meatthetrucker:
Some friends and I setup a Co-op style arrangement at the start of the year in order to cut out the agencies and act as our own agency as suggested in previous posts.
It is harder than you would imagine but we ended up with £3-4/hr pay rises so it wasn’t a huge increase but it has dragged the class 1 drivers into the £750/wk (before tax) bracket with the class 2 following in at £600/wk and I am not sure about 7.5t drivers as we have only ever covered the odd day on the 7.5t for which we earned about £90-100 for the day. This is for a 10-11 hour day mon-fri. The rates in our area from a normal agency are appalling so we might not be the richest truckers in the country but we are richer than the people who use a normal agency.
We all pay into a pot (about 30-50p/hr) to cover insurances etc and it means alot more paperwork but we learnt a couple of things.
1, As stated before all the drivers in the group must stay together.
2, All drivers must sticks to the rates the GROUP has decided. Do not undercut eachother.
3, Every driver in the group must be professional and not let the group down.
4, Everyone will willingly help any other driver within the group.
5, If a company insists upon driver negligence insurance then increase your rate by £1/hr as it costs £2300 for 1-15 drivers. Also this means you need 15 drivers per group for maximum cost benefit.
6, If we can get more freelance, self-employed, Ltd company or umbrella drivers to do the same then maybe there is a small chance that rates can change for all drivers.
Going forward we will be increasing the rates slightly as we have proved ourselves reliable but we understand there will be a ceiling to the rates.
That sounds interesting I must say. Agencies are a scourge, worse than the taxman when you add everything up.
meatthetrucker:
Some friends and I setup a Co-op style arrangement at the start of the year in order to cut out the agencies and act as our own agency as suggested in previous posts.
It is harder than you would imagine but we ended up with £3-4/hr pay rises so it wasn’t a huge increase but it has dragged the class 1 drivers into the £750/wk (before tax) bracket with the class 2 following in at £600/wk and I am not sure about 7.5t drivers as we have only ever covered the odd day on the 7.5t for which we earned about £90-100 for the day. This is for a 10-11 hour day mon-fri. The rates in our area from a normal agency are appalling so we might not be the richest truckers in the country but we are richer than the people who use a normal agency.
We all pay into a pot (about 30-50p/hr) to cover insurances etc and it means alot more paperwork but we learnt a couple of things.
1, As stated before all the drivers in the group must stay together.
2, All drivers must sticks to the rates the GROUP has decided. Do not undercut eachother.
3, Every driver in the group must be professional and not let the group down.
4, Everyone will willingly help any other driver within the group.
5, If a company insists upon driver negligence insurance then increase your rate by £1/hr as it costs £2300 for 1-15 drivers. Also this means you need 15 drivers per group for maximum cost benefit.
6, If we can get more freelance, self-employed, Ltd company or umbrella drivers to do the same then maybe there is a small chance that rates can change for all drivers.
Going forward we will be increasing the rates slightly as we have proved ourselves reliable but we understand there will be a ceiling to the rates.
Well done Lads,
Thats the best initiative I have heard in ages, and in reality you are just taking back that percentage that agencies charge. I just wish more lads would do it !
newmercman:
I think it is right that a newly qualified driver, or one with little or no experience is working for less money than an experienced driver.
If they were not, then what good is experience to a lorry driver? If you cone into an industry/job/career on the best money you could ever get for doing the job, where is the motivation to better yourself?
It isn’t the fault of the newbies that seasoned drivers are in competition with them for jobs. That’s the fault of the seasoned drivers, who are ‘worth’ more, or so they think, yet despite all their experience, knowledge and expertise, they’re still at the bottom of the totem pole!
Yes, I know there’s a recession, immigration, uncontrolled cabotage, blah blah blah, but this has not just happened over the last weekend, it’s been around for years. There are plenty of drivers out there who have good jobs, are they lucky? Or is it that they have decent jobs because they made good decisions in the past?
Any seasoned driver with a good reputation should, in most cases, not even be looking at jobs where the competition is newbies, if they are, then maybe they are not as good as they think they are…
See my reply to weewilliewinkie earlier, then I shall look forward to your wisdom on how one should proceed as you appear to have all the answers!
There is no answer in the current economic climate. There is more supply (drivers) than demand (work) so it’s a buyer’s market. Newbies are cheaper, as they should be, the job doesn’t require experience anymore. Sat navs or printed maps tell them where to go and how to get there, a risk assessment tells them how to avoid being killed at deliveries and collections, the lorries all but drive them self nowadays, so why should anybody pay a premium for that? A newbie can quite easily do it, as they prove by doing it on a daily basis.
