truckman020:
Read in the paper today that the driver in the bath crash is 19 yrs old,surely that can’t be right,I know the law allows young people to drive hgvs now but at 19 he would not have the experience to drive a 30 tonne tipper surely
To be honest this is nothing new …you could in time gone by been under the young drivers scheme at 18 even in the army they’re driving heavy kit at 18/19 so there’s only one way in getting experience and that’s by doing the job.
No different to a 30 yr old that’s never really driven anything above a car doing cat C then a week later doing C+E.
The only real way to learn is by doing the job pointless saying you have to have a cat B for 5 yrs the a cat C for 5 yrs then you can go for a cat C+E it would be the perfect way but it’ll never happen
have to agree,shame about the loss of life though,quite sad
Looking at some photos of the lorry (the reg plate is visible in some ), it’s an old 4 series (or the type available in the late ‘90s/early 2000s) ex Chris Miller Transport of Lechlade. I’ve encountered this vehicle in Hills’ pit at Shorncote, not driven by a 19 year old but the wagon looked sound enough up close. Not neglected, had air horns, flags in cab etc and I’ve never seen it being driven erratically.
truckman020:
Read in the paper today that the driver in the bath crash is 19 yrs old,surely that can’t be right,I know the law allows young people to drive hgvs now but at 19 he would not have the experience to drive a 30 tonne tipper surely
The Young Driver Scheme
The Young LGV Driver Scheme is managed by the Road Haulage & Distribution Training Council on behalf of the Department for Transport.
Young drivers do a real and productive job whilst receiving first class training towards LGV licence acquisition and industry specific, nationally recognised qualifications.
The Scheme provides the opportunity for a young person to obtain a full Category C driving licence at the age of 18 rather than 21 and a Category C+E licence before his or her 21st birthday.
What’s involved?
Registered young drivers follow a structured training programme leading to a Level 2 Scottish / National Vocational Qualification (S/NVQ) in either “Driving Goods Vehicles” or "Transporting Goods by Road ". In addition their LGV driving skills are regularly assessed.
Stages
Young person recruited / selected by company Registered on to the Scheme Training Plan agreed and Induction training given
Pre-driving units of S/NVQ achieved Application (through RHDTC) for
provisional Category C licence
Driver Training
Pass test and gain licence
Receive four satisfactory driving assessments during first six months after taking LGV test Complete S/NVQ
YDS completion certificate issued after stages 1-5 successfully completed
(Optional) Driver training for Category C+E licence and C+E test passed
(This must be at least 6 months after passing ‘C’ test)
Funding
Employers are able to access funding through the local Learning & Skills Council if the trainee is registered on a Foundation Modern Apprenticeship. This requires the addition of the Key Skills of communication, application of number and information technology to the training programme. For more details on how to access funding, contact your local Approved Training Organisation. (List available from the RHDTC).
Scheme features
New trainees must be between their 16th and 21st birthdays and have no more than 3 penalty points on their licence
All trainees must be employed by a company registered with the RHDTC
All trainees must be registered with an Approved Training Organisation
(ATO) - a list is available from the RHDTC
A training plan will be agreed and monitored by the employer, trainee and the Approved Training Organisation
Induction and Health and Safety training will form a central requirement of the scheme.
Assessment of trainees’ skills will largely be done at work but there
will be a requirement to undertake some “off the job” training
A trainee can begin Category C+E driver training 6 months after passing
their Category C test as long as they have completed both the S/NVQ and
driving assessments
Young drivers will automatically lose their Category C or C+E licence
entitlement if they accrue more than 3 penalty points on their licence
If a young driver ceases to be employed by a registered employer while
on the Scheme they will automatically lose their entitlement to drive
Category C or C+E vehicles
Trainees must be properly monitored, supervised and supported
throughout the programme. This is primarily the employers
responsibility, however, the ATO is accountable to the RHDTC who may
undertake periodic checks to ensure that the rules of the scheme are
adhered to
Information provided by RHDTC.
obviously I am behind with the times,i thought they got rid of that scheme some years ago
no need for it any more as you can take your test at 18 now
Moose:
just another thought is that LGV learner drivers I’ve spoken to say that these days they are trained to rely to much on the brakes, ie running up to a roundabout in a high gear slowing only on the brakes
I was “corrected” during a SAFED drive because I used gears and Jake Brake instead of brake pedal. I pointed out that that was the way Dad had taught me, and that I could drop down Fish Hill at Broadway fully loaded, barely touching the brake pedal.
Clearly I was wrong, and that I should’ve gone down there with red hot brake drums.
Was told the same thing on a SAFED drive, also “brakes are cheaper than fuel” I told him you drive your way I’ll drive mine so FRO,BTW still got a good report so maybe the bellend learned something that day
ITV News can reveal the name of the haulage company being investigated by police over the deaths of four people who were struck by a lorry in Bath.
