How can the rates ever improve

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

…when people are happy to work for buttons? :angry:

I’ll tell you what the problem is : It’s not the foreigners “stealing all our jobs”, it’s actually all these stupid newbies that are flooding the market. :angry:

I discovered yesterday that my rates (which, incidentally, are perfectly reasonable and certainly not as high as some other drivers charge) are being undercut by 25% on the basic rate and 50% on the o/t rate. :open_mouth: That equates to many pounds per hour, not just 50p-£1 difference. After expressing my incredulity the driver in question (also a ltd co like myself) informed me that he’d only passed his class 1 two months prior (after having paid £3500) and “that’s all the agency will pay and I need the experience” but then went on to say “£x/hr isn’t a bad rate really, it’s more than what I was getting in my previous job.” :unamused:

What chance have we got? :unamused: I’m noticing this is becoming a common - and worrying - trend. There have been several posts on here in the recent past where newbies have volunteered the rates they’re on through agencies - one notable example was from someone quite content to do an agency Sunday shift for £9/hr right through. :open_mouth: :unamused:

Tempting as it is to blame the agencies for this they are not really to blame. End of the day they are running a business and will take whatever steps are necessarily to maximise their profits. If everyone stood their ground and told them that these are my rates, take them or leave them, then they would soon either have to accept them or face closure from lack of business. As it is, they are having a field day with the 1000s of newbies flooding the market that are more than happy to lap up whatever £7/hr scraps they are tossed just to get a foot on the experience ladder. :angry:

I’m fully armoured up for the inevitable backlash here but instead of welcoming them in the newbies forum with open arms we should instead be telling them that whoever told you there is a driver shortage was wrong, now ■■■■ right off and go back to whatever mundane job you came from please. These are the people that are responsible for you not having received a pay rise in the last x years and also why temp worker rates are heading south. :bulb:

Supply and demand you say? GTFO please. If there was demand then the rates would be increasing or at least holding steady. As they’re not (and in fact heading south) then demand = 0, supply = too high.

2

i was talking to a teacher yesterday, it’s the same in that game. he was on a temporary renewable contract. his contract ended and he was replaced with a newbie for half the rate.

3

And your suggestion for ending the tradition of being shafted by agencies, and lying, about experience,to get a job,because companies wont take on ,or train drivers like ,the old timers ,say happened in the old days…IS :unamused:

4

I don’t think you can just blame new drivers there are a lot of older drivers who will work for very little, you have only got to look on these pages to see how many think you should be glad if offered £6 50 per hour. Also there are not many newbies who get a new truck if they work for less pay that’s all older drivers, it was all older drivers who signed contracts with agencies to avoid the awr so they could work for less.

5

zeddman:
And your suggestion for ending the tradition of being shafted by agencies, and lying, about experience,to get a job,because companies wont take on ,or train drivers like ,the old timers ,say happened in the old days…IS :unamused:

For those with reading issues :

Rob K:
[…]

we should instead be telling them that whoever told you there is a driver shortage was wrong, now [zb] right off and go back to whatever mundane job you came from please.

6

Rob K:
…when people are happy to work for buttons? :angry:

I’ll tell you what the problem is : It’s not the foreigners “stealing all our jobs”, it’s actually all these stupid newbies that are flooding the market. :angry:

I discovered yesterday that my rates (which, incidentally, are perfectly reasonable and certainly not as high as some other drivers charge) are being undercut by 25% on the basic rate and 50% on the o/t rate. :open_mouth: That equates to many pounds per hour, not just 50p-£1 difference. After expressing my incredulity the driver in question (also a ltd co like myself) informed me that he’d only passed his class 1 two months prior (after having paid £3500) and “that’s all the agency will pay and I need the experience” but then went on to say “£x/hr isn’t a bad rate really, it’s more than what I was getting in my previous job.” :unamused:

What chance have we got? :unamused: I’m noticing this is becoming a common - and worrying - trend. There have been several posts on here in the recent past where newbies have volunteered the rates they’re on through agencies - one notable example was from someone quite content to do an agency Sunday shift for £9/hr right through. :open_mouth: :unamused:

