay for the foreseeable future.
Carryfast:
There’s only one way that the economy can climb it’s way out of the hole it’s dug itself into and that’s for the idea of workers self run agency co operatives,in which they set and maintain their own income expectations evolving and taking over fom the probably now outdated idea of unions negotiating in an environment of direct employment,and for people to turn their backs on those with nmm’s economically suicidal ideas concerning meneterism and global free market economics.
I really don’t see this being any different from a full blown agency when it comes down to it. After all, that’s how most agencies started : ex driver setting up shop, taking the cream contracts and poaching the good drivers.
MTTs driver “co-op” may sound like a good idea on the face of it, but what happens when you get to January and there are only 1 or 2 shifts available per day? Who decides who works and who doesn’t? Even in proper agencies where the regular drivers have all known each other for years this time of year always ALWAYS causes conflict: “why is x working when I’m not?”. Also, how do you deal with scenarios where the client asks for a certain driver by name? Remember the client gets what the client wants if you want to keep their business so you’re then left with one of your drivers getting no work because they want to use the other guy.
You might think you know them well and you’re all good friends but you only ever get to see someone’s true colours when it comes to money. Business and friends do not go well together. It’s a recipe for disaster and huge fall-outs imho. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Rob K:
…when people are happy to work for buttons?
buttons is a very subjective term. £250 a week is a great wage for some, others wouldn’t get out of bed unless it paid £500 a week. But you know this sureley ?
Rob K:
I’ll tell you what the problem is : It’s not the foreigners “stealing all our jobs”, it’s actually all these stupid newbies that are flooding the market.…~~…
Supply and demand you say? GTFO please. If there was demand then the rates would be increasing or at least holding steady. As they’re not (and in fact heading south) then demand = 0, supply = too high.
You done a good job of explaining it yourself there. GTFO please (you see what i did there !!). This is typical Neaderthal driver desk thumping tripe, i’d of expected more from you. Maybe i expected to much.
I’d of found a question like…how as a good experienced driver can you command a premium over new and inexperienced drivers ? a good question. Not that i’d know as i aint to hot !! But i’d like to find out…
Rob K:
Carryfast:
There’s only one way that the economy can climb it’s way out of the hole it’s dug itself into and that’s for the idea of workers self run agency co operatives,in which they set and maintain their own income expectations evolving and taking over fom the probably now outdated idea of unions negotiating in an environment of direct employment,and for people to turn their backs on those with nmm’s economically suicidal ideas concerning meneterism and global free market economics.I really don’t see this being any different from a full blown agency when it comes down to it. After all, that’s how most agencies started : ex driver setting up shop, taking the cream contracts and poaching the good drivers.
MTTs driver “co-op” may sound like a good idea on the face of it, but what happens when you get to January and there are only 1 or 2 shifts available per day? Who decides who works and who doesn’t? Even in proper agencies where the regular drivers have all known each other for years this time of year always ALWAYS causes conflict: “why is x working when I’m not?”. Also, how do you deal with scenarios where the client asks for a certain driver by name? Remember the client gets what the client wants if you want to keep their business so you’re then left with one of your drivers getting no work because they want to use the other guy.
You might think you know them well and you’re all good friends but you only ever get to see someone’s true colours when it comes to money. Business and friends do not go well together. It’s a recipe for disaster and huge fall-outs imho. Enjoy it while it lasts.
There’s probably always likely to be flaws in whatever type of system humans create.However the need for a shift in the basic wage structure,from one in which the employer tells the worker what the wage rate will be to one in which it’s a case of vice versa and in which it’s in everyone’s interest,in the economy as a whole,that no one undercuts any one else,including in the form of cheap imported goods and labour and/or large scale reliance on robots,or nothing gets done,is probably going to be the only way that the economy will get back on track in the long term.
It’s either that or nmm’s economically suicidal scenario of the race to the bottom reaching it’s logical conclusion will obviously eventually win out.At which point we end up in a similar,but even ( much ) worse,situation than Greece is at present. 
stevieboy308:
Very poor rob, I expected better from you!
My thoughts as well Rob, What you like you pesky hair pulling rascal! Tsssschhhh you can do better than that with a controversial post and only 5 pages long, come on this needs to be double numbers by now, hence my post to help it along! 
