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The thing is, all the training in the world won’t make a driver out of you if you’re not cut out for it.
The newbies that have contributed to this thread all appear to have the right attitude, so they’re on the right track. You learn a new thing everyday in this game and if we as experienced drivers don’t share our experience, how are the new boys going to learn? We weren’t born knowing it all and neither are they.
I am a little disappointed that there hasn’t been more input from driver trainers though. I’m sure they could make useful contributions to this thread.
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I don’t really have much of an opinion on trainers as my own experiences have been rather different from normal novice drivers.
When I took my class one I had already been driving artics for 3yrs, so I had the roadcraft thing sorted well enough. I was a naughty boy I know, but I wasn’t old enough to take the test or I would have.
My second test was for the IAM advanced HGV, which I did for an article I was writing whilst at TRUCK mag, again I had plenty of experience by then, so apart from telling me what was expected, the trainer/examiner had little input.
Then in Canada I was “trained” for my class one by a preacher (seriously!) who had almost zero on road experience, but then with over 20yrs of class one experience, I didn’t really need to be taught how to drive and the useless git spent most of the time snoozing in the jump seat as I drive around playing Rubber Duck in the big KW.
However training somebody with zero experience is an altogether different story, so I’m going to disagree with you on that aspect completely Carryfast. It can’t be easy.
I’ll risk getting howled at by the time served experts, who all still seem to be driving trucks with manual crash boxes and drum brakes…
My MAN has an auto gearbox which can be shifted ‘manually’ by using the stalk at the steering wheel. Have any of you heroes tried slowing down without the brakes? The box will only downshift if the revs are low enough. For that, you need to slow down first. If you dont slow down first, the box wont shift down. Well, it will eventually, but by that time you are in the back of the queue, two roundabouts further down the road… There is nothing more scary than the auto box attempting a down shift, and deciding that the revs are to high, and deciding to coast when you are approaching lights or a roundabout. (Yes, I detest the MAN excuse of a gearbox intensely. .).
And brake fade with modern disk brakes? If you manage to cook your brakes, during normal, level driving conditio s, you need to question your own driving attitude.
Some of us learned on ‘proper’ trucks, but we keep up with, and adapt to, modern improvements.
In reply to Nodding Donkey, i’m far from a hero just a time served pack horse mesen but for what its worth here’s my technique, MAN with AS tronic box.
Loaded, drive the vehicle in manual continually, the box annoys basically because i agree with you it’s crap, even in manual it’s still annoying waiting for the bloody gears to actually take and the response to manual input isn’t instant and precise like a automanual Scania (probably the best auto for manual input), and the thing will try to revert back to auto unless you put in manual mode either stationary or when in 12th, even then you might have to remind it whose in charge.
You maximise exhaust braking by keeping the revs in the correct range obviously, helpfully the highlighted torque markings on the rev counter shift right round to maximum engine braking range when the exhauster is triggered (manual or auto mode) and the available gear shifts are shown as little arrows on the display, so keeping it at max ■■■■■■ has been built in by the maker very well…maybe the lorry makers missed the police CAR drivers memo… 
Anyway, the vehicle will do this all for you in full auto mode when you press the exhauster button, but it’s not as effective as you might expect and it does continue right down to that nasty 7 to 5 lurch (still exhausting) which you wouldn’t do if driving it in manual, this appears to be able to be reprogrammed as one of our vehicles was so done, the driver still didn’t like it after reflash so never used the exhaust brake at all afterwards…discs/pads didn’t last long enough to seize in place mind… 
Wondering if your lorry needs reprogramming Nodding Donkey as mine has never found neutral however its driven.
As said in a previous post for most open road work its entirely possible even full weight loaded (we run full weight) to negotiate roundabouts and similar junctions without using the vehicles main brakes at all traffic permitting, no it’s not essential and the police CAR instructor circa 1963 might peer down his nose at this, but A he isn’t doing it, B he isn’t a lorry driver by trade, and C he isn’t paying for downtime discs pads and associated wear to the rest of the vehicle through braking when not necessary.
How does this translate to wear rates of brakes, well i’ve driven about 60% of the mileage on my regular vehicle on a mixture of roads (i know others drive on the brakes because the steer and mid lift wheels are caked in brake dust when i get it back), drive axle pads changed at around 280k and steering axle pads renewed at 300k, mid lift originals still show 50%, all original discs…i know the sister lorry’s on similar mileage are on their 3rd sets of pads in some cases and some discs on those have been renewed.
Thats just the tractor unit, there’s another 3 axles of brakes on the trailer, and no one’s counting down time at this point.
The reason i drive it thus also keeps the brakes as cool as possible should they be needed in a hurry or mechanical (partial braking) failure occur…
Juddian:
In reply to Nodding Donkey, i’m far from a hero just a time served pack horse mesen but for what its worth here’s my technique, MAN with AS tronic box.Loaded, drive the vehicle in manual continually, the box annoys basically because i agree with you it’s crap, even in manual it’s still annoying waiting for the bloody gears to actually take and the response to manual input isn’t instant and precise like a automanual Scania (probably the best auto for manual input), and the thing will try to revert back to auto unless you put in manual mode either stationary or when in 12th, even then you might have to remind it whose in charge.
You maximise exhaust braking by keeping the revs in the correct range obviuously, helpfully the highlighted torque markings on the rev counter shift right round to maximum engine braking range when the exhauster is triggered (manual or auto mode) and the available gear shifts are shown as little arrows on the display, so keeping it at max ■■■■■■ has been built in by the maker very well…maybe the lorry makers missed the police CAR drivers memo…
Anyway, the vehicle will do this all for you in full auto mode when you press the exhauster button, but it’s not as effective as you might expect and it does continue right down to that nasty 7 to 5 lurch (still exhausting) which you wouldn’t do if driving it in manual, this appears to be able to be reprogrammed as one of our vehicles was so done, the driver still didn’t like it after reflash so never used the exhaust brake at all afterwards…discs/pads didn’t last long enough to seize in place mind…
Wondering if your lorry needs reprogramming Nodding Donkey as mine has never found neutral however its driven.
As said in a previous post for most open road work its entirely possible even full weight loaded (we run full weight) to negotiate roundabouts and similar junctions without using the vehicles main brakes at all traffic permitting, no it’s not essential and the police CAR instructor circa 1963 might peer down his nose at this, but A he isn’t doing it, B he isn’t a lorry driver by trade, and C he isn’t paying for downtime discs pads and associated wear to the rest of the vehicle through braking when not necessary.
How does this translate to wear rates of brakes, well i’ve driven about 60% of the mileage on my regular vehicle on a mixture of roads (i know others drive on the brakes because the steer and mid lift wheels are caked in brake dust when i get it back), drive axle pads changed at around 280k and steering axle pads renewed at 300k, mid lift originals still show 50%, all original discs…i know the sister lorry’s on similar mileage are on their 3rd sets of pads in some cases and some discs on those have been renewed.
Thats just the tractor unit, there’s another 3 axles of brakes on the trailer, and no one’s counting down time at this point.The reason i drive it thus also keeps the brakes as cool as possible should they be needed in a hurry or mechanical (partial braking) failure occur…
Thanks Juddian, a very good and informative reply. I have driven FH12, for years, which have a mucg, much better box and exhaust brake than the MAN. Still, that is no excuse for not getting it right with the MAN. I do try as much as possibke to slow down on the exhaust and ggearbox, but in traffic it just feels to unreliable, random and slow.
Oh, and as for being in the right gear at a roundabout ti be able ti pull out… only after the accelerator committy has liaised with the gearbox committy, and got the go ahead of the brake collective… lol.
And I know what people mean when talking about using brakes to much. If any of you ever go to Westbury Dairy, check the floor at the entrance barrier. . Littered with those little yellow wheel nut arrows, molten of the wheel nuts.
Nodding Donkey.
Yeah compared to a Volvo box it’s a bag of carp (mine goes for a majority vote before allowing the gear to engage ), and the Volvo retarder is excellent…my biggest gripe with Volvos is the massive blind spots created by the wardrobe mirrors they let the work experience lad design and fit…it appears the new ones have at last (what 10 years too late?) addressed this problem…mind you MAN mirrors are nothing to shout about here.
The few times i’ve let the MAN do it’s own thing retarding in auto mode it immediately drops from 12th to 10th (spot on), which it then sometimes (but not always) holds far too long allowing the revs to drop to ineffective range, yet further down the speed drops it insists on that 7th to 5th drop which is so violent and unnecessary that i can understand why many drivers just don’t bother with the thing at all…is that how yours is behaving?
One other gripe with the AS Tronic, it only allows block shifts of max three gears at any one time, and a sudden traffic change at a junction can leave you as stranded as you would be if you left it to the several committees that oversee full auto…to be fair the Volvo is so good that you never need to interfere 99% of the time and the Scania while not anywhere near the Volvo in auto, in manual so responsive, both in shift times and that it will let you block shift 4 gears if needed instantly.
Juddian:
Nodding Donkey.
Yeah compared to a Volvo box it’s a bag of carp (mine goes for a majority vote before allowing the gear to engageThe few times i’ve let the MAN do it’s own thing retarding in auto mode it immediately rops from 12th to 10th (spot on), which it then sometimes (but not always) holds far too long allowing the revs to drop to ineffective range, yet further down the speed drops it insists on that 7th to 5th drop which is so violent and unnecessary that i can understand why many drivers just don’t bother with the thing at all…is that how yours is behaving?
