Gears 2 go brakes 2 slow

Not as its anything to write home about, but AS Tronic continues to down shift (to a lesser extent than under autoexhaust braking) as it slows, it most certainly doesn’t stay in a very high gear before offering up something more suitable for the speed its at, whether accelerator is touched or not.

As for training drivers in the BTSGTG method, i wonder when it changed, i took my test in '76 and the senior trainer who taught me most certainly didn’t drum any of that ■■■■■■■■ into me, the vehicle had to kept in an appropriate (braking) gear to its current speed during deceleration**…and the gearchange exercise was conducted at least once a day on the full 10 day course, appropriate gear control of the vehicle was drummed in…10 day course eh, time to teach someone to control a lorry properly? and not just get ‘em through the test’?

**no exhaust brake fitted to the training vehicles was normal but then few British lorries had exhausters back then that i can remember, i’m trying to recall the first lorry i drove with an exhauster, probably 3 or 4 years later, certainly nothing on Gardners nor unblown ■■■■■■■ 205/220/250 as i recall, i think there was an exhaust brake on the Volvo 86/88 (and they needed it), can’t remember about the Scanny 110 probably, first worthwhile retarder was a Jake on an ex demo ■■■■■■■ engined Sed Ack in '84, that barely needed normal brakes at all and they never needed replacement in the years i had it.

It’s disappointing to see how completely out of touch the training with the real world is if these ideas are current training, not a shred of mechanical sympathy nor economical long life vehicle operation, why on earth would a lorry driver not fully utilise systems the maker went to all the trouble and expense of fitting in the first place.

Yes the brakes are marvellous these days in comparison to previous generations of that there is no doubt, but why would you use the brakes alone when you simply don’t need to (trainers and in company trainer/assessors aint paying the bills), it’s not a car it’s a working industrial heavy vehicle which someone (maybe the owner/driver) has invested in as part of their business, the driver if he/she has any sense should instinctively want their vehicle to be as economical and safe in use as possible with an absolute minimum in costs and downtime for repairs which were not and will not be needed if the vehicle is driven correctly, as designed by the maker with a bit of mechanical sympathy.

The job gets further dumbed down, is this why we need adaptive cruise and electric parking brakes and automatic gearboxes now.

Whats ironic to me is the false economies, the fuss some trainer/assessors make about 5 minutes idling (those upstairs can see on the telematics so we’ll make a song and dance) costing peanuts, yet encouraging abusing the vehicle from cold and switching it straight off when the turbos still glowing, and as in this thread solely using the brakes day in day out…all the above is OK lads its someone else’s fivers we’re lighting.

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newmercman:
All this talk of modern vehicles and back in the day blah blah blah is complete and utter ■■■■■■■■.

No matter when a lorry was built or when the driver learned to drive the fundamentals are the same, you have a big lump of kinetic energy that you need to slow down, the correct method to do it today, as it was donkey’s years ago is with a balance of safety and efficiency.

So safety, using the engine brake and downshifting means that you are slowing the vehicle in a smooth fashion, that’s good, now if for any reason you need to stop quicker than expected all you need to do is hit the brakes and as if by magic, you will. So it isn’t just about brake fade and nostalgia.

Now, efficiency. The fastest and most economical method of driving is smoothly, so accelerating up to the braking point and hitting the brakes, waiting for a gap and block changing down to the correct gear and accelerating away is not smooth, not on the lorry and not on the load. Whereas moderating speed by using the engine brake and downshifting so you’re in the correct gear should you be able to eek moving is smooth, both on the lorry and the load.

This is why vehicle manufacturers now build lorries with very powerful engine brakes, they are complicated systems and they don’t put them there for the fun of it, they also don’t link the engine brake with the automated transmissions just because they can, they do all this as that is the correct and most efficient method of slowing down a lorry.

Braking systems have improved, no doubt about that, brake fade is highly unlikely in all but the most extreme conditions, but they haven’t been improved just to eliminate brake fade, they were improved to reduce stopping distances, just because they can handle repeated applications without breaking a sweat doesn’t mean that’s how they should be used.

This thread clearly shows the difference between drivers and licence holders, now that may sound arrogant and possibly confrontational, but hey ho.

Oh and Carryfast, stop with the stupid videos promoting the American way, most of these clowns over here couldn’t drive a greasy stick up a dog’s arse with a sledgehammer. The reason they shift sequentially is because they couldn’t block shift a constant mesh box if their lives depended on it, nothing more, nothing less.

They also still run drum brakes that do suffer from brake fade, so maybe that’s a good thing or they would cause even more carnage than they already cause in the hilly parts. I’ve seen countless trucks in emergency stopping gravel pits and plenty with their brakes smoking on hills that I run down on the Jake brake without touching the brakes at all, probably because they missed a gear and went into panic mode.

Another very well thought out and accurate post. It’s refreshing to see some drivers have the relevant knowledge to be able to understand the many changes of vehicles through the years.

newmercman I reckon you could make a first class LGV instructor and then maybe give carryfast a few lessons…LOL.

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Juddian:
Whats ironic to me is the false economies, the fuss some trainer/assessors make about 5 minutes idling (those upstairs can see on the telematics so we’ll make a song and dance) costing peanuts, yet encouraging abusing the vehicle from cold and switching it straight off when the turbos still glowing, and as in this thread solely using the brakes day in day out…all the above is OK lads its someone else’s fivers we’re lighting.

This is a classic example of how things have changed. 5 minutes idling is a complete waste of fuel. If a driver knows he will be stationary for 3+ minutes then it should be turned off. The extra wear and tear to starter and battery is outweighed by the cost of the diesel and engine wear when it is left idling. This wasn’t always the case but advances in battery and starter technology and reductions in production costs means it is now the case for a modern vehicle.

Also - most manufacturers now advocate ‘start it and drive it’ as well as ‘switch it off when you stop’. The days of letting turbos ‘spin down’ before switching off and engines ‘warm up’ before driving are to some degree days gone by. Modern engineering tolerances and oils mean there will be far less wear to the engine if it is started and then driven on a moderate throttle for the first few miles than left idling to warm up. It will warm far quicker by being driven. The same sort of thing for turbos - on a modern motor the bearings and oils and general quality compared to turbos of years gone by mean that generally turning the engine off at the end of the day does no harm. Maybe - just maybe if you have just gone from driving at maximum torque with the turbo at max revs and then stop straight away and switch off then maybe some harm may be done. But in most cases we drive into a park place/yard etc at slow speed and by the time we are switching off the turbo has long since cooled to an acceptable degree etc.

Of course many won’t agree with what I say as it is against their current mindset and opposite to what they were probably taught - but things do change.

I just bought a new motorbike. I’m old school and would have expected to have to ‘run it in’ for a thousand miles etc. Nope - just avoid prolonged full throttle for the first 600 miles. You can take it up the red line - just don’t hold it there. Goes completely against my principals but according to their technicians if I was gentle on it and kept the revs down etc etc it’d end up an oil burning underperforming lump. Things change.

shep532:

Juddian:
Whats ironic to me is the false economies, the fuss some trainer/assessors make about 5 minutes idling (those upstairs can see on the telematics so we’ll make a song and dance) costing peanuts, yet encouraging abusing the vehicle from cold and switching it straight off when the turbos still glowing, and as in this thread solely using the brakes day in day out…all the above is OK lads its someone else’s fivers we’re lighting.

This is a classic example of how things have changed. 5 minutes idling is a complete waste of fuel. If a driver knows he will be stationary for 3+ minutes then it should be turned off. The extra wear and tear to starter and battery is outweighed by the cost of the diesel and engine wear when it is left idling. This wasn’t always the case but advances in battery and starter technology and reductions in production costs means it is now the case for a modern vehicle.

Also - most manufacturers now advocate ‘start it and drive it’ as well as ‘switch it off when you stop’. The days of letting turbos ‘spin down’ before switching off and engines ‘warm up’ before driving are to some degree days gone by. Modern engineering tolerances and oils mean there will be far less wear to the engine if it is started and then driven on a moderate throttle for the first few miles than left idling to warm up. It will warm far quicker by being driven. The same sort of thing for turbos - on a modern motor the bearings and oils and general quality compared to turbos of years gone by mean that generally turning the engine off at the end of the day does no harm. Maybe - just maybe if you have just gone from driving at maximum torque with the turbo at max revs and then stop straight away and switch off then maybe some harm may be done. But in most cases we drive into a park place/yard etc at slow speed and by the time we are switching off the turbo has long since cooled to an acceptable degree etc.

Of course many won’t agree with what I say as it is against their current mindset and opposite to what they were probably taught - but things do change.

I just bought a new motorbike. I’m old school and would have expected to have to ‘run it in’ for a thousand miles etc. Nope - just avoid prolonged full throttle for the first 600 miles. You can take it up the red line - just don’t hold it there. Goes completely against my principals but according to their technicians if I was gentle on it and kept the revs down etc etc it’d end up an oil burning underperforming lump. Things change.

Ah yes, the new Gucci oils.

New whizzo washing powder, whiter than nuclear white, be the envy of all the other mums at the school when teachers are blinded by the whiter than white finish on Kylie’s whites.

Now we’ve got the worlds best oils, which apparently last forever, you can do whatever you like to your engine and turbo new Gucci oil will protect it.

Yes i’m being ironic, don’t take offence its only me.

However, turbo failure on those horrible old engines lubed by simple and regularly changed engine oil which silly old buggers like us used to warm up and cool down and treat with some sympathy was almost unheard of, whilst turbo failure is now so common as to be almost a service job.

As for modern engines, cleanliness and tolerances we keep reading about, and don’t get me started on long life oil servicing, i offer this for our discerning posters to peruse…it’s not on a lorry engine it’s the 1.6Hdi as fitted to PSA/Ford/Volvo , enjoy…
assuredperformance.ie/assets … issues.pdf

Juddian:
As for modern engines, cleanliness and tolerances we keep reading about, and don’t get me started on long life oil servicing, i offer this for our discerning posters to peruse…it’s not on a lorry engine it’s the 1.6Hdi as fitted to PSA/Ford/Volvo , enjoy…
assuredperformance.ie/assets … issues.pdf

Ahhh the good old 1.6 HDi. I had a 2008 Peugeot 308 with this very engine in it. At around 32,000 miles the big red oil pressure light came on and clatter clatter bang bang I stopped. The culprit was carbon build up exactly as per the document you linked to. Local garage got it all sorted and engine rebuilt - red light came on again about 4000 miles later - got it sorted again and traded it in! Sorry if anyone on here bought it :wink:

I saw inside my engine and it wasn’t as bad as the one you linked to but for 32,000 miles it was a mess. The oil feed (or return - can’t remember) to the turbo had blocked solid with carbon causing the lack of oil pressure. Lack of regular servicing is the culprit. Or wrong oil.

Many manufacturers now have sealed for life assemblies or long life oils but I personally think as long as the manufacturers servicing schedules are followed and the correct oils used there won’t be a problem. Turns out my Peugeot had a non Peugeot oil filter and had probably been serviced on the cheap with the wrong oil.

And you are right - a turbo is pretty much a consumable product now and becoming almost a service item on some brands but they are a lot cheaper nowadays :unamused:

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Oh god he’s off on another mad one again, now it’s LPG.

Stand by for some YouTube videos :unamused:

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Carryfast:

newmercman:
Oh god he’s off on another mad one again, now it’s LPG.

Stand by for some YouTube videos :unamused:

Admittedly that was off topic so I’ve deleted it.

Ha Ha maybe you need to delete some more! Just a quick question for you seeing you did not answer my others.

What do you think the purpose of the gear changing exercise in an LGV test is for?

albion1971:

Carryfast:

newmercman:
Oh god he’s off on another mad one again, now it’s LPG.

Stand by for some YouTube videos :unamused:

Admittedly that was off topic so I’ve deleted it.

What do you think the purpose of the gear changing exercise in an LGV test is for?

Was for.

I take it they have stopped that exercise from what you say Juddian. Do you know the reason? I can only think it is because there are more and more auto’s about or maybe manual gearboxes are so easy now they think anyone can use them properly.

albion1971:
I take it they have stopped that exercise from what you say Juddian. Do you know the reason? I can only think it is because there are more and more auto’s about or maybe manual gearboxes are so easy now they think anyone can use them properly.

Stopped a few years ago, together with the controlled stop test.

Baby’s thrown out with the bathwater…what excuse they came up with at the time i haven’t a clue, i long ago gave up wondering what next.

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Carryfast:

albion1971:

Carryfast:

newmercman:
Oh god he’s off on another mad one again, now it’s LPG.

Stand by for some YouTube videos :unamused:

Admittedly that was off topic so I’ve deleted it.

Ha Ha maybe you need to delete some more! Just a quick question for you seeing you did not answer my others.

What do you think the purpose of the gear changing exercise in an LGV test is for?

Why would I need to delete anything which is on topic. :unamused:

The gear changing exercise seems to have been a reasonable idea,originating in the days before synchro boxes became widely used,to obviously to make sure that the candidate wasn’t going to be a total liability out on the road.Which ironically seems to have equally obviously become irrelevant with the large scale use of synchro boxes.Together with the lowering of training/testing standards to the point where even single clutched downshifts don’t need to be rev matched let alone double de clutched. :bulb:

The issue in the case of the topic being another lowering of training/testing standards.To the point where we’ve got new drivers running around without a clue,as to the finer points of controlling a vehicle properly,using a correctly timed combination of brakes and gears,on the approach to hazards and junctions etc etc in total ignorance of the idea of engine braking. :unamused:

Do you really want me to answer that first question? lol.

Listen while I agree with you that standards have dropped when it comes to driving in general we have to remember vehicles have changed a lot and therefore can be driven differently. I am not a mechanical engineer but was told by a very reliable source that to double de clutch on some modern vehicles can cause them damage.
Anyway that is irrelevant because you can still drive a modern LGV safely without double de clutching.

I also think training standards have dropped but that is not down to the trainers (who you seem to blame) but down to the governing bodies but that is only when the company is properly qualified through RTITB etc.
One big problem is that training companies do not have to be qualified (unless that has changed recently) and consequently you have untrained lorry drivers passing on incorrect knowledge a lot of the time.

Regarding the standards of testing I agree with you it is low but it always has been.Nothing has changed ever. It is more about luck than skill and the test is far too simple for today’s road conditions. You would be amazed at what you can get away with on a driving test and still pass.

You seem to be of the opinion all new drivers are bad which is not the case and sometimes it is the older more experienced drivers that are a big problem. Complacency is not a good thing.

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Whats next I wonder, how more easy are they going to make it for guys to get a truck licence, biggest mistake they made was allowing people to get there licence on an auto and give them rights to drive a manual…

Me thinks the test and training needs to be made a lot harder, needs to cover more in my view

Carryfast:

albion1971:

Carryfast:
The gear changing exercise seems to have been a reasonable idea,originating in the days before synchro boxes became widely used,to obviously to make sure that the candidate wasn’t going to be a total liability out on the road.Which ironically seems to have equally obviously become irrelevant with the large scale use of synchro boxes.Together with the lowering of training/testing standards to the point where even single clutched downshifts don’t need to be rev matched let alone double de clutched. :bulb:

The issue in the case of the topic being another lowering of training/testing standards.To the point where we’ve got new drivers running around without a clue,as to the finer points of controlling a vehicle properly,using a correctly timed combination of brakes and gears,on the approach to hazards and junctions etc etc in total ignorance of the idea of engine braking. :unamused:

Listen while I agree with you that standards have dropped when it comes to driving in general we have to remember vehicles have changed a lot and therefore can be driven differently. I am not a mechanical engineer but was told by a very reliable source that to double de clutch on some modern vehicles can cause them damage.
Anyway that is irrelevant because you can still drive a modern LGV safely without double de clutching.

I also think training standards have dropped but that is not down to the trainers (who you seem to blame) but down to the governing bodies but that is only when the company is properly qualified through RTITB etc.
One big problem is that training companies do not have to be qualified (unless that has changed recently) and consequently you have untrained lorry drivers passing on incorrect knowledge a lot of the time.

Regarding the standards of testing I agree with you it is low but it always has been.Nothing has changed ever. It is more about luck than skill and the test is far too simple for today’s road conditions. You would be amazed at what you can get away with on a driving test and still pass.

You seem to be of the opinion all new drivers are bad which is not the case and sometimes it is the older more experienced drivers that are a big problem. Complacency is not a good thing.

In this case we are discussing a specific flaw in the training and arguably testing regimes related to the issue of slowing down a truck correctly on the approach to hazards etc.‘Correctly’ in this case meaning the ‘correct’ use of both gears and brakes bearing in mind the fact that whatever anyone ‘would like to think’ service brakes are ‘not’ designed to be used in isolation without the combination of engine braking.The information available suggests that the test regime won’t fail anyone for not using the brakes to slow block change gears to go idea.Nor would it/should it fail anyone for rev matching single clutched downshifts on synchro boxes.

Notwithstanding the argument that even double de clutched shifts with synchro boxes will just have the advantageous effect of making the shift faster while taking load off the synchro components and possibly even making the difference between disaster or getting the gear,by stopping the synchro from obstructing it in a make or break downshift to save a potential runaway situation. :bulb:

All of which points to a failure in the training regime more than the testing regime. :bulb:

No that is what your discussing and in your own head you have decided you are correct. Do you really think a qualified driving examiner would pass a candidate if he did not think a driver could not approach a hazard correctly? If there was any doubt there was a problem with that there would be no pass given.
The problem is because the test is so easy and the training is too short and intense that some drivers forget what they have been taught or in a lot of cases drive how they want to drive.
You really have got things way out of proportion.

Swampey2418:
Whats next I wonder, how more easy are they going to make it for guys to get a truck licence, biggest mistake they made was allowing people to get there licence on an auto and give them rights to drive a manual…

Me thinks the test and training needs to be made a lot harder, needs to cover more in my view

Spot on I have been saying the same thing for years.