weeto:
Perhaps they don’t do it because there is no need to do it in this day and age, maybe they only thing that is missing from the test is a loaded hill decent, but who in there right mind would want to supervise a learner doing one of them?
I think that is the type of logic which ( might possibly ) eventually turn out to have resulted in the case in question assuming no mechanical failure.While if not still leaves a massive potential risk regardless.So exactly what evidence are you going by which suggests that service brakes have any more significant reserves of durability or heat tolerance before becoming useless in ‘this day and age’ as opposed to an earlier ‘day and age’.
As for supervising/testing ‘a learner’ to carry out a loaded severe hill descent at the very least I’d suggest the theory should be part of the DCPC as shown in the video which I posted.Combined with the general doctrine of gears to slow not brakes as part of the general driver training regime would suffice.Assuming a driver with an adequate level of common sense needed to do the job.
I should think some of evidence would come from the lack of use of escape lanes on hilly sections, Garroby Hill for one, that has had grass growing in it for years.
And then there is obviously my own experience, which is zero incidents of brake fade in 26 years, then there is the technological advances in truck braking systems including pad and shoe compounds.
Then there would be the evidence the government will have on truck accidents and what caused them, then there is automatic slack adjusters that always have the brakes working to full potential on every wheel, no more having 4 of the six drums on a trailer not doing their fare share, no more miss match of breaking on all axles or between unit and trailer.
Before you carry on this, put in an FOI request for all incidents caused by brake fade in the last 10 years, I think that would be a very rare occurrence in these modern times on modern vehicles.
Ironically I never had any incidents of cooked brakes in my time either driving trucks of between mid-late 20th century in age and in which I drove the latest in the same way as the oldest regards use of gears to slow not brakes.
While within your calculation you’d obviously need to factor in issues like the change to more motorway running with less severe grades and generally proportionally higher increase in axle numbers than overall weight.You’d also expect to see a proportional reduction in the capacity of engine braking and retarder systems technology in line with the so called ‘increase’ in the heat tolerance and ‘efficiency’ of modern day service brakes.
In which case it seems that people like Voith and Jacobs aren’t going with the script.Nor,possibly,when a 4 axle 32 tonner etc finds itself in the wrong gear in the wrong place at the wrong time.Or possibly even in the right gear,let alone the wrong one,but with already hot brakes before it started asking for more from them.
I went for an interview at Corby Glen Transport yonks ago. The oil covered and tired looking guy that owned it was keen to find out if I knew how to drive a twin splitter (which I could). He said, the reason being…just look at the old slick and sawdust on harrowby hill in Grantham. Apparently a new young fella panicked downhill, speed ran away and somehow (amazing with an eaton) managed to force the box. The gearbox exploded all over the road.
weeto:
Perhaps they don’t do it because there is no need to do it in this day and age, maybe they only thing that is missing from the test is a loaded hill decent, but who in there right mind would want to supervise a learner doing one of them?
I think that is the type of logic which ( might possibly ) eventually turn out to have resulted in the case in question assuming no mechanical failure.While if not still leaves a massive potential risk regardless.So exactly what evidence are you going by which suggests that service brakes have any more significant reserves of durability or heat tolerance before becoming useless in ‘this day and age’ as opposed to an earlier ‘day and age’.
As for supervising/testing ‘a learner’ to carry out a loaded severe hill descent at the very least I’d suggest the theory should be part of the DCPC as shown in the video which I posted.Combined with the general doctrine of gears to slow not brakes as part of the general driver training regime would suffice.Assuming a driver with an adequate level of common sense needed to do the job.
I should think some of evidence would come from the lack of use of escape lanes on hilly sections, Garroby Hill for one, that has had grass growing in it for years.
And then there is obviously my own experience, which is zero incidents of brake fade in 26 years, then there is the technological advances in truck braking systems including pad and shoe compounds.
Then there would be the evidence the government will have on truck accidents and what caused them, then there is automatic slack adjusters that always have the brakes working to full potential on every wheel, no more having 4 of the six drums on a trailer not doing their fare share, no more miss match of breaking on all axles or between unit and trailer.
Before you carry on this, put in an FOI request for all incidents caused by brake fade in the last 10 years, I think that would be a very rare occurrence in these modern times on modern vehicles.
