As a driver of 30 years and being taught to read the road and slow using the gears but a complete newbie to an artic slowing down for junctions I use the engine brake and then the brakes in the autos that we have . I can see where this thread is aimed but doesn’t a lot depend on the drivers understanding of how to slow down in their vehicle and to be aware of the differences that their loads make to the processes of moving and stopping . If someone who has passed their car test in recent years is now driving a hgv are they taught about reading the road and adjusting their driving to suit ?
On ny hgv tests I was told about the retarder but not encouraged to use it , it is only since passing my tests that I have took it upon myself to use the retarder to help . And yes I passed in an auto both classes and have only driven autos since so according to what you guys are saying I have little or no idea how to drive !
As an experienced artic driver told me modern trucks with abs and disc brakes are really efficient and at least one trucker at our place only uses the brakes to stop .
Is this whole argument not about reading the situation as you approach and reacting accordingly ?
As a newbie I know I’m still learning but as eagerbeaver said you can feel the difference from unladen to laden and fully laden and can feel the difference in how the lorry handles . I was told that you have to pay extra when ordering a manual lorry over an auto so does this mean we all have to relearn how to slow down ?
Feel free to shoot me down over my comments but if autos are now the way should we be taught about the retarder and downshifting using manual mode ? Or is there an assumption that new technology negates the need for too much input from the driver ?
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Carryfast:
Gillberry:
As a driver of 30 years and being taught to read the road and slow using the gears but a complete newbie to an artic slowing down for junctions I use the engine brake and then the brakes in the autos that we have I was told that you have to pay extra when ordering a manual lorry over an auto so does this mean we all have to relearn how to slow down ?
Feel free to shoot me down over my comments but if autos are now the way should we be taught about the retarder and downshifting using manual mode ? Or is there an assumption that new technology negates the need for too much input from the driver ?Basically an auto box doesn’t have eyes attached to its ECU so realistically the idea of auto downshifts on the approach isn’t going to work because it just ain’t bright enough to be able to differentiate the approach to a long/steep down grade or busy roundabout from an open curve on the flat.From what I’ve read I think I wouldn’t mind an I shift set to manual override in combination with engine brake of whatever type in that regard.While the retarder video elsewhere suggests that facility is usually available on most types of auto.
My Renault has 3 settings for its exhaust brake. Stages one and two are gradual, using nearly all of each gear to slow the truck. If you knock the lever down again it goes into “Max” mode which will drop the gears to keep the revs as high as possible to slow the truck.
Just because it doesn’t have eyes on the ECU doesn’t excuse you the driver from reading the road. By applying the exhaust brake in good time you might not need to use the foot brake until the last 20mph is needed to be scrubbed off.
Carryfast:
Basically an auto box doesn’t have eyes attached to its ECU so realistically the idea of auto downshifts on the approach isn’t going to work because it just ain’t bright enough to be able to differentiate the approach to a long/steep down grade or busy roundabout from an open curve on the flat.From what I’ve read I think I wouldn’t mind an I shift set to manual override in combination with engine brake of whatever type in that regard.While the retarder video elsewhere suggests that facility is usually available on most types of auto.
So this comes down to being taught to read the road and assess the situation ahead as to what action you need to take . It also needs instructors to teach pupils about retarders and how to use them combined with how to downshift an auto box using manual mode .
Those like me who’ve been driving for years should have an idea of reading the road and how to deal with situations before we undertake hgv training but what about new drivers who are now getting into hgv ?
Gillberry:
Carryfast:
Basically an auto box doesn’t have eyes attached to its ECU so realistically the idea of auto downshifts on the approach isn’t going to work because it just ain’t bright enough to be able to differentiate the approach to a long/steep down grade or busy roundabout from an open curve on the flat.From what I’ve read I think I wouldn’t mind an I shift set to manual override in combination with engine brake of whatever type in that regard.While the retarder video elsewhere suggests that facility is usually available on most types of auto.So this comes down to being taught to read the road and assess the situation ahead as to what action you need to take . It also needs instructors to teach pupils about retarders and how to use them combined with how to downshift an auto box using manual mode .
Those like me who’ve been driving for years should have an idea of reading the road and how to deal with situations before we undertake hgv training but what about new drivers who are now getting into hgv ?
They learn. I only passed in August. I wasn’t told to use any of the gadgets like CC and the exhaust brake during training. You are making out that these newbies are incapable of learning? When you first got behind the wheel, you didn’t know half the stuff you do now. These newbies are where you were when you started.
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Radar19 I quite agree we all started somewhere and I myself am new to hgv and artics and am now in the learning curve where experience is gained as time passes . As I stated in one of my previous posts I passed both classes in an auto which means according to some posters that if I get in a manual then I will be a danger on the roads as I will get confused having to make gear changes !
The points that I am trying to raise are that we are all different but each of us in getting to the level we are at has shown the ability to be aware of what we are driving and the ability to read the situation . Some of us pick up quicker than others and some will be better drivers than others but we are all drivers .
