Santa:
Years ago I used to believe that if you employed someone, made them responsible for a truck worth thousands and its load, and then sent them out to deliver said load, overcoming any problems, negotiating with customers and representing your company, that they were worth more than a labourer’s wage.
What has happened since is, as in many other trades, that the job has be de-skilled. Employers see drivers as little more than labourers. They also see that many drivers spend a good deal of their time doing nothing. Drivers today are not expected to do much more than steer their truck to a destination, open the curtains or doors, and wait while they get loaded or unloaded. The advent of mobile phones, trackers, automatic everything has made the job so easy that almost anyone can do it.
Why should we expect to be paid more than someone who grafts all day, under supervision, in a warehouse?
Pay peanuts and get monkeys
The industry has had it … as soon as i am offered £8 per hr then i am off to fill shelfs at asdas
Why would i want to hurtle around with 18 ton behind me for £8 per hour when i could stack a few niece or bourbon biscuits onto the shelf
You might want to check with your niece first before manhandling her onto the biscuits shelf at Asda!
Santa:
Years ago I used to believe that if you employed someone, made them responsible for a truck worth thousands and its load, and then sent them out to deliver said load, overcoming any problems, negotiating with customers and representing your company, that they were worth more than a labourer’s wage.
What has happened since is, as in many other trades, that the job has be de-skilled. Employers see drivers as little more than labourers. They also see that many drivers spend a good deal of their time doing nothing. Drivers today are not expected to do much more than steer their truck to a destination, open the curtains or doors, and wait while they get loaded or unloaded. The advent of mobile phones, trackers, automatic everything has made the job so easy that almost anyone can do it.
Why should we expect to be paid more than someone who grafts all day, under supervision, in a warehouse?
Pay peanuts and get monkeys
The industry has had it … as soon as i am offered £8 per hr then i am off to fill shelfs at asdas
Why would i want to hurtle around with 18 ton behind me for £8 per hour when i could stack a few niece or bourbon biscuits onto the shelf
You might want to check with your niece first before manhandling her onto the biscuits shelf at Asda!
orys:
Carryfast! I can’t believe. That day came! Finally! You understood what I am talking about!
But of course you are naive to think that it is possible to come back to what used to be. How you see that employers suddenly start to pay more to their workers?
I think we rather sooner see something like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqXXO0GGNRI
Free minimum payment to everyone, work to some, most of the profits going to few.
I think it’s a lot more naive to think that what would effectively be a massive EU wide mininum living income gauranteed unemployment benefit system stands a chance of working.
Than it is to think that the simple choice is between getting back to the industrialised economy run on Fordist lines that we had at least until the 1970’s,or we just end up in the situation of Greece or Ireland.
Carryfast:
I think it’s a lot more naive to think that what would effectively be a massive EU wide mininum living income gauranteed unemployment benefit system stands a chance of working.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome
Worked in Canada, India and many other test sites… UK benefit system, despite all its flauds, also did not caused a fail to the economy yet.
Saying that I have mixed feelings when it comes to that idea.
Than it is to think that the simple choice is between getting back to the industrialised economy run on Fordist lines that we had at least until the 1970’s,or we just end up in the situation of Greece or Ireland.
North Korea is still in the 1970’s style industrialised economy
Carryfast:
I think it’s a lot more naive to think that what would effectively be a massive EU wide mininum living income gauranteed unemployment benefit system stands a chance of working.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome
Worked in Canada, India and many other test sites… UK benefit system, despite all its flauds, also did not caused a fail to the economy yet.
Saying that I have mixed feelings when it comes to that idea.
Than it is to think that the simple choice is between getting back to the industrialised economy run on Fordist lines that we had at least until the 1970’s,or we just end up in the situation of Greece or Ireland.
North Korea is still in the 1970’s style industrialised economy
The crucial difference is that,just like Russia and China,North Korea has never been run on Fordist lines.