You will never earn more than the minimum if you do something that everyone else is doing. You need to find a niche and offer added value. If all you’re going to do is deliver 26plts from one warehouse to another, you ain’t going to earn much are you?
Firstly palletised loads and even curtainsiders have been the accepted standard for most types of haulage operations for years so there’s no real reason as to why hauling 26 pallets of freight from A to B should be paid a lot less.It’s basically just cut out the handballing and sheeting needed in the old days of which I don’t think any drivers ever got rich doing anyway.Ironically in many cases wage rates vary in all types of work to the point where sometimes more difficult jobs pay less than easier ones.In that regard it’s always been a lottery as to who gets paid what and the amount and type of work needed for the money.
As for me I’d rather have a job that pays a bit less but involves less aggravation than one that ( possibly ) pays a bit more but in which the extra work and aggro,isn’t reflected in the extra money,if there’s even any extra money in it at all.In which case I’d choose a full load palletised long distance haulage job using a curtainsider anytime over a zb local building deliveries job using a Hiab or having to sheet a flat in zb weather etc etc.
meatthetrucker:
Some friends and I setup a Co-op style arrangement at the start of the year in order to cut out the agencies and act as our own agency as suggested in previous posts.
It is harder than you would imagine but we ended up with £3-4/hr pay rises so it wasn’t a huge increase but it has dragged the class 1 drivers into the £750/wk (before tax) bracket with the class 2 following in at £600/wk and I am not sure about 7.5t drivers as we have only ever covered the odd day on the 7.5t for which we earned about £90-100 for the day. This is for a 10-11 hour day mon-fri. The rates in our area from a normal agency are appalling so we might not be the richest truckers in the country but we are richer than the people who use a normal agency.
We all pay into a pot (about 30-50p/hr) to cover insurances etc and it means alot more paperwork but we learnt a couple of things.
1, As stated before all the drivers in the group must stay together.
2, All drivers must sticks to the rates the GROUP has decided. Do not undercut eachother.
3, Every driver in the group must be professional and not let the group down.
4, Everyone will willingly help any other driver within the group.
5, If a company insists upon driver negligence insurance then increase your rate by £1/hr as it costs £2300 for 1-15 drivers. Also this means you need 15 drivers per group for maximum cost benefit.
6, If we can get more freelance, self-employed, Ltd company or umbrella drivers to do the same then maybe there is a small chance that rates can change for all drivers.
Going forward we will be increasing the rates slightly as we have proved ourselves reliable but we understand there will be a ceiling to the rates.
Well done Lads,
Thats the best initiative I have heard in ages, and in reality you are just taking back that percentage that agencies charge. I just wish more lads would do it !
That isn’t really much different to what those so called ‘militant’ unions were all about when they were at the height of their powers during the 1970’s.
The fact that most loads are palletised and go in a curtainsider is precisely why lorry driver wages have remained in the doldrums!
The job is a piece of ■■■■ and any idiot can and does do it. Go to any place where lorry drivers gather and after less than 30secs you will have confirmation of that!
As for militant unions, really? The militant unions wanted all competition eliminated by way of import bans/tariffs so they could hold the country to ransom. A little different to a few drivers clubbing together to form, what is essentially, a members only agency.
newmercman:
Carryfast, you don’t get irony do you?
The fact that most loads are palletised and go in a curtainsider is precisely why lorry driver wages have remained in the doldrums!
The job is a piece of ■■■■ and any idiot can and does do it. Go to any place where lorry drivers gather and after less than 30secs you will have confirmation of that!
As for militant unions, really? The militant unions wanted all competition eliminated by way of import bans/tariffs so they could hold the country to ransom. A little different to a few drivers clubbing together to form, what is essentially, a members only agency.
Sad but true statement. nearly spilt my tea over my ipad laffing when i read that. Go anywhere lorry drivers gather and after 30 secs you have confirmation of that. This topic has relly stirred everyone up and raised the question of Do we relly deserved hight wages when we are in truth all compleat muppets. Is this the real reson driving is low paid ?
I don’t feel as though we are a militant union I just feel as though we are capable of earning a decent wage. To get to a decent wage we worked out that we cannot all act as individuals all the time and sometimes we would have to act as a group.
an example would be a lot of companies would like more than 1 driver a day but only want to pay 1 invoice. Therefore we have software that rolls up our individual invoices into a group invoice. The company is happy and the drivers are happy as this gives us access to a company who would not otherwise use individual drivers.
