Four people dead in Bath after truck incident [Merged]

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
i was told the other day albeit 2nd hand, that volvo dynafleet mark down over use / too much exhaust braking, can anyone confirm? the drivers were advised to use the foot brake more.

i could only think it doesn’t like the blips when changing down to keep the engine up towards max revs

The Brits as usual have lost the plot. :unamused:

youtube.com/watch?v=AbtUdgbg0Nk

volvo’s swedish :laughing: :laughing:

i didn’t learn anything in your vid,that’s what i do, how my dad told me!

Hopefully he also said this is how to approach and slow down for a roundabout or junction etc on the flat.IE gears to slow brakes to stop.It’s then just a case of getting all the drivers who’ve been taught the DSA ( or Swedish :smiling_imp: ) way to unlearn all the bs they’ve been fed in that regard concerning brakes to slow gears to go.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ok_mG_alFiQ

Own Account Driver:
Apparently he overtook another lorry as avoiding action in the course of the runaway.

And that goes back to my original point
To me at this moment it looks like he is trying to find excuses for his wreckless actions

Own Account Driver:
According to the Daily Mail locals have been saying lorries were using the road as a rat run to deliver to the school.

The school is actually on that road. :unamused:

Well if its in the daily rag it must be true :unamused:
remember what the people that write and read the paper think about us all

Carryfast:
Assuming it was a cooked brakes scenario any form of brake actuation,low gear and exhaust brake will do nothing.Except maybe the miraculous chance that it over revs the engine to the point where it blows up in a way which locks up the drives.

what a load of crap!

mc thackeray:

Carryfast:
Assuming it was a cooked brakes scenario any form of brake actuation,low gear and exhaust brake will do nothing.Except maybe the miraculous chance that it over revs the engine to the point where it blows up in a way which locks up the drives.

what a load of crap!

Feel free to explain how you’re going to slow stop a 32 tonne runaway wagon rolling down a steep hill with no brakes in the form of no working drums/shoes. :unamused:

cav551:
Unless Scania have changed in the last two years since I last drove one, the exhaust brake is switched on or off by a rocker switch on the dash and operates automatically when the brake pedal is pressed. I suppose this accounts for the complaints heard about needing to give the pedal a good shove. It could also possibly lead an inexperienced-on-type driver to begin overheating the brakes, by actually applying the wheel brakes through pressing too hard, when believing that only the exhaust brake was being used.

Surely that idea would inevitably result in exactly that situation assuming any driver wasn’t aware that although the exhaust brake control is attached to the brake pedal it acts independently of the brakes.All the exhaust brakes which I remember were controlled by a seperate button on the floor.While I think pedal actuation,on those which used it,was usually attached to the accelerator on release not the brake. :confused:

At the moment we don’t seem to know if it was a local company/driver, though if the boss was driving in his car I guess they were not far out of the area so maybe should have known the route? Point I’m trying to make is that in this area where Dan Punchard, Moose and Myself live we have more than our share of long steep hills and have had many trucks runaway over the years, however they have mostly been strangers to the area (Lincs and Norfolk often) and they mis calculate the gradients and overheat their brakes resulting in a runaway. I also wondered if perhaps the truck was on its first run to the school, hence the gaffer being there?

I had brake loss myself years ago and had to get the truck into the bankside to stop it, that was caused by brakes that had been relined a month or two previously (but the badly worn brake drums were not renewed) and once they bedded in were well out of adjustment. Scary but no harm done. Had some that went over the cam as well and jammed on. After that I adjusted my own brakes between services!

Carryfast, Foden at one time had the exhaust brake working off of the first touch of the brake pedal (RR 265 engine) but they soon changed it to a seperate floor mounted button that got clogged with ■■■■ unless you cleaned around it daily. I used mine all the time, but some of our drivers never touched them and the button was always siezed and useless! :unamused:

Pete.

