Armagedon:
Carryfast I am of the age that remembers that brakes are what you used at the end of the day/week,and never to rely on them except when you had
virtually stopped. But a Safed instructor visited my buddy’s company and his top driver went out with him ,the company driver stopped the drive, took
over and drove the rig back to the yard. End off.
Which then raises the question,that assuming there might be such a catastrophic flaw in the official establishment driver training regime,then that same establishment would obviously be in a conflict of interest situation,in possibly wanting to shift the blame,in the case of over stressed brakes,onto operators and vehicle condition if at all possible.
Then that establishment would then roll out that tired old phrase…‘lessons will be learned’…till the next catastrophe but I have for a long time
wanted more input from US/THOSE who are actually in this industry of ours on so many different aspects.
Armagedon:
Then that establishment would then roll out that tired old phrase…‘lessons will be learned’…till the next catastrophe but I have for a long time
wanted more input from US/THOSE who are actually in this industry of ours on so many different aspects.
Ironically in this case the level of stupidity in question might have originated as a cost cutting exercise from within the industry itself,on the erroneous premise that it is cheaper to put more stress on brakes in order to remove it from engines and drivelines.Let alone the idiotic idea of confusing engine speed at zero load on the over run with fuel consumption.
The PC green leaning lot in the establishment then ran with it on the basis that it must be better for heavy trucks to be running silently up to roundabouts and junctions and down hills.Rather than the idea of a howling engine and compulsory fitment of a jake brake doing their job of saving brakes thereby saving lives.
Anyone that goes along with this brakes to slow, gear to go crap, needs their head read. I haven’t been near the Toowoomba range for a good few years now, but it was always, come to a crawl at the top, pick a low gear and use jake / exhaust brake and know where the sand trap was.
How can idiots like mc thackeray come on here and say what he says and expect to be taken seriously ? As I said earlier, this poor young bloke’s had a right old baptism of fire; I just hope he gets over it.
peterm:
Anyone that goes along with this brakes to slow, gear to go crap, needs their head read.
It really is time that the whole subject was brought into the open and anyone involved in the agenda needs to be removed from the industry and then get the the idea of the use of gears and engine braking being seen as the essential part of a truck’s braking system that they always were.
Then you could expect that our trade press would lead on these safety issues,CM,T&D,Trucking but I doubt we would want to hold our breath for
that to happen and unless there was a big bung for another jolly I doubt the trade associations would be interested.But I expect Gas Gas is reading this…
‘come on lad,do your stuff,make a name for yourself’.
mc thackeray:
And I all ready told you wack it into low gear and the engine will brake it simple as that
why do you think they used to have gear changing exersises on driving tests
we have rigid vehicles that are FULLY AUTO no flappy paddle so its all down to exhaust and foot break so unfortunately “Wack It In To Low Gear” as you say ain’t possible is it
mc thackeray:
And I all ready told you wack it into low gear and the engine will brake it simple as that
why do you think they used to have gear changing exersises on driving tests
Armagedon:
Reading the comments posted I am surprised no one has mentioned that the removal of asbestos from brake linings has made modern brake linings
less efficient than what we had years ago and discussing this incident with a buddy he tells me the brake shoes on a Scania are far smaller than
what was fitted on the Foden.This young lad,one of those we need desperately in this industry has had a hell of an experience and of course you
think of those who lost their life.But we all go out tomorrow and carry on,let’s maybe just try and do it a bit better,be careful.
No one knows what happened in this case yet and I’m just really hoping that the unfortunate driver hasn’t been catastrophically let down by his driver training.
On the basis of a doctrine that institutionally,instinctively,instills the idea of brakes to slow gears to go I’ve got my doubts in that regard.
One thing is sure a heavy book is going to have to be thrown at someone for this. What I do hope is that if it isn’t glaringly obvious dangerous driving or maintenance deficiencies that serious questions are asked about the suitability of young drivers and training.
I do worry with the standard of the driver’s driving. There is a reason insurers aren’t keen on young drivers. Someone on here took one on and he had a minor accident and failed to stop, he was given the benefit of the doubt, then the next thing he did was put the wagon on its side.
Armagedon:
Reading the comments posted I am surprised no one has mentioned that the removal of asbestos from brake linings has made modern brake linings
less efficient than what we had years ago and discussing this incident with a buddy he tells me the brake shoes on a Scania are far smaller than
what was fitted on the Foden.This young lad,one of those we need desperately in this industry has had a hell of an experience and of course you
think of those who lost their life.But we all go out tomorrow and carry on,let’s maybe just try and do it a bit better,be careful.