Also as a group we can cover another member of the group should their car breakdown or they are sick. This maintains the individuals and the groups reputation with companies.
anyone is free to join us it isn’t a closed shop nor do we think we have all the answers but the op was how can rates improve and this is a small answer to a big problem
newmercman:
Carryfast, you don’t get irony do you?
The fact that most loads are palletised and go in a curtainsider is precisely why lorry driver wages have remained in the doldrums!
The job is a piece of ■■■■ and any idiot can and does do it. Go to any place where lorry drivers gather and after less than 30secs you will have confirmation of that!
As for militant unions, really? The militant unions wanted all competition eliminated by way of import bans/tariffs so they could hold the country to ransom. A little different to a few drivers clubbing together to form, what is essentially, a members only agency.
So you’re saying that just because civilisation removed the added aggravation of sheeting and handballing loads that suddenly made truck drivers cheap rate muppets.
I think the description provided concerning the aims of the ‘co operative’ described seemed to be close enough to me to those of those unions who as you know I was,still am,110% in support of.As for the idea of trade barriers and tarriffs to create a protected market being a so called bad idea,memebrship of the EEC/EU and the global free market economy hasn’t exactly produced the perfect economic environment for us over the last 40 years.
meatthetrucker:
I don’t feel as though we are a militant union I just feel as though we are capable of earning a decent wage. To get to a decent wage we worked out that we cannot all act as individuals all the time and sometimes we would have to act as a group.
an example would be a lot of companies would like more than 1 driver a day but only want to pay 1 invoice. Therefore we have software that rolls up our individual invoices into a group invoice. The company is happy and the drivers are happy as this gives us access to a company who would not otherwise use individual drivers.
Also as a group we can cover another member of the group should their car breakdown or they are sick. This maintains the individuals and the groups reputation with companies.
anyone is free to join us it isn’t a closed shop nor do we think we have all the answers but the op was how can rates improve and this is a small answer to a big problem
I think the idea of the ‘closed shop’ came about because of the inevitable issues of those who want to stay out of the ‘co operative’ and undermine and undercut everything that the idea of standing together can achieve. What you’re describing is exactly how the unions,which ( rightly ) reached the height of thir powers during the 1970’s,started out.
newmercman:
I think it is right that a newly qualified driver, or one with little or no experience is working for less money than an experienced driver.
If they were not, then what good is experience to a lorry driver? If you cone into an industry/job/career on the best money you could ever get for doing the job, where is the motivation to better yourself?
It isn’t the fault of the newbies that seasoned drivers are in competition with them for jobs. That’s the fault of the seasoned drivers, who are ‘worth’ more, or so they think, yet despite all their experience, knowledge and expertise, they’re still at the bottom of the totem pole!
Yes, I know there’s a recession, immigration, uncontrolled cabotage, blah blah blah, but this has not just happened over the last weekend, it’s been around for years. There are plenty of drivers out there who have good jobs, are they lucky? Or is it that they have decent jobs because they made good decisions in the past?
Any seasoned driver with a good reputation should, in most cases, not even be looking at jobs where the competition is newbies, if they are, then maybe they are not as good as they think they are…
See my reply to weewilliewinkie earlier, then I shall look forward to your wisdom on how one should proceed as you appear to have all the answers!
There is no answer in the current economic climate. There is more supply (drivers) than demand (work) so it’s a buyer’s market. Newbies are cheaper, as they should be, the job doesn’t require experience anymore. Sat navs or printed maps tell them where to go and how to get there, a risk assessment tells them how to avoid being killed at deliveries and collections, the lorries all but drive them self nowadays, so why should anybody pay a premium for that? A newbie can quite easily do it, as they prove by doing it on a daily basis.
You will never earn more than the minimum if you do something that everyone else is doing. You need to find a niche and offer added value. If all you’re going to do is deliver 26plts from one warehouse to another, you ain’t going to earn much are you?
Firstly palletised loads and even curtainsiders have been the accepted standard for most types of haulage operations for years so there’s no real reason as to why hauling 26 pallets of freight from A to B should be paid a lot less.It’s basically just cut out the handballing and sheeting needed in the old days of which I don’t think any drivers ever got rich doing anyway.Ironically in many cases wage rates vary in all types of work to the point where sometimes more difficult jobs pay less than easier ones.In that regard it’s always been a lottery as to who gets paid what and the amount and type of work needed for the money.