I noticed the media jumping on the side of the locals wanting a truck ban for years on the road of the crash.
Sky news lady said Baths infrastructure cant support large coaches and Lgv traffic and mentioned the tour coach that crashed on Brassknocker hill, that is marked as a 7.5 ton limit for trucks but coaches use it all the time for a shortcut.
Itv West and Points West both had a local councilor on , saying a Lgv ban and weight limit is needed and he predicted an accidentwaiting to happen years ago.
Width warning signs are 6 feet, the tipper was 8 feet wide.
A man who made tea for the driver and took him inside his house to consul him, said he was in a state of distress.
The tipper could have got all the way to the botto

Tragic loss of lives.

R I P to the lives lost in this terrible happening. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends.

Strange but true. Someone else’s post reminded me of this. The last lorry I drove was a Scania, drums all round. Every now and then, I’d be pulling away from a stand when the clutch pedal would pop up suddenly, the engine would stall and I’d have no air but the bloody thing would keep rolling, so I had to put the handbrake on. Once I’d put the handbrake on, I couldn’t release it until it had air. I’d heard no air escaping and the Scania mechanic couldn’t find a fault, even though he checked every time it happened. It certainly wasn’t any sort of clutch saver, I drive better than that.

As carryfast said, if your brakes are cooked, no amount of double, triple or anything else redundancies are going to stop you.

Whichever way you look at it, this poor young bugger’s had a baptism of fire.

As for joker83… well. Edited to apologise to joker83, I should have said mc thackeray regarding his stupid comment.

The old leyland roadtrains had the ignition key in such a position on the side of the steering column - that my knee used to bang against the dangling keys, even with the seat set back as far as possible, and fluffed up high as well.

There was one occasion when my leg knocked the keys, and switched the ignition keys off just as I was passing the detling show ground. I hadn’t noticed straight away, but when I put my foot on the brake to gently slow down approaching the top of the downhill run of detling hill, I found that not only were the brakes “hard” - but the power steering had gone as well! - “The servos were not working” was what I was told later.
I had to get it into neutral, let the revs die, then quickly turn the key to re-start the ignition. I’d already tried “Bumping” it - which didn’t work, and although I was slowing down from engine brake type effect (no ignition, in gear initially) I was still fast approaching the hill crest, and once over there I would have been a run-away with duff brakes AND no power steering. :open_mouth:

This would have been around Easter 1992. I’d only been driving C+E for a year at the time. The whole outcome of that “near miss” incident could have been a lot worse for everyone in my vicinity to be sure…

I’ve only been involved with one brake fail incident thankfully. It had all the classic symptoms, travelling quicker than I should have been to make a deadline, the route was over the North York Moors heading to the small coastal town of Sleights near Whitby so it was gentle touches on the brake pedal down the hills but not too much so I wouldn’t lose much power and speed up the hills, the exhaust brake on my oldish Sed Aki 401 wasn’t working but no problem things were going ok.

That is until I approached the run in to the very steep Blue Bank that led into the town, early sign warning of this was enough for me to start slowing to a respectable speed to negotiate this, again careful braking until I realised the old tub wasn’t slowing as much as I’d like, just then the warning buzzer came on and a glance at the gauges showed the needles way down, oh oh keep calm brake a little harder there is still some air enough to slow right down, no there isn’t foot is flat to the floor nowt is happening speed around 40mph as a guess although I wasn’t concentrating on that for the moment, ok Secondary on slowly allow the spring brakes to apply some pressure, blimey doesn’t seem like much happening and now on the last flat stretch before the road dissapeared down that bank. Left the parkbrake fully on now and started running the wheels along the kerb up and down, its slowing, yes it is slower slower and stopped. Buzzer going like hell, foot still glued to the pedal strong smell of burning linings, legs like jelly and heart somewhere in my mouth and about ten yards from a decent into something I didn’t want to dwell on.