No one knows what happened in this case yet and I’m just really hoping that the unfortunate driver hasn’t been catastrophically let down by his driver training.
On the basis of a doctrine that institutionally,instinctively,instills the idea of brakes to slow gears to go I’ve got my doubts in that regard.
One thing is sure a heavy book is going to have to be thrown at someone for this. What I do hope is that if it isn’t glaringly obvious dangerous driving or maintenance deficiencies that serious questions are asked about the suitability of young drivers and training.
I do worry with the standard of the driver’s driving. There is a reason insurers aren’t keen on young drivers. Someone on here took one on and he had a minor accident and failed to stop, he was given the benefit of the doubt, then the next thing he did was put the wagon on its side.
I wish people would get over this young driver prejudice. There are plenty of young drivers safely driving around but you dont hear about it because there are no incidents - I was one of them.
Yes XFMatt had problems with a young driver which was arhuably caused by inexperience but lets not forget that Matt was with him for 3 days and said the driving in that time was OK. The standard of driving isn’t the problem, it’s the mindset. This is something that can apply to people of ANY age.
Armagedon:
Reading the comments posted I am surprised no one has mentioned that the removal of asbestos from brake linings has made modern brake linings
less efficient than what we had years ago and discussing this incident with a buddy he tells me the brake shoes on a Scania are far smaller than
what was fitted on the Foden.This young lad,one of those we need desperately in this industry has had a hell of an experience and of course you
think of those who lost their life.But we all go out tomorrow and carry on,let’s maybe just try and do it a bit better,be careful.
No one knows what happened in this case yet and I’m just really hoping that the unfortunate driver hasn’t been catastrophically let down by his driver training.
On the basis of a doctrine that institutionally,instinctively,instills the idea of brakes to slow gears to go I’ve got my doubts in that regard.
One thing is sure a heavy book is going to have to be thrown at someone for this. What I do hope is that if it isn’t glaringly obvious dangerous driving or maintenance deficiencies that serious questions are asked about the suitability of young drivers and training.
I do worry with the standard of the driver’s driving. There is a reason insurers aren’t keen on young drivers. Someone on here took one on and he had a minor accident and failed to stop, he was given the benefit of the doubt, then the next thing he did was put the wagon on its side.
I wish people would get over this young driver prejudice. There are plenty of young drivers safely driving around but you dont hear about it because there are no incidents - I was one of them.
Yes XFMatt had problems with a young driver which was arhuably caused by inexperience but lets not forget that Matt was with him for 3 days and said the driving in that time was OK. The standard of driving isn’t the problem, it’s the mindset. This is something that can apply to people of ANY age.
You just don’t get fifty year olds racing their Saxo round the Tesco’s car park though, do you?
It’s an unfortunate situation but the safety of the public should not be put at risk unnecessarily to avoid upsetting a few young people.
I have driven down this hill, many, many times in an 18 tonner fully laden, which is actually one ton per braked axle more than an 8 legger. Now mostly I think it was in a 6 speed so I would guess I would have been in at most 3rd and would have had my foot glued to the exhaust brake on the floor. As I said in a previous post it does give the brakes a serious workout but, I’m struggling to get to the point, and I know people have posted that the drums on this truck aren’t the best, where even without the low gear and exhaust brake knowledge/experience, you’ve got cooked brakes - obviously this is assuming there was no maintenance issue with the brakes.
So if they were already too hot from late braking, and other poor driving beforehand, can the whole blame be laid on the training? (which we all agree has elements that are either inadequate or seriously flawed)
I know it would be less likely (but not actually impossible) to cook the brakes but, if this accident had played out with a 19 year old in their Saxo, would anyone be so quick to blame the training?
Armagedon:
Then you could expect that our trade press would lead on these safety issues,CM,T&D,Trucking but I doubt we would want to hold our breath for
that to happen and unless there was a big bung for another jolly I doubt the trade associations would be interested.But I expect Gas Gas is reading this…
‘come on lad,do your stuff,make a name for yourself’.
Three days ago I emailed the former DSA and VOSA press offices the following questions:
Good morning,
Can you tell me if the following topics are covered in the LGV driving test: either theory or practical, including initial DCPC acquisition:
Selection of appropriate gears for the gradient ahead
The use of engine/exhaust brakes and/or retarders and other secondary braking systems
The impact of load on the efficiency of vehicle foundation brakes when travelling down steep hills while fully laden.
Appropriate action to take in the event of foundation brake failure
Emergency stops
No answer as yet…
What worries me is that the new DVSA combines responsibilities for accident investigations and driving test standards.
The off-highway ‘controlled stop’ element of the truck driving test was, I understand, abandoned some years ago. Candidates now just have to stop by the side of the road.