As for me I’d rather have a job that pays a bit less but involves less aggravation than one that ( possibly ) pays a bit more but in which the extra work and aggro,isn’t reflected in the extra money,if there’s even any extra money in it at all.In which case I’d choose a full load palletised long distance haulage job using a curtainsider anytime over a zb local building deliveries job using a Hiab or having to sheet a flat in zb weather etc etc.
I can’t agree with this. This is relying on and expecting “job and knock” with “salaried employment”.
If someone tells me you can have 12 hour shifts of smooth drives, no waiting at RDCS, an hours unpaid break in the middle, and clocking out always on the minute of finish every day over 12 hours of being buggered about, slightly less time on the roads because you’re donking it all away waiting in yards, but grossing more money for the same hours - then guess what? The firm can ■■■■ me about as much as they like - providing I am being paid for it extra effectively.
The only kind of “being ■■■■■■ about” I won’t countenance is having my start times changed left, right, and centre.
Finishing times are already up for grabs now - I finish when I finish, be it 12 or 15 hours in. I get paid all that time, so I’m not'going around roundabouts on 11 wheels in an empty truck trying to get back so I can “carve it up and make some time” ‘cos the money is the same whatever time I finish’.
Looking at ways to get the best of both worlds - paid by the hour and full timer’s steady hours - I’d have to say that rolloing 13 week contracts would appear to be best. You can plan ahead knowing what start time you’ll have in advance, knowing that you’ll not be told to “stay at home” except on full pay, and feeling that you’re part of the staff rather than working against them.
I’m quite happy that our co-op aims are the same as the unions as obviously unions have the workers interests as their goals. That means we have sort of achieved our 1st goal. We aren’t militant but give us time
As I was young in the 70s can you just give me a quick history of what happened to those unions and whether there are any lessons I should learn from history as we have only been running 6 months and we are still working on what to do next
Think of that term “Militant” and what it represents to the public… Unions abusing their power.
A firm might sack a bully, someone caught stealing, or both participants in a fight on the spot. THe rest of the workforce “walks out in sympathy”.
Now that’s how the public see "militant Unions. Walking out over a corrupt issue - trying to get someone rightfully sacked re-instated.
The pendulum has swung too much the other way though, and it’s difficult to get the union recognition needed to prevent empoyers abusing the Union’s lack of power - such as sacking someone for not accepting ■■■■■■ advances, having a face that doesn’t fit, or as we read in the other thread - having an accident at work regardless of who’s fault it was.
Overall, I’d say that “Drivers have lost the will to fight” happened when drivers started voting conservative - since it’s Thatcher’s lot rather than anyone else most responsible for crushing union power to the point that Unions have changed from the abusers in the 1970’s to the abused by the end of the 1980’s.
You cannot be 110%, it’s impossible, 100% is as high as you can go.
% means per cent (hundred) so hope that’s a little clearer now
Handball and sheeting never made lorry driving a better job, it did however mean that experience had a value, but now, like I said, any idiot can do it.
We, as lorry drivers, do play a vital role in commerce, to the point where a cure for cancer would be worthless without the means (lorries) to get it distributed, but it doesn’t require much to be a lorry driver, there are also plenty of us around, so our wages will never reflect the importance of our role.
The Co-Op quasi agency is a good idea for the blokes that are involved, it shows initiative, they have cut out the middle man and instead of just turning up in a grubby hi-viz and driving a lorry for the going rate, they offer added value, so it’s only right that they earn more.
That’s the way to approach it too, instead of bleating that life is unfair and that the union/government should step in and sort it all out for them, they’ve taken steps to get what they’re worth. They’ve found a solution to their problems and are reaping the benefits. There’s a valuable lesson to be learned from them…
Rob K:
The ‘job’ itself isn’t the issue, it’s all the silly naive noobs coming in and doing the job for buttons which eventually filters through and lowers the rates for everyone, not just us temps.
So what exactly is your driving history? Do you actually work in the industry because you dont seem to know alot do you…
This co op thing is nothing like a union all they are doing is cutting out the middle man and been a group it gives them the chance to go for bigger firms that would rather call up one person to arange drivers rather than a dozen freelancers. Good luck to them.
Protecting and safegaurding your own industrys is communism.
Great in theroy but not in real life.
newmercman:
You cannot be 110%, it’s impossible, 100% is as high as you can go.
% means per cent (hundred) so hope that’s a little clearer now
Handball and sheeting never made lorry driving a better job, it did however mean that experience had a value, but now, like I said, any idiot can do it.