Grittenham Haulage Ltd based in Wiltshire refused to comment to us today when asked about the role of its truck in the tragedy.
We understand the company’s owners have spent the day in talks with their solicitors at their haulage yard.
The firm is licensed to use five vehicles and is run by a man named Matthew Gordon. We were told by a family member that he had “nothing to say”.
ITV News has also learned today that the police have asked the Driving & Vehicle Standards Agency to “assist with their investigation” and when we asked the DVSA specifically about Grittenham Haulage Ltd they said “while this is on-going we are unable to comment further”.
The Traffic Commissioner confirmed to ITV News that Grittenham Haulage holds an operators licence but they say they are “unable to comment on individual cases, in the interests of justice”.
Four people died when the lorry careered down Landsdowne Lane on Monday afternoon. Four-year-old Mitzi Rosanna Steady was the youngest victim.
Taxi driver, Stephen Vaughan was killed along with Phil Allen and an as yet unnamed 59 year old man when the truck crushed their car.
Police have confirmed that inquires are ongoing and are at an early stage. No arrests have been made.
Moose:
just another thought is that LGV learner drivers I’ve spoken to say that these days they are trained to rely to much on the brakes, ie running up to a roundabout in a high gear slowing only on the brakes
I was “corrected” during a SAFED drive because I used gears and Jake Brake instead of brake pedal. I pointed out that that was the way Dad had taught me, and that I could drop down Fish Hill at Broadway fully loaded, barely touching the brake pedal.
Clearly I was wrong, and that I should’ve gone down there with red hot brake drums.
Was told the same thing on a SAFED drive, also “brakes are cheaper than fuel” I told him you drive your way I’ll drive mine so FRO,BTW still got a good report so maybe the bellend learned something that day
You should have asked the idiot to explain how an engine is using much,if any,fuel at zero load on the over run regardless of engine speed.Unfortunately I don’t think there’s any chance of the brakes to slow gears to go idiots having the intelligence to be able to learn anything.
GasGas:
ITV News can reveal the name of the haulage company being investigated by police over the deaths of four people who were struck by a lorry in Bath.
Grittenham Haulage Ltd based in Wiltshire refused to comment to us today when asked about the role of its truck in the tragedy.
We understand the company’s owners have spent the day in talks with their solicitors at their haulage yard.
The firm is licensed to use five vehicles and is run by a man named Matthew Gordon. We were told by a family member that he had “nothing to say”.
ITV News has also learned today that the police have asked the Driving & Vehicle Standards Agency to “assist with their investigation” and when we asked the DVSA specifically about Grittenham Haulage Ltd they said “while this is on-going we are unable to comment further”.
The Traffic Commissioner confirmed to ITV News that Grittenham Haulage holds an operators licence but they say they are “unable to comment on individual cases, in the interests of justice”.
Four people died when the lorry careered down Landsdowne Lane on Monday afternoon. Four-year-old Mitzi Rosanna Steady was the youngest victim.
Taxi driver, Stephen Vaughan was killed along with Phil Allen and an as yet unnamed 59 year old man when the truck crushed their car.
Police have confirmed that inquires are ongoing and are at an early stage. No arrests have been made.
Think they should have at least acknowledged their vehicle was involved, given condolences and said they can’t comment any further.
If it does turn out to be maintenance failings the spotlight ought to fall on the DVSA also as they would constantly be passing the weighbridge and checkpoint at junction 18 of the M4.
As proved by the forces for decades at well over that weight what’s the problem in that.While age obviously isn’t really relevant anyway in the case of an issue which can realistically only be the result of catastrophic mechanical failure or that of the driver training regime.
Guess it will be a long time before any findings come out so all I’ll say is I think ALL the DSA training syllabuses/tests need reviewed and improved, what SAFED (should that be FED?) teaches is often at odds with what advanced drivers are taught and what experienced drivers know from time in the real world. Perhaps manufacturers need to revisit the assumptions with regard to design and programming.
I think the pursuit of fuel efficiency almost to the exclusion of everything else may have compromised safety. The eco-roll on on the Actros is a case in point.
Carryfast:
Assuming it was a cooked brakes scenario any form of brake actuation,low gear and exhaust brake will do nothing.Except maybe the miraculous chance that it over revs the engine to the point where it blows up in a way which locks up the drives.
what a load of crap!
Feel free to explain how you’re going to slow stop a 32 tonne runaway wagon rolling down a steep hill with no brakes in the form of no working drums/shoes.
em low gear
skid out of control but not blow the engine up
Carryfast:
Assuming it was a cooked brakes scenario any form of brake actuation,low gear and exhaust brake will do nothing.Except maybe the miraculous chance that it over revs the engine to the point where it blows up in a way which locks up the drives.
what a load of crap!