Ironically I never had any incidents of cooked brakes in my time either driving trucks of between mid-late 20th century in age and in which I drove the latest in the same way as the oldest regards use of gears to slow not brakes.
While within your calculation you’d obviously need to factor in issues like the change to more motorway running with less severe grades and generally proportionally higher increase in axle numbers than overall weight.You’d also expect to see a proportional reduction in the capacity of engine braking and retarder systems technology in line with the so called ‘increase’ in the heat tolerance and ‘efficiency’ of modern day service brakes.
In which case it seems that people like Voith and Jacobs aren’t going with the script.Nor,possibly,when a 4 axle 32 tonner etc finds itself in the wrong gear in the wrong place at the wrong time.Or possibly even in the right gear,let alone the wrong one,but with already hot brakes before it started asking for more from them.
weeto:
Would you put your life in their hands? I have seen “qualified” drivers out there who I would NOT get into the cab with, let alone a learner!!
i’d happily teach someone how to go down a hill at full weight.
maybe if they had of been shown how to do it, you wouldn’t be scared of getting in with them
i’ve heard landing a plane can be a bit tricky, shall we just talk the trainees through it, then wish them luck whilst taking you off on your jollies?
You crack on then.
And I think before they get to land a plane would involve a lot more than 3 4 or 5 days of training.
ok, i will.
i never mentioned 3,4 or 5 days training, anyway you’re coming over a bit roy cropper
I don’t like the landings anyway, especially at a windy LBA.
So, you must of agreed with the other crap I posted, since you didn’t make any comment, and it’s more to do with self preservation than being scared.
weeto:
Perhaps they don’t do it because there is no need to do it in this day and age, maybe they only thing that is missing from the test is a loaded hill decent, but who in there right mind would want to supervise a learner doing one of them?
I don’t understand drivers that bang on about “this day and age” and modern brakes
if you know owt about 8 wheel Scania tippers you will know that the drum brake set up which is fitted to many has remained unchanged for years, iro 25+ apart from the introduction of abs!
In the event of a runaway the park brake which is only applied by springs is more than likely only fitted to the 2’nd and 3’rd axle and even if your arm was moving as fast as a fiddlers elbow changing down the gears the engine on it’s own would provide very little engine braking before blowing up!
not related to this vehicle or accident but how “in this day and age” is it possible that an EBS fault can cause serious loss of braking on some vehicles? now electronics have been introduced into braking systems there’s more to go wrong/fail than ever before!
Does anyone remember this thread was started because 4 people,one of them a 4 yr old girl, died? Its turned into 12 pages of crap from a debate about brakes and braking systems and now its turned into an argument. Can we not just offer condolances to those that died and leave it at that?
weeto:
Perhaps they don’t do it because there is no need to do it in this day and age, maybe they only thing that is missing from the test is a loaded hill decent, but who in there right mind would want to supervise a learner doing one of them?
I don’t understand drivers that bang on about “this day and age” and modern brakes
if you know owt about 8 wheel Scania tippers you will know that the drum brake set up which is fitted to many has remained unchanged for years, even if your arm was moving as fast as a fiddlers elbow changing down the gears the engine on it’s own would provide very little engine braking
Firstly the capacity improvement in discs still wouldn’t justify the DSA regime of over reliance on service brakes.
As for downshifting the idea is to get it all done and in the right gear before,or at most at the start of,the descent.As for the capacity of the engine’s braking contribution as I said the law should at least make the Jake,as opposed to exhaust brake,idea compulsory.While a retarder with exhaust brake would be about as good as it gets.
The-Snowman:
Does anyone remember this thread was started because 4 people,one of them a 4 yr old girl, died? Its turned into 12 pages of crap from a debate about brakes and braking systems and now its turned into an argument. Can we not just offer condolances to those that died and leave it at that?
Or moan about the type of foreseeable ‘issues’ concerning the current driver training regime,which ‘could’,quite conceivably, cause more similar casualties in the future assuming they didn’t also cause this example.
The-Snowman:
Does anyone remember this thread was started because 4 people,one of them a 4 yr old girl, died? Its turned into 12 pages of crap from a debate about brakes and braking systems and now its turned into an argument. Can we not just offer condolances to those that died and leave it at that?
It’s an industry forum. Discussion about such things was bound to take place. All threads end in arguments on tnet.