We, as lorry drivers, do play a vital role in commerce, to the point where a cure for cancer would be worthless without the means (lorries) to get it distributed, but it doesn’t require much to be a lorry driver, there are also plenty of us around, so our wages will never reflect the importance of our role.
The Co-Op quasi agency is a good idea for the blokes that are involved, it shows initiative, they have cut out the middle man and instead of just turning up in a grubby hi-viz and driving a lorry for the going rate, they offer added value, so it’s only right that they earn more.
That’s the way to approach it too, instead of bleating that life is unfair and that the union/government should step in and sort it all out for them, they’ve taken steps to get what they’re worth. They’ve found a solution to their problems and are reaping the benefits. There’s a valuable lesson to be learned from them…
I meant 110% in that case in it’s usual sense being wholly in support and a bit more besides.
As for handballing and sheeting being a valuable experience they were probably more aggravation than they were worth ( at least wherever they can be avoided ) both to the employer and the driver.I’d certainly be willing to earn less not to need to have that requirement as part of the job.While the guvnor also wins because it means less time spent loading the wagon considering that I don’t think anyone would want to go back to using flats for every job on the basis that the customers would pay more and drivers would earn more in that case.
As for the idea of a co operative ( as described in this case the stopping of the undercutting of wage rates being one of the aims ) a powerful union of the types we had during the 1970’s is the logical conclusion of that idea.Although having said that I’ve never understood why the unions didn’t just set themselves up as an agency in their own right paying the type of wages the workers demanded from the employers thereby cutting out the whole issue of the need for strikes.IE if ( the ex ) employers didn’t want to pay up then they don’t get the job done with no aggravation and propaganda concerning militant ‘employees’ holding the employers to so called ransom because the ‘employees’ in that case don’t actually work for the ( now ex ) employers.
It suddenly becomes just a commercial transaction between the ‘agency co operative’ ( ex union ) and the ( ex employers ) and just as in the case of any other commercial transaction if the ( ex employer ) doesn’t want to pay then the ( ex employer ) doesn’t get the job done.With no ability for the Sun and Daily Mail and the Tory Party to start moaning about so called ‘militant employees’ because the so called ‘employees’ don’t actually work for the ( ex employers ) they now work for the ‘co operative’ which was of course the ex union.
Which just leaves the question of the ( ex employers ) then using cheap imported labour within the global free labour market which you obviously support.
kr79:
This co op thing is nothing like a union all they are doing is cutting out the middle man and been a group it gives them the chance to go for bigger firms that would rather call up one person to arange drivers rather than a dozen freelancers. Good luck to them.
Protecting and safegaurding your own industrys is communism.
Great in theroy but not in real life.
I think that the US economic policy at least up to the mid 1970’s showed that protecting your own industry from outside competition is anything but communism.
If you read the description provided concerning the aims of the co operative in question one of those aims is to stop the issue of wage levels being under cut.Which was always the first and foremost aim of any union worth the name.
meatthetrucker:
Right here are some question to any driver who has been working long enough to remember.
Did closed shops increase your wages?
When did the unions stop getting drivers decent pay rises?
Can drivers ever function as a professional company or are there too many people just out for themselves?
This is a bit off topic but…
I was a TM for an own-account fleet in Birmingham back in the 70s. The Union were very strong and all my drivers were members. If I wanted an agency driver then I was supposed to use the Union agency, which was, surprise surprise, run by the top union bod’s daughter. There were loads of strikes and the rate quickly rose to £1 an hour. The problem was that inflation quickly eroded the purchasing power of that £1 so they were no better off.
The car factory at Longbridge was not far away and an unskilled worker could earn much more there than just about anywhere else. The odd thing was that most of the non-drivers (packers, flt drivers, labourers) had worked at Longbridge and left of their own accord, for less money, because they couldn’t stand all the aggro.
My drivers worked job and finish for a full week - they would load on Monday, leave Tuesday morning and, usually, get back Friday dinner time. There had been a policy of allowing them to come in on Saturday (for 6 hours wages) to “wash the trucks”. In practice they spent an hour working and the rest mucking about. I gave them notice that Saturdays would be stopped and they all went on strike.
After a week, I had a private (at his request) meeting with the shop steward, who was currently claiming an industrial injury. He made it plain that the lads would be back at work if we gave in to his claim. He told me that he had been advised to say this by the union. The outcome was that he lost his claim, and later his job, and the rest came back to work Monday to Friday.
I think that my point is that power corrupts. Even at shop steward level they were on the make. At more senior level it was worse.