Feel free to explain how you’re going to slow stop a 32 tonne runaway wagon rolling down a steep hill with no brakes in the form of no working drums/shoes.
em low gear
skid out of control but not blow the engine up
Are you suggesting the idea of declutching it and then letting the clutch back in against an idling engine and hoping that will lock the drives up.
Here’s a clue you won’t get a loaded 8 wheeler tipper down that hill using just engine braking alone.Nor if anyone tried to get it down it relying too much on the brakes without ‘also’ using sufficient engine braking,especially if they’ve started the descent at the wrong speed in the wrong gear.Nor would the inevitable result of trying either be sorted out in the same way as a Lotus Cortina with severe brake fade on a race circuit might be.In which case what actually happened was about as close as the definition of a runaway truck on a steep hill gets.
As for the park brake assuming it was cooked or faulty brakes that would have done absolutely nothing just like all the other actuation systems.Because it doesn’t matter how many different ways you try to apply the same cooked or worn out/not working shoes against the same drums.
Carryfast:
Feel free to explain how you’re going to slow stop a 32 tonne runaway wagon rolling down a steep hill with no brakes in the form of no working drums/shoes.
em low gear
skid out of control but not blow the engine up
[/quote]
Are you suggesting the idea of declutching it and then letting the clutch back in against an idling engine and hoping that will lock the drives up.
Here’s a clue you won’t get a loaded 8 wheeler tipper down that hill using just engine braking alone.Nor if anyone tried to get it down it relying too much on the brakes without ‘also’ using sufficient engine braking,especially if they’ve started the descent at the wrong speed in the wrong gear.Nor would the inevitable result of trying either be sorted out in the same way as a Lotus Cortina with severe brake fade on a race circuit might be.In which case what actually happened was about as close as the definition of a runaway truck on a steep hill gets.
As for the park brake assuming it was cooked or faulty brakes that would have done absolutely nothing just like all the other actuation systems.Because it doesn’t matter how many different ways you try to apply the same cooked or worn out/not working shoes against the same drums.
[/quote]
I told you Carryfast he’s not a chuffin clue.
And I all ready told you wack it into low gear and the engine will brake it simple as that
why do you think they used to have gear changing exersises on driving tests
Reading the comments posted I am surprised no one has mentioned that the removal of asbestos from brake linings has made modern brake linings
less efficient than what we had years ago and discussing this incident with a buddy he tells me the brake shoes on a Scania are far smaller than
what was fitted on the Foden.This young lad,one of those we need desperately in this industry has had a hell of an experience and of course you
think of those who lost their life.But we all go out tomorrow and carry on,let’s maybe just try and do it a bit better,be careful.
mc thackeray:
And I all ready told you wack it into low gear and the engine will brake it simple as that
why do you think they used to have gear changing exersises on driving tests
Do you really have any clue as to how to drive a heavy truck down a steep hill.You’re ‘already’ supposed to be in the ‘low gear’ in question providing maximum possible engine braking from the start of the decent.However ‘that’ won’t provide sufficient retardation on its own to maintain the required speed let alone stop the wagon.Without braking in addition all it will do is send the engine speed to stratospheric levels even with the exhaust brake.While declutching a heavy truck while descending a steep hill,because the thing isn’t ‘already’ in the correct low gear,is bad enough with brakes,let alone without.
Now let me guess you released the brakes while in neutral and before engaging the clutch on your downhill restart exercise on the basis that you could catch the resulting runaway by just ‘whacking’ into low gear afterwards.
Which as I remember it is why the gearchange ‘exercise’ was carried out on the flat not with a loaded 8 wheeler tipper down a steep hill.
Having said all that it seems obvious that there ‘might’ be a ‘possible’ question in this case as to why the witnesses noticed the sound of the horn but no references to the also expected screaming engine.
Armagedon:
Reading the comments posted I am surprised no one has mentioned that the removal of asbestos from brake linings has made modern brake linings
less efficient than what we had years ago and discussing this incident with a buddy he tells me the brake shoes on a Scania are far smaller than
what was fitted on the Foden.This young lad,one of those we need desperately in this industry has had a hell of an experience and of course you
think of those who lost their life.But we all go out tomorrow and carry on,let’s maybe just try and do it a bit better,be careful.
No one knows what happened in this case yet and I’m just really hoping that the unfortunate driver hasn’t been catastrophically let down by his driver training.
On the basis of a doctrine that institutionally,instinctively,instills the idea of brakes to slow gears to go I’ve got my doubts in that regard.
Carryfast I am of the age that remembers that brakes are what you used at the end of the day/week,and never to rely on them except when you had
virtually stopped. But a Safed instructor visited my buddy’s company and his top driver went out with him ,the company driver stopped the drive, took
over and drove the rig back to the yard. End off.
Just wondering, that’s all.