Rob K:
I already do/am but I’ve had to go back driving to pay for health care. Strangely enough, despite me also needing to dig my licence out of the drawer and “blow the dust” off it I have had no issues finding good paying work without needing to work for free like your good self.
Epic fail Rob, I wonder if the people, in the new game you are trying, should take your exact attitude towards you? Perhaps you are undercutting them, it wouldn’t be the first time an older person has done that to younger people in my personal experience.
We have a new guy at work start this week, took 2 grand less than my start wage in the middle of the recession to get the same role type job! Paid off the mortgage and has no kids at home, great for him. But that don’t help our younger guys who are trying to buy houses and having children to pay for does it. As he has effectively destroyed our chances of pay rises in one hit, as its proved to the boss there are people who are willing to do our work for less. Our pay rises like everyone on here have been below inflation and now with the new encouragement for the boss, long may the tradition continue 
And don’t get me started on what we have to do to maintain our employment that makes the DCPC look like a free pick a crayola crayon colour drawing test!
Rob K:
now [zb] right off and go back to whatever mundane job you came from please
Perhaps the people in your new venture should tell you to GTFO and you should follow your own advice even?! 
You and some of the drivers (not all of them though, but I am going to include my own father in this statement) of the previous generation need to look in the mirror at yourselves and lay blame at your own doorstep first and foremost before we start on the Newbies.
Weren’t you the ones who threw away the full time jobs to go on the agency to rip the ■■■ end of companies on the rates you got in the nineties etc (and still boast about■■?). And most of you didn’t want full time work as the agency was paying too much or only wanted to work certain hours, it’s called greed I think the word you are looking for to describe yourselves.
So the companies changed their stance in a simplistic way, can’t find full timers willing to work for us, may as well change the workforce to agency only and alas we have the situation today where there are not many full timer positions abound are there. As the demand wasn’t really filled, so it had to be supplemented by something else. Unfortuately we have played straight into the big companies hands through CHOICE!
This attitude has worked to the companies advantage and now you moan about it…WTF give me a break, you raped and then killed the golden goose and have now paid the price, but also included all of us future generations in it too, brilliant!
You was the generation who started this ■■■■ and so you must suffer it with us. That’s only fair isn’t it, Big Dave Camoron would say we’re all in it together you know!!! 
Alas now the wind has changed, the companies have wised up to those old rates and conditions, have the power to dictate the terms and that doesn’t include the current economic circumstances we are creating for ourselves as a country, so we now have the situation that we call life in 2013.
I’ll say this Rob, I have been a little hard on you above.
Fair enough you want a change away from driving and you’ve been a clever enough to do it.
So why can’t we do the same and leave our current careers for driving and make that change to make ourselves better. Now some would say your above quotes are starting too look hypocritical and contradictory on what you have posted from originally and thereafter above.
However, to do well in this world you have to adapt and change to what you have got to do.
You know my bankground, as you called me a Troll about me describing my true rates as a professional engineer once. Yep they are still less than £100 a shift and my shift ain’t 8 hours I can tell you, it’s usually a lot longer, some jobs last longer than a 15 hour duty time that’s for sure!
However down my way I’d be doing less hours and potentially earning way more as a lorry driver, or about the same as I am on now, but definitely for less hours.
I know some lorry drivers find that hard to believe (as a lot are self pitying). But trust me haulage is not the only industry to do long hours by a long shot, I can reel about 4 off in one hit, as most of us can, who have come from other industries before driving.
I’d be stupid to not make that change to lorry driving wouldn’t I? A real idiot to not get a less stressful job paying more/the same for less hours wouldn’t I in all honesty
So I will take do that and if I have to go back to engineering then I will. But I doubt it, as like every other industry its all changing, you have to embrace it or you are going to severely struggle.
And like that old guy I described above with our wage examples, if I can comfortably live on £10/hr driving for what I do and you can’t…Then I am sorry I have to be selfish now and do what’s best for me. ■■■■ I know but hey the previous generations have brought up this attitude, so I can’t break it can I, as my elder have brought me up so well, ■■■■ the collective only worry about the individual. You reap what you sow, coud never be a better saying at this moment
In 35 years time it will most probably happen to me, as it is happening to you, where I get worried by the new generation coming behind me and “stealing my precious job attitude”.