Tempting as it is to blame the agencies for this they are not really to blame. End of the day they are running a business and will take whatever steps are necessarily to maximise their profits. If everyone stood their ground and told them that these are my rates, take them or leave them, then they would soon either have to accept them or face closure from lack of business. As it is, they are having a field day with the 1000s of newbies flooding the market that are more than happy to lap up whatever £7/hr scraps they are tossed just to get a foot on the experience ladder. :angry:

I’m fully armoured up for the inevitable backlash here but instead of welcoming them in the newbies forum with open arms we should instead be telling them that whoever told you there is a driver shortage was wrong, now [zb] right off and go back to whatever mundane job you came from please. These are the people that are responsible for you not having received a pay rise in the last x years and also why temp worker rates are heading south. :bulb:

Supply and demand you say? GTFO please. If there was demand then the rates would be increasing or at least holding steady. As they’re not (and in fact heading south) then demand = 0, supply = too high.

So you were never a newbie to haulage then & obviously have never undercut someone to get work !!

7

Unfortunately many companies now will only pay £100 per shift and that’s to the agency round here

8

Oh I see that is why you had a go at me on the JSA umbrella thread. I see now because you are peeved that you can’t get your rate. Well I do sympathise and I would like to help you in your quest to save the old trucker but I am afraid I am powerless. My property maintenance worked has nosedived because builders everywhere have no site work so they are undercutting us handymen and taking our bread and butter work. I am really sorry that I have to educate you about economics but it appears to be necessary in this case. So to make ends meet I dug out my old HGV and PSV licences and blew the dust off them and had my medical. Guess what your brilliant truckers industry won’t give me a chance because my CV says I have not driven trucks since 1992. So I have to approach agencies who then tell me that if I have not driven in the last 2 years then I must be a big insurance risk and they can’t employ me. So I made up a job that I did last year for 8 months as this is what “newbies” are told to do by you experienced guys in the know. I was then told that the job they had in mind for me driving for a logistics company pays £8.32 and hour and that I either have to go PAYE or umbrella. It is a con and I am making peanuts but guess what I am willing to work for nothing to get experience and get work in from other agencies because I need 3 days a week to make a full time job. I have very little choice.

The result will be that agencies will take on all the newbies as they are working for nothing and the agencies are making profits. This is the industry you are in and it has changed for the worse and is likely to carry on downhill. Why don’t you train to do something else?

The real problem is not newbies as you put it but the fact that Blair and brown flooded the UK with cheap labour. We are over populated and there is no work anymore in the UK except cheap minimum wage part time jobs. Wake up and smell the coffee. :imp:

9

alix776:
Unfortunately many companies now will only pay £100 per shift and that’s to the agency round here

Sorry but I don’t believe that, unless the shifts are never longer than 8 hours. That’s the sort of tall story that the agencies want you to believe.

10

There is nothing new here,about 30 years ago I was after a baking job that was advertised at a good rate.I was offered the gig only at a reduced rate ,I had principles and refused the cut in wages.Some one else got the job.

11

Very poor rob, I expected better from you!

12

The real problem is not newbies as you put it but the fact that Blair and brown flooded the UK with cheap labour. We are over populated and there is no work anymore in the UK except cheap minimum wage part time jobs. Wake up and smell the coffee. :imp:
[/quote]
Pretty accurate.

13

Years ago I used to believe that if you employed someone, made them responsible for a truck worth thousands and its load, and then sent them out to deliver said load, overcoming any problems, negotiating with customers and representing your company, that they were worth more than a labourer’s wage.

What has happened since is, as in many other trades, that the job has be de-skilled. Employers see drivers as little more than labourers. They also see that many drivers spend a good deal of their time doing nothing. Drivers today are not expected to do much more than steer their truck to a destination, open the curtains or doors, and wait while they get loaded or unloaded. The advent of mobile phones, trackers, automatic everything has made the job so easy that almost anyone can do it.

Why should we expect to be paid more than someone who grafts all day, under supervision, in a warehouse?

14

alder:
Oh I see that is why you had a go at me on the JSA umbrella thread.

No, the reason I “had a go” (as you put it) was because you are self-employed (hint: that means working for yourself in case you’d forgotten the meaning of the term) yet you were letting the agency dictate the rate to you which is about as absurd as the occupiers of your properties dictating to you how much they will pay you to fix their bog. You tell the agencies how much you charge and if they won’t accept your rates then you wish them a good day and go and find one that will, obviously first ensuring that your rates are not in la-la-land to begin with.