One other gripe with the AS Tronic, it only allows block shifts of max three gears at any one time, and a sudden traffic change at a junction can leave you as stranded as you would be if you left it to the several committees that oversee full auto…to be fair the Volvo is so good that you never need to interfere 99% of the time and the Scania while not anywhere near the Volvo in auto, in manual so responsive, both in shift times and that it will let you block shift 4 gears if needed instantly.
Yep, exactly so. So bad that depending on load and traffic, it is easier o the nerves to use the brakes to slow. Dont get me wrong, I prefer to drive using the box and exhaust brake, but the MAN box seems to almost have been designed to discourage that.
Oh yes, the mirrors. I’ve considered renting out the backs as advertising hoardings…
nearly had a prang on a roundabout the other day. Luckily I keep checking and cheking again.
My TGX is due to be replaced soon. Cant wait to see the back of it. The comfortable bunk and seat are its only saving grace.
newmercman:
I am a little disappointed that there hasn’t been more input from driver trainers though. I’m sure they could make useful contributions to this thread.
Maybe coz they are hiding in the newbie and wannabe section of Trucknet…lmao
Its the same old cause of most problems in life…Money.
Trainers have a business. They need to make money. Trainers job is to train. Examiners simply have to see that you do ‘enough’ to pass the test. Examiner goes home to their family and never give you another thought. My journey over the last 18 months going up to CE,has shown me that it is down to ME alone to ensure as far as possible,that I am safe to operate LGV’s,and that the load (again somebodys product,often an expensive outlay),reaches its destination in one piece.
It seems to me that hardly ANY of my training has addressed the ’ Real world of LGV driving '.
I have a healthy respect for the carnage that is caused with these large vehicles. I believe footage of serious accidents (with the blessing of families consent),could be a valuable addition to any training regime. I am not saying trainees should be ’ scared ’ of lorries,but I think defensive driving should be given a far more prominent role within the training stage.
eagerbeaver:
I think defensive driving should be given a far more prominent role within the training stage.
That would happen for all drivers if we had graduated licencing
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Why would you want to reduce safety by keep removing one hand from the wheel to change gear when it can be kept there and the brakes alone used to stop or greatly slow down the vehicle which they have been designed to do
There is also the issue of component wear - which is cheaper - to replace gear components or brake pads ?
To get a definitive ask a vehicle manufacturer how their vehicle is designed to be used and then ask the driving experts as well
If they both come up with the same answer …
I cant imagine many incidents are the result of having one hand on the wheel instead of two ROG.
ROG:
Why would you want to reduce safety by keep removing one hand from the wheel to change gear when it can be kept there and the brakes alone used to stop or greatly slow down the vehicle which they have been designed to doThere is also the issue of component wear - which is cheaper - to replace gear components or brake pads ?
To get a definitive ask a vehicle manufacturer how their vehicle is designed to be used and then ask the driving experts as well
If they both come up with the same answer …
Well from my experience of vehicle manufacturer training, ie Volvo, they’re very keen on the driver using their rather good auxiliary braking system, a system which used in conjunction with the autobox will quite often select a gear which take the revs out of the green band, especially on hill descents.
As for driving experts, who decides they’re experts? Is it because they’ve passed some government sanctioned training course or do they have years of real world experience?
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Swampey2418:
newmercman:
I am a little disappointed that there hasn’t been more input from driver trainers though. I’m sure they could make useful contributions to this thread.Maybe coz they are hiding in the newbie and wannabe section of Trucknet…lmao
Exactly the point I was making!
You don’t have to have a licence to read posts in other forums…
ROG:
Why would you want to reduce safety by keep removing one hand from the wheel to change gear when it can be kept there and the brakes alone used to stop or greatly slow down the vehicle which they have been designed to doThere is also the issue of component wear - which is cheaper - to replace gear components or brake pads ?
To get a definitive ask a vehicle manufacturer how their vehicle is designed to be used and then ask the driving experts as well
If they both come up with the same answer …
Reduce safety by taking one hand off the wheel! Are you for real? Seriously, that has to be the most ridiculous comment I’ve ever read on these forums.
I’ve always driven using the gears to slow method and not just on the approach to roundabouts and junctions, but down mountain passes too, lots of them.
In those situations I use maximum retardation from the auxiliary braking system, so high rpms and lots of downshifting, depending on the power of the system that could mean dropping from 16th gear to 2nd.
As amazing as it sounds, I’ve never crashed due to the unsafe practice of taking my hand from the wheel to downshift and in 29yrs, I’ve never had a driveline component fail or suffer from excessive wear.
No wonder we have so many Muppets out there driving lorries, if you’re an example of the standard of training they receive.