The vehicle wasn’t going anywhere, the air wouldn’t rebuild even after a long period to ensure all had cooled down, a passing Policeman stopped to enquire if I had problems, I didn’t give him the whole tale but he was extremely grateful I’d got the thing stopped I guess he didn’t want the sort of busy morning he would have got if things didn’t work out, he had known it before. The nearest dealer mechanic came out and had to change the airdryer it was choked and the system was full of gunge which he couldn’t do much about at least I got full air again and was able to carry on, I’ve never gone down a hill so slowly in my life and noted the twists and turns which I would never have been able to get around with a runaway.

That wasn’t the end of the story once back in the workshop the fitter listed the situation with the brakes, center steer axle on the unit and a trailer axle doing nothing, other brakes out of adjustment and in poor condition anyway resulting in a combination of brake fade and no brake. What with this, the road I was on and my hurried pace it was a recipe for disaster, the brake system as a whole was in a shocking state and this whole episode was a huge learning experience. Being a Fitter doing a spell of driving as some do, I was more annoyed with myself and realised I got into the mode some drivers get into, jump into the wagon in the morning and out again at the end of the day and as long as the deliveries were done ok there wasn’t much else to worry about. I took a lot more interest in the hidden condition of my vehicles after this, however some drivers have no mechanical knowledge of the vehicle they are driving and what may be happening to the parts they can’t see, quite rightly where brakes are concerned this should be left to the maintenance department and unfortunately in some operations this is where things fall flat and the opportunities for events to go wrong multiply.

Again I can’t speculate if this kind of scenario happened to the driver of the tipper but I know the feeling when everything is applied and nothing is slowing you, I’ll give him credit for one thing he stayed with the vehicle, my drivers door handle was coming into my mind if things didn’t change for the better, not something I would like to repeat. Franky.

toby1234abc:
I noticed the media jumping on the side of the locals wanting a truck ban for years on the road of the crash.
Sky news lady said Baths infrastructure cant support large coaches and Lgv traffic and mentioned the tour coach that crashed on Brassknocker hill, that is marked as a 7.5 ton limit for trucks but coaches use it all the time for a shortcut.
Itv West and Points West both had a local councilor on , saying a Lgv ban and weight limit is needed and he predicted an accidentwaiting to happen years ago.
Width warning signs are 6 feet, the tipper was 8 feet wide.
A man who made tea for the driver and took him inside his house to consul him, said he was in a state of distress.
The tipper could have got all the way to the botto

Bath is already littered with weight limits and width restrictions… They can’t have it both ways… They want industry there, but they don’t want any of the vehicles involved with it.

Driving around bath is an absolute ball ache, as the main road through it it’s pretty much stationary from 8am to 11am. The majority of the back roads are physically too small to get an hgv down and are also Weight limited.
As mentioned earlier, this road is not weight limited, but width restricted due to a narrow section outside the Mazda garage (which is one of my customers). To reach the school, you either have to come down the hill, or drive through the centre of bath and still go through the width restriction. Taking the centre route could easily add an hour to each journey and is far more residential than the hill route, which is pretty much empty until you reach the bottom.

One of my other customers is slap bang up the middle of that hill, so I have to use it regardless of what future restrictions they put on if any.

Bath is not suited for Lorries it’s true, it’s too small, too hilly and still has the Roman layout, but as long as the council keeps on allowing building work and other industry to go ahead, it’s ineveitable lorries are going to have to travel through it.

A mate of mine had brake loss, on a six wheeler Scania tipper,Luckily he got away with it. Turned out it was the load sensing valve sticking.

Carryfast:

mc thackeray:

Carryfast:
Assuming it was a cooked brakes scenario any form of brake actuation,low gear and exhaust brake will do nothing.Except maybe the miraculous chance that it over revs the engine to the point where it blows up in a way which locks up the drives.

what a load of crap!

