Dipper_Dave:
Am I the only one reading this imagining two old duffers in a retirement home arguing before nurse brings the meds round.
Anyway sure you pair know what your on about which looks to me like you agree with each other but are going round the houses a bit to get there.
To settle what the current philosophy is on gears to go and luck to slow perhaps asking what our resident spammers on the newbies section think may work… 
If it helps when I select engine retardation on my current steed whilst slowing down for say a junction the vehicle agrees with gears to slow and performs downshifts to optimise engine retardation. Course some manual intervention is required on steeper gradients but she soon gets to grips with whats going on.
P.S. Nice to read you had a good time in Oz Albion and welcome back, have you any pictures of your adventures downunder.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. There are occasions we need more deceleration and would therefore need to downchange giving more engine/exhaust braking rather than service brakes (or to assist the service brakes) and there are times we don’t want to lose a lot of speed and just foot off the throttle will be enough with perhaps a bit of adjustment with the brake pedal.
I don’t know any instructors teaching the way Commercial Motor have suggested and I think they got their idea for the article from comments on other threads on this forum and a conversation they supposedly had with an out of date SAFED instructor. This all stems from the incident in Bath.
I think we also have to consider that modern vehicles do require different driving techniques and in a lot of cases they will do the downshift and increase revs to increase the effectiveness of engine/exhaust braking based on the driver pressing the brake pedal. Of course there are times we as the driver know better and can over rule the auto gearbox and tell it what we want it to do.
I often leave it to the vehicle - at other times I take over and tell the gearbox what to do.
Some of you will have experienced the Volvo I-Roll (other manufacturers are available) which is equivalent to selecting neutral and gives no engine braking. Used in the wrong place it can be dangerous. A learner would be unlikely to use such a system - certainly not during the test. When they first come across it in the real world it could be lethal if they haven’t been told about it. This comes down to the employers duty of care to make sure the driver is trained and proficient in the use of each vehicle.
A Cat C or CE does not mean you know how to drive every brand or variation of vehicle.
shep532:
I think we also have to consider that modern vehicles do require different driving techniques and in a lot of cases they will do the downshift and increase revs to increase the effectiveness of engine/exhaust braking based on the driver pressing the brake pedal. Of course there are times we as the driver know better and can over rule the auto gearbox and tell it what we want it to do.
I often leave it to the vehicle - at other times I take over and tell the gearbox what to do.
Some of you will have experienced the Volvo I-Roll (other manufacturers are available) which is equivalent to selecting neutral and gives no engine braking. Used in the wrong place it can be dangerous. A learner would be unlikely to use such a system - certainly not during the test. When they first come across it in the real world it could be lethal if they haven’t been told about it. This comes down to the employers duty of care to make sure the driver is trained and proficient in the use of each vehicle.
A Cat C or CE does not mean you know how to drive every brand or variation of vehicle.
Volvo I-roll will only stay in natural over a preset speed above your cruise speed, once over that it will go into gear and start engine braking. It will also go immediately into gear if you touch brakes or VEB.
But I do agree many companies have these new trucks with their many systems, but fail to provide training or a familiarization for the drivers. So most learn from other drivers, which as we know can have many pit falls or try and learn while driving the truck.
My truck will go down the gears if I use the engine brake but will stay in gear if I use the foot brake.
On another note, can anybody see the correlation between this slamming the brakes on to stop method, well it should be brakes to slow (but in the real world we get drivers trying to out brake each other) and the tightening (pardon the pun) legislation on load securement?
Personally I will continue to use the engine brake/downshifting to slow method. Not only is it better for the load on the back (which is the whole point of a lorry in the first place) but it is much more mechanically sympathetic, all that heat and stress on the wheel ends from harsh braking has to have an effect on components and tyre life.
From what I’ve read on the newbie and UK forums, the current training is a joke, they put new drivers in a little 12t puddle jumper with a caravan type drawbar trailer and “teach” them how to push a couple of pedals and turn the steering wheel to get themselves around the block a few times.
newmercman:
Personally I will continue to use the engine brake/downshifting to slow method. Not only is it better for the load on the back (which is the whole point of a lorry in the first place) but it is much more mechanically sympathetic, all that heat and stress on the wheel ends from harsh braking has to have an effect on components and tyre life.
From what I’ve read on the newbie and UK forums, the current training is a joke, they put new drivers in a little 12t puddle jumper with a caravan type drawbar trailer and “teach” them how to push a couple of pedals and turn the steering wheel to get themselves around the block a few times.
+1
I too will continue to use gears (yes even on an auto) and engine braking to reduce speed, even at times when its not neccesary, I still use the brake pedal but sometimes its more to warn other motorists that I am slowing down than for any real speed reduction.
Don’t get me wrong theres times its purely brakes only as there isn’t enough time to forward plan or on an unfamiliar stretch of road where my wits are needed for looking for a delivery point.
Those that grip onto technological improvements as a safety blanket may find they come unstuck when they pick up a (shock horror) poorly maintained trailer or a trailer that has been used by another driver with the same ‘brakes too slow’ mantra.