I see now because you are peeved that you can’t get your rate.

I can still get it, but for how long when there are other drivers doing the same job for 25% less? :unamused:

Well I do sympathise and I would like to help you in your quest to save the old trucker but I am afraid I am powerless. My property maintenance worked has nosedived because builders everywhere have no site work so they are undercutting us handymen and taking our bread and butter work. I am really sorry that I have to educate you about economics but it appears to be necessary in this case. So to make ends meet I dug out my old HGV and PSV licences and blew the dust off them and had my medical. Guess what your brilliant truckers industry won’t give me a chance because my CV says I have not driven trucks since 1992. So I have to approach agencies who then tell me that if I have not driven in the last 2 years then I must be a big insurance risk and they can’t employ me. So I made up a job that I did last year for 8 months as this is what “newbies” are told to do by you experienced guys in the know. I was then told that the job they had in mind for me driving for a logistics company pays £8.32 and hour and that I either have to go PAYE or umbrella.

Any decent agency will use ltd co. The one you’re with clearly isn’t a decent one and the brolly company is probably owned by them hence why they’re forcing that route or PAYE. Find a decent one.

It is a con and I am making peanuts but guess what I am willing to work for nothing to get experience and get work in from other agencies because I need 3 days a week to make a full time job. I have very little choice.

Of course you have a choice. Don’t be so ridiculous, man :unamused: . You’re telling me that you have no other option but to work for free in order to get experience? Get real please. It’s people like you that are the problem in all this.

The result will be that agencies will take on all the newbies as they are working for nothing and the agencies are making profits. This is the industry you are in and it has changed for the worse and is likely to carry on downhill.

That’s only because mugs like you are prepared to work for nothing because you live beyond your means and don’t have any contigency funds when the ■■■■ hits the fan.

Why don’t you train to do something else?

I already do/am but I’ve had to go back driving to pay for health care. Strangely enough, despite me also needing to dig my licence out of the drawer and “blow the dust” off it I have had no issues finding good paying work without needing to work for free like your good self. :unamused:

The real problem is not newbies as you put it but the fact that Blair and brown flooded the UK with cheap labour.

Rubbish. The only people to blame are the media by constantly screaming there’s a national driver shortage/crisis when the truth is the complete opposite. There is possibly some truth in foreigners taking “our” driving jobs for less money but I don’t think the problem is anywhere near as big as some people would have you believe. ~5 years ago when we saw the big influx of Eastern Europe drivers, everywhere you went every other driver’s name was either Tomasz or Krzysztof but all the ones I knew were working for the exact same rates as the rest of us. The ‘the-foreigners-have-taken-all-our-jobs’ line just happens to be a convenient excuse when the real reason happens to be much closer to home.

We are over populated and there is no work anymore in the UK except cheap minimum wage part time jobs.

Some truth in that I’ll grant you, but there are jobs out there if you bother to put in the effort rather than sitting at your PC browsing the same old crap on the jobcentre site week after week.

15

Rob K:

zeddman:
And your suggestion for ending the tradition of being shafted by agencies, and lying, about experience,to get a job,because companies wont take on ,or train drivers like ,the old timers ,say happened in the old days…IS :unamused:

For those with reading issues :

Rob K:
[…]

we should instead be telling them that whoever told you there is a driver shortage was wrong, now [zb] right off and go back to whatever mundane job you came from please.

Dunno where the reading issues are…the only thing I read was ‘your new -f**k off’…or have I read…‘the econemys paggered,jobs are short,and the employer can take the ■■■■’…No wonder people think drivers are numb…yer got one nugget blaming northeners,and another blaming newbies…BUT, I dont agree with folks touting for experience for free,as I used to remember seeing ad in the mags years ago

16

Rob K:

alix776:
Unfortunately many companies now will only pay £100 per shift and that’s to the agency round here

Sorry but I don’t believe that, unless the shifts are never longer than 8 hours. That’s the sort of tall story that the agencies want you to believe.

Quite an interesting point and speaking from an agency I have to disagree Rob.