Feel free to explain how you’re going to slow stop a 32 tonne runaway wagon rolling down a steep hill with no brakes in the form of no working drums/shoes. :unamused:

I don’t think by reading his other posts he knows what he’s on about Carry … he even cheated doing his test :wink:

Dave the Renegade:
A mate of mine had brake loss, on a six wheeler Scania tipper,Luckily he got away with it. Turned out it was the load sensing valve sticking.

Think it has been ascertained that he tried the parking brake and it made no difference. On that basis I think it is going to boil down to an exact repeat of Sowerby Bridge, where the brakes were so worn as to be ineffective, or the brakes were cooked.

Read in the paper today that the driver in the bath crash is 19 yrs old,surely that can’t be right,I know the law allows young people to drive hgvs now but at 19 he would not have the experience to drive a 30 tonne tipper surely

truckman020:
Read in the paper today that the driver in the bath crash is 19 yrs old,surely that can’t be right,I know the law allows young people to drive hgvs now but at 19 he would not have the experience to drive a 30 tonne tipper surely

The Young Driver Scheme

The Young LGV Driver Scheme is managed by the Road Haulage & Distribution Training Council on behalf of the Department for Transport.

Young drivers do a real and productive job whilst receiving first class training towards LGV licence acquisition and industry specific, nationally recognised qualifications.

The Scheme provides the opportunity for a young person to obtain a full Category C driving licence at the age of 18 rather than 21 and a Category C+E licence before his or her 21st birthday.

What’s involved?
Registered young drivers follow a structured training programme leading to a Level 2 Scottish / National Vocational Qualification (S/NVQ) in either “Driving Goods Vehicles” or "Transporting Goods by Road ". In addition their LGV driving skills are regularly assessed.

Stages

  1. Young person recruited / selected by company Registered on to the Scheme Training Plan agreed and Induction training given
  2. Pre-driving units of S/NVQ achieved Application (through RHDTC) for
    provisional Category C licence
  3. Driver Training
  4. Pass test and gain licence
  5. Receive four satisfactory driving assessments during first six months after taking LGV test Complete S/NVQ
  6. YDS completion certificate issued after stages 1-5 successfully completed
  7. (Optional) Driver training for Category C+E licence and C+E test passed
    (This must be at least 6 months after passing ‘C’ test)

Funding
Employers are able to access funding through the local Learning & Skills Council if the trainee is registered on a Foundation Modern Apprenticeship. This requires the addition of the Key Skills of communication, application of number and information technology to the training programme. For more details on how to access funding, contact your local Approved Training Organisation. (List available from the RHDTC).

Scheme features
New trainees must be between their 16th and 21st birthdays and have no more than 3 penalty points on their licence
All trainees must be employed by a company registered with the RHDTC
All trainees must be registered with an Approved Training Organisation
(ATO) - a list is available from the RHDTC
A training plan will be agreed and monitored by the employer, trainee and the Approved Training Organisation
Induction and Health and Safety training will form a central requirement of the scheme.
Assessment of trainees’ skills will largely be done at work but there
will be a requirement to undertake some “off the job” training
A trainee can begin Category C+E driver training 6 months after passing
their Category C test as long as they have completed both the S/NVQ and
driving assessments
Young drivers will automatically lose their Category C or C+E licence
entitlement if they accrue more than 3 penalty points on their licence
If a young driver ceases to be employed by a registered employer while
on the Scheme they will automatically lose their entitlement to drive
Category C or C+E vehicles
Trainees must be properly monitored, supervised and supported
throughout the programme. This is primarily the employers
responsibility, however, the ATO is accountable to the RHDTC who may
undertake periodic checks to ensure that the rules of the scheme are
adhered to
Information provided by RHDTC.

truckman020:
Read in the paper today that the driver in the bath crash is 19 yrs old,surely that can’t be right,I know the law allows young people to drive hgvs now but at 19 he would not have the experience to drive a 30 tonne tipper surely

To be honest this is nothing new …you could in time gone by been under the young drivers scheme at 18 even in the army they’re driving heavy kit at 18/19 so there’s only one way in getting experience and that’s by doing the job.
No different to a 30 yr old that’s never really driven anything above a car doing cat C then a week later doing C+E.
The only real way to learn is by doing the job pointless saying you have to have a cat B for 5 yrs the a cat C for 5 yrs then you can go for a cat C+E it would be the perfect way but it’ll never happen

only had brake fail once and luckily I had the old style trailer brake lever which brought me to a stop.

sincere condolences to all who died and their families. RIP all.