Conor:
Welcome to a free market economy. Don’t like it then sod off to North Korea where the government will tell you what you can earn. Obviously you have so little faith in your own ability that you feel threatened by it. Personally I’m confident enough in my own abilities I put my rates up 20% a few years ago.
Confident enough in your own abilities you say? So remind us why you got sacked from Goole again?
As you say,
but don’t let facts get in the way of a good rant eh?
And we are back to usual Carryfast, who has no idea about what he is talking about.
Henry Ford was a hero in Soviet Union Whole Stalinist industrial revolution was build on his ideas. Henry Ford himself was serving as a personal adviser to Stalin. He visited SU in 1929.
orys:
And we are back to usual Carryfast, who has no idea about what he is talking about.
Henry Ford was a hero in Soviet Union Whole Stalinist industrial revolution was build on his ideas. Henry Ford himself was serving as a personal adviser to Stalin. He visited SU in 1929.
It’s probably going to take you a bit longer learning western democratic history to understand the difference between Stalin’s idea of Fordism v that of Truman’s,Eisenhower’s,Kennedy’s and LBJ’s.Here’s a clue Ford didn’t sell many Ford Mustangs etc etc in Russia unlike at home.
jrt:
getting undercut happends to everybody in any industry. get used to it. dont hate the player, hate the game. new drivers are going play the game of getting there foot in the door just like you proberly had too once.
why do you think so many shops are closing down ? a massive reson for this is prouducts being sold cheaply on the internet by people selling stuff on ebay out of there garages. yes thay have no over heads and dont have the hassle of tax and red tape of running a propber hight street shop so thay can sell the prouduces for next to nothing.
but hay why should you give a [zb]. its cheaper for you to buy online from some have ago retailer trader cowboy. or why buy music from hmv when you can down load it for nothing of the internett right…right ■■?
after all why the [zb] would you pay abit more from the real shops its of no beifit to you. then you go to work and bragg to all your work mates how you only paid x amount online for such and such.
thing is all the people that used to work in the shops have been made redundant now. like the thousands that were from comet or hmv not to menshion 1000’s of single outlet independant shops that gon bust too.
but yes you gessed it alot of the redundant retail workers have nowhere to go as all shops are loseing people rather than employing . so thay think what the hell am i going do now well ill try driving work. ill use my redundacy pay to get a lgv licents too it might help to make me more usefull to an employer.
retail workers are more than used to working for min wage too. its the industry standard and has been for many many years.
so then all the currant lorry drivers like yourself are going gggrrr f off back to were you came from. ha ha ha dont make me laff thay didnt have a choice in leaving where thay came from so how can thay go back ?.
you are a very ignorant person and very short sighted. why should a new driver give a [zb] about you. when you dont give a [zb] about them. stop blubbing that you gatting [zb] over just like the rest of use alreddy have. your loyal to your walet and the rest of use are going be loyal to ares.
But i got a great tip for you to end your money problems. open a shop on the hight street i hear theres a real shortage of hight street shops these days. hah hah ha
That’s a different argument altogether and bears little relevance in this thread. The reason those retailers failed is because they were stuck in the dark ages and didn’t bother to change their ways and diversify with the way the world was changing. Anyone with an ounce of sense could see the writing on the wall for close to 2 decades, but instead of moving with the times the likes of HMV, Woolies, Comet etc continued with their run down high street stores trying to flog their tat to the gullible at inflated prices whilst refusing to watch what was going on around them in internet land.
The rest of your post is unintelligible so you’ll forgive me for not bothering to reply to it. I think some people would do better getting themselves an education before learning to drive trucks.
newmercman:
I think it is right that a newly qualified driver, or one with little or no experience is working for less money than an experienced driver.
If they were not, then what good is experience to a lorry driver? If you cone into an industry/job/career on the best money you could ever get for doing the job, where is the motivation to better yourself?
It isn’t the fault of the newbies that seasoned drivers are in competition with them for jobs. That’s the fault of the seasoned drivers, who are ‘worth’ more, or so they think, yet despite all their experience, knowledge and expertise, they’re still at the bottom of the totem pole!
Yes, I know there’s a recession, immigration, uncontrolled cabotage, blah blah blah, but this has not just happened over the last weekend, it’s been around for years. There are plenty of drivers out there who have good jobs, are they lucky? Or is it that they have decent jobs because they made good decisions in the past?
Any seasoned driver with a good reputation should, in most cases, not even be looking at jobs where the competition is newbies, if they are, then maybe they are not as good as they think they are…
See my reply to weewilliewinkie earlier, then I shall look forward to your wisdom on how one should proceed as you appear to have all the answers!
stobarttrucker:
be consistant rob
this is an old post of yours
I must be doing the job wrong then because “arm out of the window eating an apple” and not getting stressed when I’ve taken a wrong turning pretty much sums up my past 3 weeks of driving. The job is what you make it. Find the type of driving work you enjoy and you’re sorted. It’s money for old rope once you get your stall set up how you want.
the jobs either a doddle or stressfull,cant be both
You’re preaching to the converted, chap! I’ve had all that nailed for years. The ‘job’ itself isn’t the issue, it’s all the silly naive noobs coming in and doing the job for buttons which eventually filters through and lowers the rates for everyone, not just us temps.
weewulliewinkie:
I don’t think the newbies can be blamed, if your rates are being undercut by 25 and 50 percent then its a sign of the times we are now operating in. so the simple solution is to take your service elsewhere that WILL pay the rates you are asking. Rob why are you offering your services to an agency anyway ? why are you not asking directly to the main companies then you would be in control of your own rates/hours etc,
That’s easier said than done. The agencies have largely got the entire temp driver market sown up tight. You try to get in direct with the client (as ltd co) but you’re met with the same “we only use x, y and z agencies” along with weak excuses such as “it’s easier for us to use an agency if we need 10 drivers than ring round 10 individuals.” Then there’s all the back-handers that go on between the agencies and the clients. It’s well known at one particular West Yorks transport firm that brown envelopes regularly change hands between the general manager and agency owner to ensure that all his drivers are used first before contacting any other agencies. Drivers have been trying to get in there direct for years but he’s got it sown up tighter than a duck’s sphincter.
To answer your question: I could go direct if I wanted to, but this isn’t without potential complications either. When I lived in Huddersfield I did work for 2 companies. One of them was absolutely fine and paid well within my 28 day terms but the other one never paid! I did get my money out of them in other ways, such as managing to put more diesel in the tank than it would physically hold (magic! ) and flogging their euros but this is the sort of risk you face if you go direct. With agencies I assume that they’ve already vetted the client before agreeing to supply them with labour and so you are very unlikely to have any problems getting your money paid by the agency, plus they usually pay you before they get paid by the client as well, which is about as ideal as it gets. The downside is that you have no control over the dishing out of work unless you happen to be one of the agency’s golden boys. It’s swings and roundabouts as there’s advantages and disadvantages to both ways. If you manage to reach the point where the client asks for you by name then that’s generally considered to be hitting jackpot because the client gets what the client wants and this overrules the agency’s golden boy favouritism.
What areas of transport are you looking at though? shopping trolley rdc and box work as a rule will only require a basic level of skill and as a result the rates of pay reflect that fact.
Many other areas of transport require a bit more input from the driver/operator and as a result less agency drivers are used, are you wanting a clean job with little work/input for top dollar?
Semtex:
If you want to blame anyone, blame the jobcentres.
If your on the dole and have a licence, then they will say, "here’s a driving job that pays £6.50 an hour.
You say “Not enough money”
They say “in that case your money is stopped!!!”
Ok, you say apply and then fail at the interview…well these companys at those rates will have a policy of “You have a licence and a pulse…start monday”
Its not always the newbies fault, but the system
Best not tell the DSS you’ve got a special licence then…
When asked “What work can you do” with the likelyhood of money being stopped if you put any limitations on it, one could always say "Anything that puts enough fuel in my car so I don’t run out halfway there!"