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Carryfast , trainers teach you to pass a test so they are doing their job . How do you teach someone to deal with different situations and how to deal with them ? Maybe my instructors felt That telling me about the retarder and manual mode was sufficient for me but they actually show other trainees ?
On the newbie forum there a lot of trainers surely input from them regarding training today is what’s needed for a true answer .
Carryfast I see you still have not answered my questions. Never mind. It only proves one thing.
I must say there’s a lot of interesting knowledgeable views on here.
One thing I find fascinating is the fact that some criticize training companies and their instructors without really knowing what it all about.
I would love to see then taking out a trainee and trying to get them through the test in a matter of a few days.
It is probably an awful lot different to what you actually think especially if the candidate is not too bright or an argumentative type like Carryfast that can’t be told he is wrong!
I guarantee there views would be completely different then and am sure Rog would back me up on that.
Personally I am so happy to be completely retired and away from driving trucks and training people forever because nothing seems to be improving.
Gillberry:
Carryfast , trainers teach you to pass a test so they are doing their job . How do you teach someone to deal with different situations and how to deal with them ? Maybe my instructors felt That telling me about the retarder and manual mode was sufficient for me but they actually show other trainees ?
On the newbie forum there a lot of trainers surely input from them regarding training today is what’s needed for a true answer .
I can tell you the reason for that. You have enough to concentrate on without thinking about using a retarder.
If a candidate does use the retarder on a test it has to be used properly so most instructors will tell their students not to bother but will explain how it works and when it should be used.
I am sure you will back me up that there is an awful lot to think about going out on test after a few days intense training.
I have just had a short assessment drive before going in for my C.
This is the hardest bit for me so far. I am being told to only use brakes for slowing and it feels unnatural. Previously I have used a balanced approach using both engine and brakes to slow down aiming to be in the right gear for example at a roundabout.
Using just the the brakes means a last minute “panic” to pick the right gear in an unfamiliar vehicle. Obviously not a panic but it doesn’t feel right going from top speed to very slow using only brakes and only then putting down clutch to change gear to the right one.
I am sure I will get to grips with it for the test but as soon as the test is over I will probably end up going back to what feels safer and more natural. That being a combination of engine and brakes.
That being said I am a newbie at this and will happily be corrected if my view is wrong.
albion1971:
Gillberry:
Carryfast , trainers teach you to pass a test so they are doing their job . How do you teach someone to deal with different situations and how to deal with them ? Maybe my instructors felt That telling me about the retarder and manual mode was sufficient for me but they actually show other trainees ?
On the newbie forum there a lot of trainers surely input from them regarding training today is what’s needed for a true answer .I can tell you the reason for that. You have enough to concentrate on without thinking about using a retarder.
If a candidate does use the retarder on a test it has to be used properly so most instructors will tell their students not to bother but will explain how it works and when it should be used.
I am sure you will back me up that there is an awful lot to think about going out on test after a few days intense training.
Yes I can back you up on that but the question then is who teaches you ? How do you learn ?
I listened to and observed other drivers and then tried it in practice the same as the day when I have to drive a manual I will deal with it . There does seem to be those who think that newbie drivers are incapable of finding things out for themselves and as such are dangerous , so what do we do to stop the generalisation that all new drivers are no good ? Surely if someone does not have the ability to drive a hgv safely the instructors will pick this up at the teaining stage ?
Gromett:
I have just had a short assessment drive before going in for my C.This is the hardest bit for me so far. I am being told to only use brakes for slowing and it feels unnatural. Previously I have used a balanced approach using both engine and brakes to slow down aiming to be in the right gear for example at a roundabout.
Using just the the brakes means a last minute “panic” to pick the right gear in an unfamiliar vehicle. Obviously not a panic but it doesn’t feel right going from top speed to very slow using only brakes and only then putting down clutch to change gear to the right one.
I am sure I will get to grips with it for the test but as soon as the test is over I will probably end up going back to what feels safer and more natural. That being a combination of engine and brakes.
That being said I am a newbie at this and will happily be corrected if my view is wrong.
Your view is not wrong. Keep thinking that way. I am really surprised to hear of this method being taught in LGV’s.
I know car instructors do use it.
Can I ask if the company you did the assessment on are qualified in any way? Was the person doing the assessment an LGV driver?
Anyway just to let you know you can drive using a combination of gears and brakes on your test as long as you are doing it correctly.
Gillberry:
albion1971:
Gillberry:
Carryfast , trainers teach you to pass a test so they are doing their job . How do you teach someone to deal with different situations and how to deal with them ? Maybe my instructors felt That telling me about the retarder and manual mode was sufficient for me but they actually show other trainees ?
On the newbie forum there a lot of trainers surely input from them regarding training today is what’s needed for a true answer .I can tell you the reason for that. You have enough to concentrate on without thinking about using a retarder.
If a candidate does use the retarder on a test it has to be used properly so most instructors will tell their students not to bother but will explain how it works and when it should be used.
I am sure you will back me up that there is an awful lot to think about going out on test after a few days intense training.Yes I can back you up on that but the question then is who teaches you ? How do you learn ?