‘Save your brakes and they will save you…’
Edit: I also have to embrace new technology and adapt to it , however 10 ton of unit will always need some thought at times to hold back 34 tonne of trailer (weights approx).
In my car I use the brakes to stop but when I’m in my truck I will always use the exhaust brake. By using that I can control my speed so if I need to move lanes or the approaching traffics lights turn green I can gun it again. On manuals though I was very naughty. Clutch in, ride the brakes.
Reassuring just how many drivers here agree the BTSGTG training is unfit for purpose, coupled with not wishing to abuse their vehicles, let alone the aim of keeping the brakes cool in case they’re really needed.
Be interesting to hear from some OD’s or small hauliers, or even a proper old school transport manager if any survived, which type of driver they want in their vehicles.
If I ever get any more lorries, (which is doubtful as decent drivers are as rare as rocking horse ■■■) I would have no problem mentoring a young lad and teaching him how it’s done.
A newbie wouldn’t have any preconceptions, no bad habits and wouldn’t be resistant to embracing the technology and getting the best out of it.
They would have to be at least 2nd generation lorry driver, it’s one thing wanting to drive a lorry, but unless you’re used to the lifestyle that accompanies it, you will be in for a bit of a culture shock.
I certainly wouldn’t take on anybody without a thorough test of their abilities.
In the past when I ran a small fleet I found that getting one good driver led to his mates joining soon after, so it wasn’t a problem, however times have changed and a different approach is necessary.
A wise man once said to me, it’s not how much it costs to train your drivers, it’s how much it costs not to train them. This is especially true now, with ever more complicated lorries and pitiful training from the driving schools and the amount of here’s the keys agency positions out there.
Radar19:
My truck will go down the gears if I use the engine brake but will stay in gear if I use the foot brake.
Yep mine too, its almost like the manufacturers have designed the vehicles to maximise engine retardation when the engine / exhaust brake is selected.
90% of the time with a partial load or even full load brakes to slow will work, but on a steep gradient or if the trailer brakes are suspect or even if the load is 20 tonne of liquid (like mine the other day, bloody nightmare it was) then a more advanced technique is needed.
Yes all the current crop of trainers have to do is get drivers through a test which is fine, but I would imagine that some discussion of real world vehicle speed reduction takes place. Otherwise the driver will learn the hard way and brake fade incidents are rare but a novice driver realising he is overheating the brakes and not having the tools in his toolbox to cope are a recipe for disaster.
Sure we can put our faith in expert police trainers etc but these where the same buggers I left ditched in my youth when joyriding so excuse me for not having total faith in their vehicle handling skills…
Quick Edit: The above sentence may or may not be true, I have had a drink
Over the last 2 weeks or so I have had an excellent introduction to the need to ’ control my braking '. The difference between driving my artic loaded and unloaded is unreal. My last 12 months on class 2 has helped,but the forces involved in a fully laden 44 tonner are a world away!! The vehicles I am lucky to drive are all new or maybe 2 or 3 years old and the engine braking seems to be to me really controllable if I put the lever down 1 or 2 stages. However the ’ final stage ’ of the retarder seems to make the auto box ’ lurch ’ down a couple of gears. I have found that as knowledgable drivers on here have said,that a combination of braking is the most effective. The manual 3 over 3 Scania I drive has a button so that the exhaust brake works in conjunction with the foot brake (like some Iveco’s ive driven ) and I find that pretty good too.
I am really glad that I passed my test in a full size manual artic. I am sure that it has helped me,although braking in my lessons with a clamped down and secure part-load is nothing like the ’ real world '.
Crazy to put someone in an auto 12tonner towing a burger van and let them loose in the above mentioned IMO.
Sorry to bore you experienced folks,im just trying to help out people in my position who are ’ half noobs '.
eagerbeaver:
Over the last 2 weeks or so I have had an excellent introduction to the need to ’ control my braking '. The difference between driving my artic loaded and unloaded is unreal. My last 12 months on class 2 has helped,but the forces involved in a fully laden 44 tonner are a world away!! The vehicles I am lucky to drive are all new or maybe 2 or 3 years old and the engine braking seems to be to me really controllable if I put the lever down 1 or 2 stages. However the ’ final stage ’ of the retarder seems to make the auto box ’ lurch ’ down a couple of gears. I have found that as knowledgable drivers on here have said,that a combination of braking is the most effective. The manual 3 over 3 Scania I drive has a button so that the exhaust brake works in conjunction with the foot brake (like some Iveco’s ive driven ) and I find that pretty good too.
I am really glad that I passed my test in a full size manual artic. I am sure that it has helped me,although braking in my lessons with a clamped down and secure part-load is nothing like the ’ real world '.
Crazy to put someone in an auto 12tonner towing a burger van and let them loose in the above mentioned IMO.
Sorry to bore you experienced folks,im just trying to help out people in my position who are ’ half noobs '.
I was told by an old timer to creep towards junctions so you minimised the need to use the foot brake. I try and aim to be under 30mph before I use the foot brake.