Semtex:
If you want to blame anyone, blame the jobcentres.
If your on the dole and have a licence, then they will say, "here’s a driving job that pays £6.50 an hour.
You say “Not enough money”
They say “in that case your money is stopped!!!”
Ok, you say apply and then fail at the interview…well these companys at those rates will have a policy of “You have a licence and a pulse…start monday”
Its not always the newbies fault, but the system
Best not tell the DSS you’ve got a special licence then…
When asked “What work can you do” with the likelyhood of money being stopped if you put any limitations on it, one could always say "Anything that puts enough fuel in my car so I don’t run out halfway there!"
I think the conditions for JSA are based on the minimum wage being seen as enough to pay for a long commute to and from work by bus. Which just leaves the question as to wether someone who’d prefer to be a driver would prefer to drive a truck for the minimum wage or spend their working days serving hamburgers or in a warehouse etc etc for the money.
I do know that when I was full tilt, I’d rather pay the extra for a pro than 50% less for a muppet. But then I may be in the minority. I used to pay the agency £15 odd flat rate including paid breaks, straight through from Daventry & Birmingham for pros.
I think the major problem here is that drivers have no fight in them any more. Gone are the days when your boss would back you if you were in dispute anywhere. We are held to ransom by large RDC’s with the attitude “do as we say or else leave site” because they know that should you dare to stand up to them that you will be out of a job once you return to the yard with the load undelivered.
Drivers accepted long ago that they are no longer in charge of their working day or wage packet. Should they dare to argue they were threatened with replacement by a Polish driver or a P45.
Agencies are victims of their own success and with each new “driving consultant” getting ideas above their station and starting up on their own you get the problem that contracts can only be won by being cheaper than the agency they worked for. Agencies now have all their drivers on different rates of pay and they will offer the lowest rate first so as a full time driver gets made redundant he then panics about where his next wage will come from so he joins an agency who asks what he used to get paid, they match this rate knowing it is a good one pound per hour less than they pay their other drivers but this boy is happy, he’s still going to have an income and the agency love him because he is giving them a greater profit margin.
Along comes newly qualified driver and agency see this as an opportunity to make even more profit so they come up with the excuse that because he is a new driver it will be harder to find him work and therefore they can only pay “x” amount. Said driver is all excited about getting to drive his first lorry that he willingly accepts and yet the agency charge the same for new boy as they do for old timers.
Unfortunately agencies are a necessary evil and the secret is to learn how to play them and being good at what you do certainly helps.
Now you also have a lot of old hand or retired drivers who cherry pick the premium weekend shifts, the only problem is that they end up doing them for sometimes almost half the regular rate of pay so it stands that they will get first refusal of this work and alas the man with kids to feed ends up sat at home thanks to greedy granddad who just wants to earn his wife her bingo money. If you have retired then retire and let the younger ones have a bite of the cherry but that’s another argument. Morally its wrong but alas we all look after ourselves so who gives a ■■■■.
There are lots of evils and reasons why the rates are ■■■■■ in places and the secret is to find where they are good and get in there. Make yourself look good so that you are asked for by name and then milk it whilst you can because nothing is forever. Look after number one because nobody else will. Forget the dream of drivers sticking together and get on with making the big bucks because although other posters on this thread say the days of a grand plus are gone,for some they are not. If you don’t think its possible then it never will be.
newmercman:
I think it is right that a newly qualified driver, or one with little or no experience is working for less money than an experienced driver.
If they were not, then what good is experience to a lorry driver? If you cone into an industry/job/career on the best money you could ever get for doing the job, where is the motivation to better yourself?
It isn’t the fault of the newbies that seasoned drivers are in competition with them for jobs. That’s the fault of the seasoned drivers, who are ‘worth’ more, or so they think, yet despite all their experience, knowledge and expertise, they’re still at the bottom of the totem pole!