Being new in the area I made a point of seeing all previously-supplied clients with rates set up between 09-10. One of which (general haulier) was on a pretty poor hourly rate (between £11-£12 - imagine the scope that gives me to pay drivers and make a profit!), yet on visiting I was told the reason they haven’t been using is because their other agencies have agreed to a flat £120 day charge. If I were to pay £95.77, I break even. To make my desired margin, I have to pay £76.75.

I think you’ll agree it’s a ridiculous rate for a Class 2. So whatever your local agency may ‘want’ you to believe; there’s a legitimate example for you.

17

Santa:
Years ago I used to believe that if you employed someone, made them responsible for a truck worth thousands and its load, and then sent them out to deliver said load, overcoming any problems, negotiating with customers and representing your company, that they were worth more than a labourer’s wage.

What has happened since is, as in many other trades, that the job has be de-skilled. Employers see drivers as little more than labourers. They also see that many drivers spend a good deal of their time doing nothing. Drivers today are not expected to do much more than steer their truck to a destination, open the curtains or doors, and wait while they get loaded or unloaded. The advent of mobile phones, trackers, automatic everything has made the job so easy that almost anyone can do it.

Why should we expect to be paid more than someone who grafts all day, under supervision, in a warehouse?

But nothing’s changed in that respect for donkeys years. In fact ever since the pallet became commonplace to shift goods around on there has been considerably less manual labour involved. That still doesn’t alter the fact that the job can be quite mentally demanding having to contend with overcrowded roads and pretty much every other road user hating us, plus depending on the type of work it can also be very physically demanding work as well. Add those together and it becomes quite a stressful job if you don’t have the right mindset. “Anyone” may well be able to do the job short-term, but long-term? I have my doubts, and that’s one of many reasons why it should command better pay than some wallah moving pallets round in a warehouse and entering a few details on a database.

18

Supply & demand. Gone are the days of doing a grand a week on the wagons. They’ve simply let too many immigrants in who can do unskilled labour for a low rate, I’m not anti immigration, just sayin’.
That combined with the recession has sunk us!
And let’s not forget the digi card which put an end to frisbeeing discs.

19

Rob K:
I’ll tell you what the problem is : It’s not the foreigners “stealing all our jobs”, it’s actually all these stupid newbies that are flooding the market. :angry:

What a load of crap! I think its probably quite refreshing for companies to take on people that can actually do the job without whinging or messing it up… The fact that not long after i started in driving, the company i was on for were handing me jobs that drivers with 10-15+ experience wernt able to do or wernt trusted to do speaks volumes…

It ■■■■■■ me off that a small minority of you so called experienced drivers try and put down those of us that havnt been doing it long, when actually your so ■■■■■■■ useless at the job you cant even do a day in central london without throwing your toys out of the pram!

20

FreddieSwan:

Rob K:

alix776:
Unfortunately many companies now will only pay £100 per shift and that’s to the agency round here

Sorry but I don’t believe that, unless the shifts are never longer than 8 hours. That’s the sort of tall story that the agencies want you to believe.

Quite an interesting point and speaking from an agency I have to disagree Rob.

Being new in the area I made a point of seeing all previously-supplied clients with rates set up between 09-10. One of which (general haulier) was on a pretty poor hourly rate (between £11-£12 - imagine the scope that gives me to pay drivers and make a profit!), yet on visiting I was told the reason they haven’t been using is because their other agencies have agreed to a flat £120 day charge. If I were to pay £95.77, I break even. To make my desired margin, I have to pay £76.75.

I think you’ll agree it’s a ridiculous rate for a Class 2. So whatever your local agency may ‘want’ you to believe; there’s a legitimate example for you.

Sorry, I misinterpreted Alix’s post before. What you both say does happen, I agree - and I’ve even experienced it myself - but there are also plenty of cases where agencies lie and telling you that x client “will only pay x so that’s all we can pay you” which I’ve known in at least one situation to be complete bollox.

Round these parts, Haulfast and Stobbard’s are 2 such companies which use the shift rate thing and as a result neither of them can get decent drivers because for the £105/shift the agencies offer (Haulfast) they make sure you do 3x 15s and 3x 13s, which works out not far above the national minimum wage. Plenty of newbies in there happy to do it though. :unamused: