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Ya all have fun now, driving your AEC Mandators and Leyland Octopuses. âŚ
Donât forget to floor the throttle for five minutes on startup, just like a real trucker.
Bloody Hell, Hand bags at 10 paces,.,. All I will say is that in over 40 years of driving I think I have learnt a little.,., 1st rule is look far ahead, giving you plenty of time to slow down. 2nd rule use the bloody engine to slow you down its designed to be used for that. use the brakes only when you NEED them. No stupid bickering here just facts, and if any of you so called drivers disagree, then I can assure you that you aint no professional driver.,.
I think the drivers are all in agreement with you yoyo5, the steering wheel attendants will disagree though.
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Iâm amazed that it would occur to any responsible driver of a lorry to drive with any method other than âgears to slowâ! Even in my modern car, I approach a roundabout in exactly the same way as I would have done with a B-series ERF in the olden days, except I donât need an exhaust brake because my car is light enough to be held by the engine.
Changing down on the approach, approximately where the roundabout sign is, a touch on the brakes and change down again as you near the roundabout - you are now in complete control of the vehicle and have avoided approaching too quickly - and ten yards before the roundabout you choose the gear that will take you round the roundabout SO THAT YOU DONâT HAVE TO TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF THE WHEEL! With this method, you are able to take stock of your surroundings and make excellent, safe progress. In doing so, you have saved your brakes (lives are more important than bean-countersâ bills for hot cogs - something Iâve never experienced,by the way).
And if I had to engage 1st gear in my lorry to make it sail serenely down a Turkish mountain on the exhauster with scarcely any recourse to the brakes, then that is what I did, even if it took all morning. The beauty of the old constant mesh 'box was that it made you plan your drive! 
Robert
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There is a big difference between approaching a roundabout at an appropriate speed on a flat road and making your way down a mountain pass and both require different approaches to controlling the vehicle speed.
I think some comments in this thread are based on vehicles as they once were when brakes were less efficient and perhaps more fragile and gearboxes were much harder to use. Modern vehicles need driving in a different manner - donât they? They arenât the same.
I suppose itâs about knowing which method to use where.
The driving test can be passed using both ways discussed in this thread as long as either is carried out correctly and safely. In most cases a test route would mean the brakes to slow and gears to go regime would be perfectly suitable. If the test included some mountain passes or other such routes then gears/engine/exhaust braking would be the desired method.
Modern disc brakes using ventilated discs and perhaps better aerodynamics to control air flow over brakes mean far less chance of overheating in normal driving conditions. There will still be occasions (long downhills etc) where it would be wise to save the brakes and drop the gears instead. I think gearing down on the approach to a roundabout in a 30 limit is a bit OTT for a modern vehicle.
time restraints mean candidates are being taught to pass the test - they learn to drive later. I know they are taught about using gears to slow (or they are where I send them) - questions regarding this are in the theory test bank of questions as well. But in most cases they are fine on brakes to slow - for the test.
Hopefully the instructors take the candidates out to places where they need to use gears to slow and teach them the difference in circumstances and environment - then theyâll know which method to employ and where. For an HGV driving test theyâd only need to use brakes to slow because of the environment of the test.
Basically - and I think Rog mentioned this - we need staged testing where the driver progresses through varying tests to become that âclass 1â driver of great skill. Or maybe just extend the current test to include tricky down and uphill driving whilst fully loaded.
One of the best posts so far shep.
You have got it spot on in every respect.
Regarding taking trainees out to places to give them experience is unfortunately a thing of the past.
In my early days of training you had the time to do these things and teach drivers to be drivers.
Now there is hardly enough time to get them up to test standard never mind anything else.
Sadly itâs all about time and money and hence driving standards seem to be going downhill.
To me modern trucks have become too easy to drive and can be driven like a car and in some cases that is how they seem to be taught to drive them.
Not good.
I have avoided this forum for a while, and especially this thread but although Shep has said its a different era with different vehicles most drivers of my age and above had already done a few months graft before taking a driving test, they were certainly aware of the different handling characteristics of a laden vehicle and the difference between a downrated driving school vehicle, without a load.
We were taught different things in my day, like dont use the front brake on a push bike. I still ride a motorbike and teach people to use the front brake only, the rear brake works like a handbrake at traffic lights and for control on a u turn.
With my V twin it has enough engine braking to shut the throttle and it will slow down, with my four cylinder you need to use the gearbox to slow down.
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Carryfast:
shep and albion I think the point is the two types of driving,based on gears to slow v brakes/block change only on the approach,be it a roundabout on the flat,wether NSL or 30 mph or the start of a long steep decent are so incompatible as to be a case of either or,one or other,on a mutually exclusive basis.Trying to mix the two,especially on the basis of putting the emphasis on brakes to slow/block change to go,is just going to risk that instinctive programming needed to be put into the traineeâs brain.Possibly and foreseeably to the point where when the chips are down it is the brakes that get relied on when it should be the gears because that is the method that has been drilled into the traineeâs head.On that note,although weâve only got sound to go by,it is a reasonable bet that the US training example which Iâve posted certainly isnât a case of severe terrain.It is just a case of instilling that,natural,instinctive,downshifting gears to slow method of approach which is obviously missing in the UK training environment.While I donât think that ( rightly ) anything would change in that regard even âifâ the US industry made the wholesale change overnight to disc brakes and synchro boxes.
While the description provided with that example,proves that the excuse of time and money,in regard to UK training sector resistance to that essential programming of traineeâs brains,regards correct use of gears to slow a truck,at all times,is just total bs.
YaawnâŚ
its like watching Dave.
Iâll drive my modern truck like it should be driven. You keep watching your video, and think of the good old days. .
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All this talk of modern vehicles and back in the day blah blah blah is complete and utter â â â â â â â â .
No matter when a lorry was built or when the driver learned to drive the fundamentals are the same, you have a big lump of kinetic energy that you need to slow down, the correct method to do it today, as it was donkeyâs years ago is with a balance of safety and efficiency.
So safety, using the engine brake and downshifting means that you are slowing the vehicle in a smooth fashion, thatâs good, now if for any reason you need to stop quicker than expected all you need to do is hit the brakes and as if by magic, you will. So it isnât just about brake fade and nostalgia.
Now, efficiency. The fastest and most economical method of driving is smoothly, so accelerating up to the braking point and hitting the brakes, waiting for a gap and block changing down to the correct gear and accelerating away is not smooth, not on the lorry and not on the load. Whereas moderating speed by using the engine brake and downshifting so youâre in the correct gear should you be able to eek moving is smooth, both on the lorry and the load.
This is why vehicle manufacturers now build lorries with very powerful engine brakes, they are complicated systems and they donât put them there for the fun of it, they also donât link the engine brake with the automated transmissions just because they can, they do all this as that is the correct and most efficient method of slowing down a lorry.
Braking systems have improved, no doubt about that, brake fade is highly unlikely in all but the most extreme conditions, but they havenât been improved just to eliminate brake fade, they were improved to reduce stopping distances, just because they can handle repeated applications without breaking a sweat doesnât mean thatâs how they should be used.
This thread clearly shows the difference between drivers and licence holders, now that may sound arrogant and possibly confrontational, but hey ho.
Oh and Carryfast, stop with the stupid videos promoting the American way, most of these clowns over here couldnât drive a greasy stick up a dogâs arse with a sledgehammer. The reason they shift sequentially is because they couldnât block shift a constant mesh box if their lives depended on it, nothing more, nothing less.
They also still run drum brakes that do suffer from brake fade, so maybe thatâs a good thing or they would cause even more carnage than they already cause in the hilly parts. Iâve seen countless trucks in emergency stopping gravel pits and plenty with their brakes smoking on hills that I run down on the Jake brake without touching the brakes at all, probably because they missed a gear and went into panic mode.
I think the fact that manufacturers of auto LGVs are now producing vehicles where the auto holds the current gear until the accelerator is pressed again whilst braking says it all because if the brakes were not good enough to cope with that then we would have loads of incidents
Those auto boxes are now mimicking what is recommended for manuals
ROG:
I think the fact that manufacturers of auto LGVs are now producing vehicles where the auto holds the current gear until the accelerator is pressed again whilst braking says it all because if the brakes were not good enough to cope with that then we would have loads of incidentsThose auto boxes are now mimicking what is recommended for manuals
Thatâs fair enough, ROG, and Iâm glad this much progress is being made. My description of descending Turkish hills on the exhauster in low gear was, admittedly, a bit of a red herring because Iâve since descended such declines safely at three times the speed using modern brakes and engine-brakes. I should have pinned my argument on the roundabouts approach alone.
Iâm also not up to speed on new equipment, having retired. The last âmodernâ lorry I drove had ZF Eurotronic which I kept over-riding because it didnât do things safely enough: leaving it in âautoâ mode simply put profit before safety. Your post suggests that weâve moved on since then.
Shep532 rightly states that the main thing on the test is that the driver performs these tasks correctly and safely. I can see the problem here: in a light-weight, unladen, manual test vehicle either method would probably suffice for roundabout approaches. But there must be provision for (education for) a correct and safe approach to roundabouts using manual gears fully laden.
I donât envy trainers at this stage in lorry evolution! Robert
LGVs are now partially loaded for training and test
A few years ago I had two old school driver trainers at DHL try the brakes for slow and gears for go method with their own vehicles and fully loaded artics
After a few days they both agreed that the method I was suggesting caused less work by the driver and was perfectly safe for normal driving conditions
Whilst pondering on this thread it took me back to my military days and thinking how driving techniques changed as vehicles advanced.
So pull up a sandbag and sit yourself down while I tell you a story.
I used to drive a Centurion armoured recovery vehicle. Built in something like 1963 it had a 27 Litre V12 Rolls Royce a Meteor engine, crash gearbox and drum brakes and also weighed in at around 55t. The drum brakes were around 18 inches diameter and rod operated with no assistance at all. The brake pedal was big enough for 2 feet and on the odd occasion I used the brakes they often needed 2 feet. Driving this vehicle was all about the gearbox. It was an art some couldnât master but when driven well it was a pleasure. My vehicle was a recovery vehicle and I would need to control it often towing a Chieftain main battle tank weighing in at around 57t meaning at times the train weight was over 100t and we had drum brakes and crash gearbox.
Rumour had it that if you missed a gear change on a hill - up or down - the brakes would be gone within about 30 seconds meaning gear changes selecting the right gear in advance became crucial. I have experienced at least 2 ârunawaysâ having missed a gear. The brakes did very little but I was fortunate and didnât kill anyone but one occasion did cause much damage to German buildings!!!
So the Centurion was an ancient design. We also had Chieftains. Built in the 70âs we now had disc brakes and power assistance as well as a semi auto gearbox with centrifugal clutch It didnât change up for you but did change down if you didnât.
I was taught to drive the Chieftain and later had to learn to drive the Centurion. In the Chieftain we were taught to use the brakes to slow and leave the gears to the gearbox. It only changed down at very low revs meaning minimal engine braking. It was designed that way. We were relying on disc brakes alone and weighed in at 57t. I was a mechanic and changed LOTS of brake pads and a good few discs. Pads were a relatively quick job so designed for ease of changing. I have seen them worn right through and into the metal backing plate.
At some point my Centurion was changed for a Chieftain recovery vehicle. I took the skills I used in the Centurion over to the Chieftain and actively changed down gears to utilise engine braking. I can remember my commander telling me to stop changing down too early as it made him spill his beer (!). But - I drove my Chieftain for hundreds of miles more often than not with another on tow. I canât remember ever changing my brake pads in 2 years. I hardly ever used the brakes unless stationary. It was all about looking ahead and using the gears. Also - being a 2 stroke diesel it had crap engine braking anyway.
So - my long winded story is to show that vehicles have advanced and driving techniques changed with them but I donât think that is wrong. A knowledgeable driver will adapt his techniques to suit the situation. Unfortunately if they donât have that knowledge or experience they wonât and as more and more automated systems are brought in the skills of the driver will change and us âold schoolâ boys will think itâs wrong. Had I never driven the Centurion - Iâd have driven the Chieftain as I had been taught - using the brakes.
ROG:
LGVs are now partially loaded for training and testA few years ago I had two old school driver trainers at DHL try the brakes for slow and gears for go method with their own vehicles and fully loaded artics
After a few days they both agreed that the method I was suggesting caused less work by the driver and was perfectly safe for normal driving conditions
Your phrase ânormal driving conditionsâ reminded me that even the old test decades ago still focused on ânormal driving conditionsâ and didnât really prepare you for driving over the Alps at 38 tonnes up.
Much has been said about âdriver trainingâ on this thread. It ought to be recognised that LGV are much more than driver trainers. They are trainers in that they train drivers to be systematic. They are also instructors in that they develop a driverâs skills. They also teachers in that they pass on conceptual knowledge about basic physics and road law. But more importantly, they are educators in that they inculcate âroad-craftâ and safety consciousness. Like all good education, it has to move with the times. We probably need a better title to describe them: driving teachers?
Robert