Be assured that I will not let this issue slip away…and I’m going to try and do a bit more than get a story into the trade press. I have a horrible feeling that a 19-year-old kid will get hung out to dry by the establishment for just doing what he’s been taught to do.
It is not just the initial driver training that is flawed, it is the dominance in ‘safe driving’ of fuel saving measures and the attitude of the public to being behind a slower moving vehicle allied to what may be an over-concern about others’ rate of progress.
Fuel saving seems to have taken over. We have the gears to go brakes to stop issue, but also roll in neutral downhill at almost 60 mph, and almost an obsession with cruise control from these theorists. Moving the foot from accelerator to brake pedal is instinctive, moving it from somewhere else on the floor is not. Lifting off or easing the throttle is the same. I seriously wonder quite how many of the motorway rear end collisions have some element of blame that can be attached to cruise control.
The year before last I was asked to drive on one of these enthusiasts bus running days. The route involved leaving Eastbourne town centre and the sea front route climbing Beachy Head, continuing to Birling Gap and then returning by the main A 259. This in a fully loaded, Vacuum-braked, 50+ year old vehicle, with 6 speed constant mesh gears. Many will know just how long and steep this entire route is, particularly the descent into Eastbourne. This required observing strictly the ‘low gear now’ signs (3rd I think) in fact slightly before even they were reached and a descent, at what was I guess now about 15 mph, with short periods of fairly heavy braking to keep engine revs under control and to bring speed back to below 15 mph. This was clearly not popular with following traffic, some of which roared by with horn blaring, which perhaps illustrates the general misunderstanding about the ability to stop. However although the brakes smelt slightly, there was always the feeling back through the pedal and from he rate of slowing that there was plenty left to stop if needed.
cav551:
It is not just the initial driver training that is flawed, it is the dominance in ‘safe driving’ of fuel saving measures and the attitude of the public to being behind a slower moving vehicle allied to what may be an over-concern about others’ rate of progress.
Fuel saving seems to have taken over. We have the gears to go brakes to stop issue, but also roll in neutral downhill at almost 60 mph, and almost an obsession with cruise control from these theorists. Moving the foot from accelerator to brake pedal is instinctive, moving it from somewhere else on the floor is not. Lifting off or easing the throttle is the same. I seriously wonder quite how many of the motorway rear end collisions have some element of blame that can be attached to cruise control.
The year before last I was asked to drive on one of these enthusiasts bus running days. The route involved leaving Eastbourne town centre and the sea front route climbing Beachy Head, continuing to Birling Gap and then returning by the main A 259. This in a fully loaded, Vacuum-braked, 50+ year old vehicle, with 6 speed constant mesh gears. Many will know just how long and steep this entire route is, particularly the descent into Eastbourne. This required observing strictly the ‘low gear now’ signs (3rd I think) in fact slightly before even they were reached and a descent, at what was I guess now about 15 mph, with short periods of fairly heavy braking to keep engine revs under control and to bring speed back to below 15 mph. This was clearly not popular with following traffic, some of which roared by with horn blaring, which perhaps illustrates the general misunderstanding about the ability to stop. However although the brakes smelt slightly, there was always the feeling back through the pedal and from he rate of slowing that there was plenty left to stop if needed.
Thats quite a route to test brakes. Spent many years driving 712’s and 713’s before they changed them into the 12’s but being as I was only 19/20 at the time, some posters here think I shouldn’t have been given the opportunity.
Today’s paper suggests possible overloading is being investigated. Also, the driver passed his test just 5 days ago.
(The truck was 11 years old, had been resprayed red from blue but DVLA not told of the colour change.)
I saw that report about the investigation into overloading.
I wouldn’t read anything into it.
Yes, they will investigate overloading after a multifatality.
They will also be looking at the tacho, the brakes, the maintenance and inspection records and everything else they can think of. They will be all over the operator’s yard, checking the other vehicles and all the mechanical and tacho records they can find. The investigation will be having the same resources thrown at it as if it was a murder inquiry…if not more.
And to be fair to the quarry companies, I think most of them will not let an overloaded truck off the site.
It says he passed his c+e test 5 days before. Presumably he has held C for at least a few days longer, if not months.
Also says he is a farmers son, so possibly quite used to driving large vehicles.
Buckstones:
had been resprayed red from blue but DVLA not told of the colour change.)
The very fact that that snippet has been reported sets alarm bells ringing in my head, not the trivial matter of not reporting a colour change, rather it tells me that the reporting is already going down a certain track and starting to “lead” opinion in a certain direction. The danger being that a witch hunt is launched rather than a dispassionate and proper investigation.