Yes, I know there’s a recession, immigration, uncontrolled cabotage, blah blah blah, but this has not just happened over the last weekend, it’s been around for years. There are plenty of drivers out there who have good jobs, are they lucky? Or is it that they have decent jobs because they made good decisions in the past?
Any seasoned driver with a good reputation should, in most cases, not even be looking at jobs where the competition is newbies, if they are, then maybe they are not as good as they think they are…
See my reply to weewilliewinkie earlier, then I shall look forward to your wisdom on how one should proceed as you appear to have all the answers!
There is no answer in the current economic climate. There is more supply (drivers) than demand (work) so it’s a buyer’s market. Newbies are cheaper, as they should be, the job doesn’t require experience anymore. Sat navs or printed maps tell them where to go and how to get there, a risk assessment tells them how to avoid being killed at deliveries and collections, the lorries all but drive them self nowadays, so why should anybody pay a premium for that? A newbie can quite easily do it, as they prove by doing it on a daily basis.
You will never earn more than the minimum if you do something that everyone else is doing. You need to find a niche and offer added value. If all you’re going to do is deliver 26plts from one warehouse to another, you ain’t going to earn much are you?
From what i read on here i believe a lot of agency rates for hiab etc aint to clever now.
Although there are still a few decent paying jobs out there its just your not going to find them in the job centre.
Although nmm is right a lot of lorry driving has been deskilled in recent years which will affect wages as pretty much any idiot can do a lot of the jobs.
Your post about the shops closeing is leaffable. Your saying its the shops fault for not changing with the times so hard luck ?. Isn’t that like you ? times have changed right but you hav’nt changed with it right ? Ay didn’t you see it coming ? Though a smart ■■■ like you sees and knows everything right ? I mean you saw the writing on the wall for the chage in retail but what you missed The writings thats been on the wall for the transport industry for so many years now ? Ha ha ha. And you just sat on your hands and done nothing about it ! Ha ha ha ha aha ah. So you deserve what your getting same as the shop workers then right ?
I gess it’s all boiling down to one single point. Who has the power ? Who needs who ? Mr k no one needs you so thay can get away with paying you Crumbs. That’s right there going exploit the fact that thay hold the power and you have none. Just like you would exploit them and demand a massive hourly rate if thay needed you more than you needed them.
you want to be a stand up comic pal. people like you cant see yourselfs for what you are. Ignorant ■■■■■■■■■ No wounder no one wants to work with you
Some friends and I setup a Co-op style arrangement at the start of the year in order to cut out the agencies and act as our own agency as suggested in previous posts.
It is harder than you would imagine but we ended up with £3-4/hr pay rises so it wasn’t a huge increase but it has dragged the class 1 drivers into the £750/wk (before tax) bracket with the class 2 following in at £600/wk and I am not sure about 7.5t drivers as we have only ever covered the odd day on the 7.5t for which we earned about £90-100 for the day. This is for a 10-11 hour day mon-fri. The rates in our area from a normal agency are appalling so we might not be the richest truckers in the country but we are richer than the people who use a normal agency.
We all pay into a pot (about 30-50p/hr) to cover insurances etc and it means alot more paperwork but we learnt a couple of things.
1, As stated before all the drivers in the group must stay together.
2, All drivers must sticks to the rates the GROUP has decided. Do not undercut eachother.
3, Every driver in the group must be professional and not let the group down.
4, Everyone will willingly help any other driver within the group.
5, If a company insists upon driver negligence insurance then increase your rate by £1/hr as it costs £2300 for 1-15 drivers. Also this means you need 15 drivers per group for maximum cost benefit.
6, If we can get more freelance, self-employed, Ltd company or umbrella drivers to do the same then maybe there is a small chance that rates can change for all drivers.
Going forward we will be increasing the rates slightly as we have proved ourselves reliable but we understand there will be a ceiling to the rates.
) and flogging their euros 