However that is the circle of life, you are coming to the end of your career and there will always be plenty of humans behind us that will fall into our shoes and do whatever role is asked of them. Unfortunately we are not htat important as we think we are…(even the Great Rob K “Tnet funny handshake clique”) we are all replaceable and you have to come to terms with that, it’s a bit like death, it’s enevitable. 
When I get to the point of how you are feeling today. I sincerely hope by then my savings come in and maybe some of my pensions, if they survive the test of time and I quit before it all gets on top of me!
Best of luck with your changes, but please accept that rebounder and newbies are coming into to pick up the pieces and natural selection jobs that are left behind (be it those that have died, retrained, retired) and there ain’t jot you can do about it or say to change it.
Best of luck Rob. I sincerely hope the new role does go well for you in all seriousness and you don’t have someone tell you to GTFO.
Take care out there bud.
C
Constantine:
We have a new guy at work start this week, took 2 grand less than my start wage in the middle of the recession to get the same role type job! Paid off the mortgage and has no kids at home, great for him. But that don’t help our younger guys who are trying to buy houses and having children to pay for does it. As he has effectively destroyed our chances of pay rises in one hit, as its proved to the boss there are people who are willing to do our work for less. Our pay rises like everyone on here have been below inflation and now with the new encouragement for the boss, long may the tradition continue
So you have a “scab” at your company who is sending your wages south but yet you’re quite happy to sit back and do nothing? In the past people like that often find themselves having more “accidents” than everyone else…
You and some of the drivers (not all of them though, but I am going to include my own father in this statement) of the previous generation need to look in the mirror at yourselves and lay blame at your own doorstep first and foremost before we start on the Newbies.
Weren’t you the ones who threw away the full time jobs to go on the agency to rip the ■■■ end of companies on the rates you got in the nineties etc (and still boast about■■?). And most of you didn’t want full time work as the agency was paying too much or only wanted to work certain hours, it’s called greed I think the word you are looking for to describe yourselves.
So the companies changed their stance in a simplistic way, can’t find full timers willing to work for us, may as well change the workforce to agency only and alas we have the situation today where there are not many full timer positions abound are there. As the demand wasn’t really filled, so it had to be supplemented by something else. Unfortuately we have played straight into the big companies hands through CHOICE!
This attitude has worked to the companies advantage and now you moan about it…WTF give me a break, you raped and then killed the golden goose and have now paid the price, but also included all of us future generations in it too, brilliant!
That’s so far from the truth it’s ridiculous. This killing of the golden goose as you put it was nothing of the sort. Agencies are and always will be a necessary evil to supply firms with labour “on demand” when the need arises. You get a premium because it’s temporary work and you have essentially zero rights and that quite rightly commands a premium over a full-timer. The “golden goose” probably works out at roughly the same cost as a PAYE driver once you factor in job security (arguable), holidays, ssp, maternity, NI, tax and all the other perks of being a full-timer. I don’t understand why people don’t get this. People seem to have a very short sight and go all frothy when they see big hourly rates being touted about by agency workers and the self-employed without bothering to look at the big picture, such as there being no job security and potentially going without any work for months in winter.
Oh and don’t even start with the “why should we give a ■■■■ about you when you tell us to GTFO” rubbish. Who were the ones who started this? That’s right, the new kids coming into the industry carving the job up and working for buttons! Do you see them giving a ■■■■ about putting us out of work? No! So why the ■■■■ should we give a ■■■■ about them? It works both ways chap. They are the ones who are driving the industry into the ground, not us. I’m sure they’ll all be proud of themselves and congratulating each other in 5-10yrs time when the highest rate anyone will get for driving an artic with be £6.19/hr.
What we need is a Union to get rid of these scabs! 
First of all, just in case I start receiving hate mail, it isn’t as Carryfast suggests, my global free market economy!
I just happen to be on the planet at the same time as a free market economy, because of that I try my best to get the best for myself in those conditions. If I wake up tomorrow in a unionised world, I’ll change strategy to try to get the best from that too.
It’s like a game of poker, you have to play the cards you’re dealt.