Winseer:
The old leyland roadtrains had the ignition key in such a position on the side of the steering column - that my knee used to bang against the dangling keys, even with the seat set back as far as possible, and fluffed up high as well.

I’ve had this happen several times with ERF’s, the key being on the right hand side of the steering column at knee height :unamused: Usually happened during a sharp turn, thus losing power steering. Never had an accident as a result of this happening, always managed to restart before any harm was done.

My condolences to all concerned in Bath, no doubt there will be an inquiry and we’ll all know the cause eventually.

Dave the Renegade:

truckman020:
Read in the paper today that the driver in the bath crash is 19 yrs old,surely that can’t be right,I know the law allows young people to drive hgvs now but at 19 he would not have the experience to drive a 30 tonne tipper surely

The Young Driver Scheme

The Young LGV Driver Scheme is managed by the Road Haulage & Distribution Training Council on behalf of the Department for Transport.

Young drivers do a real and productive job whilst receiving first class training towards LGV licence acquisition and industry specific, nationally recognised qualifications.

The Scheme provides the opportunity for a young person to obtain a full Category C driving licence at the age of 18 rather than 21 and a Category C+E licence before his or her 21st birthday.

What’s involved?
Registered young drivers follow a structured training programme leading to a Level 2 Scottish / National Vocational Qualification (S/NVQ) in either “Driving Goods Vehicles” or "Transporting Goods by Road ". In addition their LGV driving skills are regularly assessed.

Stages

  1. Young person recruited / selected by company Registered on to the Scheme Training Plan agreed and Induction training given
  2. Pre-driving units of S/NVQ achieved Application (through RHDTC) for
    provisional Category C licence
  3. Driver Training
  4. Pass test and gain licence
  5. Receive four satisfactory driving assessments during first six months after taking LGV test Complete S/NVQ
  6. YDS completion certificate issued after stages 1-5 successfully completed
  7. (Optional) Driver training for Category C+E licence and C+E test passed
    (This must be at least 6 months after passing ‘C’ test)

Funding
Employers are able to access funding through the local Learning & Skills Council if the trainee is registered on a Foundation Modern Apprenticeship. This requires the addition of the Key Skills of communication, application of number and information technology to the training programme. For more details on how to access funding, contact your local Approved Training Organisation. (List available from the RHDTC).

Scheme features
New trainees must be between their 16th and 21st birthdays and have no more than 3 penalty points on their licence
All trainees must be employed by a company registered with the RHDTC
All trainees must be registered with an Approved Training Organisation
(ATO) - a list is available from the RHDTC
A training plan will be agreed and monitored by the employer, trainee and the Approved Training Organisation
Induction and Health and Safety training will form a central requirement of the scheme.
Assessment of trainees’ skills will largely be done at work but there
will be a requirement to undertake some “off the job” training
A trainee can begin Category C+E driver training 6 months after passing
their Category C test as long as they have completed both the S/NVQ and
driving assessments
Young drivers will automatically lose their Category C or C+E licence
entitlement if they accrue more than 3 penalty points on their licence
If a young driver ceases to be employed by a registered employer while
on the Scheme they will automatically lose their entitlement to drive
Category C or C+E vehicles
Trainees must be properly monitored, supervised and supported
throughout the programme. This is primarily the employers
responsibility, however, the ATO is accountable to the RHDTC who may
undertake periodic checks to ensure that the rules of the scheme are
adhered to
Information provided by RHDTC.

obviously I am behind with the times,i thought they got rid of that scheme some years ago