I listened to and observed other drivers and then tried it in practice the same as the day when I have to drive a manual I will deal with it . There does seem to be those who think that newbie drivers are incapable of finding things out for themselves and as such are dangerous , so what do we do to stop the generalisation that all new drivers are no good ? Surely if someone does not have the ability to drive a hgv safely the instructors will pick this up at the teaining stage ?
It really depends on the area you live in and what types of further training is available but most OLD drivers that are telling you you are rubbish taught themselves and you can do the same but keep in mind the standard of some of the OLDER drivers! 
albion1971:
Gillberry:
albion1971:
Gillberry:
Carryfast , trainers teach you to pass a test so they are doing their job . How do you teach someone to deal with different situations and how to deal with them ? Maybe my instructors felt That telling me about the retarder and manual mode was sufficient for me but they actually show other trainees ?
On the newbie forum there a lot of trainers surely input from them regarding training today is what’s needed for a true answer .I can tell you the reason for that. You have enough to concentrate on without thinking about using a retarder.
If a candidate does use the retarder on a test it has to be used properly so most instructors will tell their students not to bother but will explain how it works and when it should be used.
I am sure you will back me up that there is an awful lot to think about going out on test after a few days intense training.Yes I can back you up on that but the question then is who teaches you ? How do you learn ?
I listened to and observed other drivers and then tried it in practice the same as the day when I have to drive a manual I will deal with it . There does seem to be those who think that newbie drivers are incapable of finding things out for themselves and as such are dangerous , so what do we do to stop the generalisation that all new drivers are no good ? Surely if someone does not have the ability to drive a hgv safely the instructors will pick this up at the teaining stage ?It really depends on the area you live in and what types of further training is available but most OLD drivers that are telling you you are rubbish taught themselves and you can do the same but keep in mind the standard of some of the OLDER drivers!
I am well aware of my own faults and learning skills 
as I am sure most are of their own before passing comment
We are all different and debate is useful to keep the mind active and to help the individual process the information before it becomes useful
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newmercman:
ROG:
There is absolutely no reason why in normal driving conditions that a driver of a fully loaded 44 tonne LGV cannot use the brakes for slow and gears for go method with any gearboxModern LGVs and virtually all other modern vehicles are designed to be driven this way
The latest auto boxes have also been designed to hold the current gear when slowing and to engage the gear to go when the accelerator is next pressed
What a load of complete and utter ■■■■■■■■!
There is a reason, a bloody good reason why gears to go, brakes to slow is wrong and it’s called brake fade.
It’s also bad driving, as you approach a junction or whatever, you should be downshifting so that when you can go you are in the correct gear instantly, not fumbling around looking for a gear.
Slowing down using the gearbox and engine brake will keep the foundation brakes cold and therefore at their best in terms of braking performance, the higher rpms will also have the compressor working meaning it will be resupplying the air tanks with maximum pressure, meaning you have maximum braking force available when needed.
It’s also much more economical as you will back off the throttle earlier and gently slow down, which also puts the load at less risk of shifting and puts less stress on any load securement you have and it doesn’t wear out linings/drums or pads/discs so quickly.
Anybody advocating the gears to go, brakes to slow method is talking out of their arse.
Mind you they do say that those that can, do and those that can’t, teach.
Bang on, +1
Gromett:
I have just had a short assessment drive before going in for my C.This is the hardest bit for me so far. I am being told to only use brakes for slowing and it feels unnatural. Previously I have used a balanced approach using both engine and brakes to slow down aiming to be in the right gear for example at a roundabout.
Using just the the brakes means a last minute “panic” to pick the right gear in an unfamiliar vehicle. Obviously not a panic but it doesn’t feel right going from top speed to very slow using only brakes and only then putting down clutch to change gear to the right one.
I am sure I will get to grips with it for the test but as soon as the test is over I will probably end up going back to what feels safer and more natural. That being a combination of engine and brakes.
That being said I am a newbie at this and will happily be corrected if my view is wrong.
A sensible approach, you obviously feel that even though the brakes to slow method will be necessary to gain the magic ticket, it isn’t practical to use it out on the road.
I don’t think anybody is blaming the trainers, they’re playing to the rules, why would they invest tens, maybe hundreds of thousands in a fleet of rigids for cat C and tractor units and trailers for cat C+E when a rigid/drawbar set up meet the required standards?
However they’re not training people how to drive a lorry, but simply training them to pass a test. That’s the way it’s always been, it certainly was when I took my class one back in the 80s. I passed my test in a Ford D series with a 32ft single axle flat trailer, the next day I was out in a brand new hired F10 with a triaxle flat loaded with 24tons of Gypsum.
Nothing I had learned during my few days of lessons had prepared me for my job of lorry driver. Although I had been driving artics for the previous 3yrs, so I wasn’t as wet behind the ears as most 21yr olds.
I think the same goes for any trade though, from brickies to brain surgeons, theory and practice are totally different, the training and testing only prove that you are capable of becoming a brickie, brain surgeon or lorry driver, you only start learning how to do the job when you actually start doing it.