Do I think the current system is flawed? Yes I do, but so was the system when industry was under union control. Do I have the answer to the perfect world? No I don’t, but I know for sure that under whichever system is used, if you offer more value than the next man then you will be chosen ahead of him.
More value doesn’t always mean cheaper either, which is a point a lot of people seem to miss.
Here’s something that Carryfast appears to conveniently forget. Pensions…
So we’re all working for union rates, good money, good hours etc etc. We retire at 65 after 40+yrs service to our union. Our pension will be related to our working wages, life expectancy has improved, so we get paid our pensions for, say fifteen years.
Where is that money going to come from?
From the stock market? No that’s capitalist greed, which cannot function under union controlled world trade, everything is controlled, so there’s no gamble, no gamble, no point trading in stocks.
So the union will pay it, by increasing the rates of the current workers to incorporate the added pension costs. Then prices will need to be raised by industry to cover this increase, all of a sudden the pension isn’t worth as much in real terms.
Unions are, in effect, a giant pyramid scheme, the ones who get in early make a ton of money, the ones that come later, or are not allowed in (closed shop) get SFA.
The whole thing is exactly the same as capitalism, except under unions, instead of entrepreneurs rising to the top, it’s people with an entitlement mentality.
The current system is far from perfect, but it’s also a hell of a lot better than letting the unions have control.
newmercman:
Here’s something that Carryfast appears to conveniently forget. Pensions…So we’re all working for union rates, good money, good hours etc etc. We retire at 65 after 40+yrs service to our union. Our pension will be related to our working wages, life expectancy has improved, so we get paid our pensions for, say fifteen years.
Where is that money going to come from?
From the stock market? No that’s capitalist greed, which cannot function under union controlled world trade, everything is controlled, so there’s no gamble, no gamble, no point trading in stocks.
So the union will pay it, by increasing the rates of the current workers to incorporate the added pension costs. Then prices will need to be raised by industry to cover this increase, all of a sudden the pension isn’t worth as much in real terms.
Unions are, in effect, a giant pyramid scheme, the ones who get in early make a ton of money, the ones that come later, or are not allowed in (closed shop) get SFA.
The whole thing is exactly the same as capitalism, except under unions, instead of entrepreneurs rising to the top, it’s people with an entitlement mentality.
The current system is far from perfect, but it’s also a hell of a lot better than letting the unions have control.
You still seem to have some weird idea that an organised workforce with just the aim of looking after wage rates on a protectionist collective basis,in order to keep wage rates high enough to cover every cost faced by that workforce,including retirement provision,is somehow not compatible with true capitalism when the US economy at least up to the pre Reaganite era proves that the two things are totally compatible.
It’s what we’ve got now in the global free market economy,since the Reaganite and Thatcherite ‘reforms’ of the western industrialised economies,which is becoming ever closer to the type of extreme in which the heads of society,like the bankers and politicians etc etc are effectively parasites living off the profits of cheap labour and are a lot more equal than the nation’s workers ideology that has always been a feature of the Communist system.
Which is why the average banker or politician will retire early on a massive pension while at the same time telling the workers that they will need to save more out of their meagre wages and work longer into their 70’s to pay for their ‘retirement’.As far as I know capitalism means that there’s no such thing as a free lunch and that includes the wages required for workers to pay for a decent retirement provision and health care cover etc etc and there’s no way that workers will be able to cover all those costs without passing those costs on into the economy in the form of wage demands.Just like there’s no way that a modern industrial economy can sustain economic growth without the demand for products which can only happen if wage levels are kept high enough to the provide the required levels of disposable incomes.
All of which can’t happen if workers are undercutting each other in terms of wage rates and if the government and employers are rigging the labour market by importing goods and labour to take advantage of the cheap labour opportunities provided by East European workers and Communist countries like China etc etc.
Rob K:
So you have a “scab” at your company who is sending your wages south but yet you’re quite happy to sit back and do nothing? In the past people like that often find themselves having more “accidents” than everyone else…
Hey Rob,
I think scab is a harsh word as he hasn’t crossed a picket yet. I had to make my decision recently regarding my union’s picket regarding blacklisting in our industry at Crossrail sites in London.