Moose:
Yes carryfast I am quite aware what the idea is as I often drive and repair the same type and make of vehicle!
On that note I’ve said previously that in this case neither engine braking or service brakes alone would have been enough both working together obviously being essential.I’ve also pointed out the question of witnesses hearing a horn warning but no mention of a screaming out of the red engine.
weeto:
Perhaps they don’t do it because there is no need to do it in this day and age, maybe they only thing that is missing from the test is a loaded hill decent, but who in there right mind would want to supervise a learner doing one of them?
I don’t understand drivers that bang on about “this day and age” and modern brakes
if you know owt about 8 wheel Scania tippers you will know that the drum brake set up which is fitted to many has remained unchanged for years, iro 25+ apart from the introduction of abs!
In the event of a runaway the park brake which is only applied by springs is more than likely only fitted to the 2’nd and 3’rd axle and even if your arm was moving as fast as a fiddlers elbow changing down the gears the engine on it’s own would provide very little engine braking before blowing up!
not related to this vehicle or accident but how “in this day and age” is it possible that an EBS fault can cause serious loss of braking on some vehicles? now electronics have been introduced into braking systems there’s more to go wrong/fail than ever before!
It’s called change, technology has moved the industry out of the dark ages, there is more trust put into the vehicle to do the job in hand, in this day and age it is, according to the government, deemed to be safe to increase truck speed limits due to vast improvements in vehicle design over the years.
It’s not all about what the vehicle can do when things go wrong, it’s about what they can do when they are right.
weeto:
Perhaps they don’t do it because there is no need to do it in this day and age, maybe they only thing that is missing from the test is a loaded hill decent, but who in there right mind would want to supervise a learner doing one of them?
I don’t understand drivers that bang on about “this day and age” and modern brakes
if you know owt about 8 wheel Scania tippers you will know that the drum brake set up which is fitted to many has remained unchanged for years, iro 25+ apart from the introduction of abs!
It’s called change, technology has moved the industry out of the dark ages, there is more trust put into the vehicle to do the job in hand, in this day and age it is, according to the government, deemed to be safe to increase truck speed limits due to vast improvements in vehicle design over the years.
It’s not all about what the vehicle can do when things go wrong, it’s about what they can do when they are right.
You’re as dangerously/insanely deluded as the DSA system which you obviously blindly support.‘Technology’ in this case being the contradictory idea of an I shift which has auto downshift to do the same job of providing engine braking which a driver should be able to do,but which the DSA says shouldn’t be done anyway because the brakes are supposed to do it all.In addition to essential safety fitments like Jake brakes or retarders and drivers who know how to use them.As for truck speeds you’ve obviously forgotten when we were able to run at 60 mph without limiters.
weeto:
Perhaps they don’t do it because there is no need to do it in this day and age, maybe they only thing that is missing from the test is a loaded hill decent, but who in there right mind would want to supervise a learner doing one of them?
I don’t understand drivers that bang on about “this day and age” and modern brakes
if you know owt about 8 wheel Scania tippers you will know that the drum brake set up which is fitted to many has remained unchanged for years, iro 25+ apart from the introduction of abs!
It’s called change, technology has moved the industry out of the dark ages, there is more trust put into the vehicle to do the job in hand, in this day and age it is, according to the government, deemed to be safe to increase truck speed limits due to vast improvements in vehicle design over the years.
It’s not all about what the vehicle can do when things go wrong, it’s about what they can do when they are right.
You’re as dangerously/insanely deluded as the DSA system which you obviously blindly support.‘Technology’ in this case being the contradictory idea of an I shift which has auto downshift to do the same job of providing engine braking which a driver should be able to do,but which the DSA says shouldn’t be done anyway because the brakes are supposed to do it all.In addition to essential safety fitments like Jake brakes or retarders and drivers who know how to use them.As for truck speeds you’ve obviously forgotten when we were able to run at 60 mph without limiters.
That is very kind of you to say, incidentally how active have you been in the last 12 months in persuading the DSA to come round to your way of how a truck should or shouldn’t be driven?
The-Snowman:
Does anyone remember this thread was started because 4 people,one of them a 4 yr old girl, died? Its turned into 12 pages of crap from a debate about brakes and braking systems and now its turned into an argument. Can we not just offer condolances to those that died and leave it at that?
I don’t think you’re in any position to criticise others for starting pointless arguments.