But yes if it becomes apparent he’s a blagger, as the last two new employees were, then I’ll make sure he’ll have a length of rope to hang himself. Until then I won’t call him a scab as that’s not fair.
As for sitting back, not at all, currently we are in talks to ask for an increase from what was offered in April and we are pursuing aggressively. Whether we succeed, depends on how much as a group stick together and we are not talking strike action or double percentage figures payrises either.
If that falls on deaf ears, it’ll be interesting to see how many stick to contracted hours and work to rule.
Our only gripe is the amount of free overtime (substantial - not talking 4-5 hours a week) we have to do for no extra money whatsoever. Overtime payments were overturned somehow last year at the end of it?!
If I did my contracted hours I actually would think my salary is good value for what is expected of me and fair and I wouldn’t complain.
Rob K:
That’s so far from the truth it’s ridiculous. This killing of the golden goose as you put it was nothing of the sort. Agencies are and always will be a necessary evil to supply firms with labour “on demand” when the need arises. You get a premium because it’s temporary work and you have essentially zero rights and that quite rightly commands a premium over a full-timer. The “golden goose” probably works out at roughly the same cost as a PAYE driver once you factor in job security (arguable), holidays, ssp, maternity, NI, tax and all the other perks of being a full-timer. I don’t understand why people don’t get this.
But Rob you’re preaching to the converted here I’ve done agency in my field and freelance too. So you saying frothing is silly now isn’t it.
I look at it from my industry we had this like yours too, everyone do a two weeks course and you’ll be an engineer when some of us had been studying and on-job training for 5 years.
The reason that all started was because we were taking the mickey with our per hour/per shift payments requests and other people saw that and thought i wouldn’t mind that kind of money.
They tried, unfortunatey for the not so good ones, they failed during their first month after they did all the rate cutting and paying for their training too.
But, to be truthful, we put ourselves in that position and please don’t be deluded and say you ain’t tried to milk the cash cow. We’re all humans we are greedy and its natural, all animals do it. I don’t think many of us could say we hadn’t done it and most of us would do it again with half a chance!
I saw the latest hourly rate for us engineers at the moment compared to agency driving money for some companies. So how the ■■■■ does that work, one’s technical/skilled and the other is semi skilled/skilled at best in certain sectors of driving. Yet one you have to do exams and be on the ball all the time and the other is buy your licence and be on the ball all the time you are driving.
Our mistakes can quickly run into tens of thousands literally in minutes and potentially if very wrong decisions are made injuring or god forbid killing a fellow worker.
So can driving if its an accident but i can’t see a comparison for value of the hourly rate. Ours is because the industry is scared of its shadow and doesn’t feel it knows where its next job is, your excuse is?
We got our work back as Newmercman said about quality, we saved or even made companies thousands as we brought etc value to the table rather than the £30 a day they saved employing a no nothing instead.
I find driving less stressful than engineering. So I’m going with your wages being better value, so yep I want a piece of the pie. I won’t be doing rate cutting as Im confident in what I know, but I also know too I won’t be asking for high teen pounds as I’m not as experienced as my father for example.
You can’t complain about rate cutting if you truly do agency. And if you do that then what the ■■■■ are you complaining about? You do the job at the higher fee than the full timers most probably do anyway.
The competition cutting up you, is part of your risk, its called business whatever sector you’re in. That is the risk and reward of working truly for yourself. As you’ll make more money than the full timers and with quality keep getting a return visit, unless you are having a confidence crisis or are fed up with the job altogether, I don’t know that only you do I am afraid?!
Jesus Rob you have unions, when was you last a member of one??
Let me guess you’re one of these jokers, who says “I ain’t paying for a union but I want union representation…for free” If you don’t use it, you lose it and the unions power for wages have been eroded for decades now. Where was you during those times and elections, cheering on Maggie I expect.
Now you’re crying into you ■■■■ pot saying the union should be representing me and my rights. Well you ■■■■■■ on your chips and the train has left without you. You’ll have to play with the cards you are dealt and bring extra value to the table to prospective employers. Not the traditional old timers tale of do you remember the good old days of the Middle East, reminiscing of roping and sheeting…gissa job mate blah blah etc!
Times have changed bud, keep with the programme otherwise you’ll be left behind and you won’t want that!
C
