Janos:
Still not sure my nineteen year old self was mature and aware enough to be trusted to drive a fully laden truck down a steep hill as the schools come out. Not judging the driver in the accident though, just discussing the general topics that this thread has thrown up.
Nor me, at 19 i was busy trying to keep a Ford A or D series on Michelin X ditchfinders upright on the wet tarmac, talk about 4 wheel steering, those little lorries devoid of power steering (ABS,ASR, Anything at all) gave you a healthy respect for the lack of any meaningful grip afforded to lorry tyres.
I don’t agree with the reduction in age either, though by the same token i’m still learning different techniques unique to my particular lorry after a lifetime behind the lorry wheel and just over 2 years with this particular steed.
You never stop learning and you never know it all, and anyone who thinks, should they get by for years without a scrape, that it’s by skill alone is seriously deluded, there is an awful lot of luck involved.
Edit, as erfguy…ours is a profession, any bloody fool can pilot a modern lorry up a motorway it’s only a case of attending the wheel and applying some throttle, but taking the job seriously enough to learn to do it all as well as it can be done in all it’s diverse forms takes many years, and some despite doing it for years have never and will never take the slightest interest in perfecting or improving their performance…nor any pride in their work.
burnie1:
Is it right that you can get your class 1 licence at 18 by passing a test in a 12 tonne automatic truck towing a small drawbar trailer with a load of 8 tonne on it?
This is the requirement of the vehicle needed to take a c+e test and it’s a far bigger vehicle than the one I took my test in 20+ years ago.
Category C+E vehicles must be at least 2.4 metres wide. There are 2 types of C+E test vehicle:
a drawbar combination of a category C vehicle and trailer with a MAM of 20 tonnes and a length of at least 7.5 metres from coupling eye to extreme rear and a combined length of at least 14 metres
an articulated lorry with a MAM of at least 20 tonnes, a minimum length of 14 metres and maximum length of 16.5 metres
burnie1:
Is it right that you can get your class 1 licence at 18 by passing a test in a 12 tonne automatic truck towing a small drawbar trailer with a load of 8 tonne on it?
This is the requirement of the vehicle needed to take a c+e test and it’s a far bigger vehicle than the one I took my test in 20+ years ago.
Category C+E vehicles must be at least 2.4 metres wide. There are 2 types of C+E test vehicle:
a drawbar combination of a category C vehicle and trailer with a MAM of 20 tonnes and a length of at least 7.5 metres from coupling eye to extreme rear and a combined length of at least 14 metres
an articulated lorry with a MAM of at least 20 tonnes, a minimum length of 14 metres and maximum length of 16.5 metres
With all due respect the roads are far busier these day and trucks can be longer and heavier.
Dave the Renegade:
No one on this thread knows what happened to cause the terrible accident in Bath. R.I.P. to the four people that lost their lives, and condolences to their families.
The relevant authorities will delve into the cause of the accident. My sympathy also goes out to the driver of the lorry, who young or not, didn’t set out to harm anyone. By the law of averages these terrible events happen unfortunately. A sad day for all involved.
erfguy:
Well Muckles you think what you like but having been driving lorries for 40yrs I and many like me consider it a PROFESSION. No wonder drivers are treated like [zb] if some of you take that view of the job you do. Eddie.
you and many other may consider yourself to be professional, you may conduct yourself in a professional manner and be very good at your job, and I know many drivers who do and I hope I go about the job in the same way, but while we work in an industry whose entry requirements are a couple of weeks of basic training and a simple test then it can’t be considered a profession.
The only time anybody else, especially in authority, considers us professionals is when we mess up and they then tell us we aren’t driving to professional standards.
he has had C license for a few months
BBC news updated
Correction: This article has been amended to clarify that Mr Potter passed his LGV licence to operate the tipper truck several months ago, while a more recent test he undertook permitted him to drive more advanced vehicle
GasGas:
I’ve spoken, twice, to the BBC about the rubbish they are currently broadcasting and have on their website relating to this incident.
The BBC News article has now been edited…
BBC News:
The driver of a tipper truck that crashed in Bath, killing a child and three adults, had recently passed a test to drive more advanced vehicles.
Philip Potter, 19, was transporting aggregate on Monday when the lorry careered down Lansdown Lane, hitting vehicles and pedestrians.
He had been licensed to drive the truck for months but recently passed a more advanced test to drive other heavy goods vehicles.
BBC News: Correction: This article has been amended to clarify that Mr Potter passed his LGV licence to operate the tipper truck several months ago, while a more recent test he undertook permitted him to drive more advanced vehicles.
GasGas:
The real problem is for young drivers they may know the theory, but the reality of seeing the rev counter deep in the blue -just short of the red P45 line, and hearing the horrible noises that the engine makes, may be too much for them. Unless they’ve experienced it with an instructor saying “This is what it looks and sounds like” they may not realise that what seems wrong is actually right.
I’ve posted this previously in that this is what a truck should sound like when slowing down for roundabouts etc etc on the flat.IE sequential downshifts to maintain as low gear and as high engine speed as possible therefore maximum engine braking throughout the approach as road speed decreases.
Or just a constant howl in the top reaches of the useable engine speed envelope on downgrades having slowed down and selected the right ( low enough ) gear at the start of the descent.Although unfortunately it will probably be the less effective exhaust brake not Jake in the euro environment.
However I don’t think anyone should be under the illusion that the driver instruction sector is actually onside regarding this issue.Bearing in mind that I’d doubt if even many of them,understand or practice the idea of gears to slow brakes to stop,themselves.
Typical, even the BBC news reports are quick to condemn this young lad, wonder how much of a body swerve they will make if say it turns out the vehicle was badly maintained where the braking system was so poor it wasn’t operating to its full efficiency, it was the first time the driver had used this vehicle and he was under pressure from his boss to ‘get the job done’ and being a fairly new driver to the company he didn’t want to ‘rock the boat’ so jumped in with his Boss telling him just follow me I’ll show you the way! Mmm, we on here will then also have to start deriding the maintenance staff, Gaffers and customers that want everything done yesterday and start and have some sympathy with this poor kid. Or am I jumping to conclusions! See where I’m coming from though, we are up to page 8 now and most of it has been about lads too young to drive and the poor standard of training, as for repeating what newspapers or over excited telly reporters churn out then we’ve got no chance. I think this needs a rest until we actually find out what really happened then discuss it.
Frankydobo:
Typical, even the BBC news reports are quick to condemn this young lad, wonder how much of a body swerve they will make if say it turns out the vehicle was badly maintained where the braking system was so poor it wasn’t operating to its full efficiency, it was the first time the driver had used this vehicle and he was under pressure from his boss to ‘get the job done’ and being a fairly new driver to the company he didn’t want to ‘rock the boat’ so jumped in with his Boss telling him just follow me I’ll show you the way! Mmm, we on here will then also have to start deriding the maintenance staff, Gaffers and customers that want everything done yesterday and start and have some sympathy with this poor kid. Or am I jumping to conclusions! See where I’m coming from though, we are up to page 8 now and most of it has been about lads too young to drive and the poor standard of training, as for repeating what newspapers or over excited telly reporters churn out then we’ve got no chance. I think this needs a rest until we actually find out what really happened then discuss it.
I think the general message contained in the topic is that 1) No one knows what happened.
Some say that age is relevant while some,like me,say it isn’t.
But the fact is trucks don’t just runaway for no reason they either do so because of maintenance errors,unforeseeable or uncontrollable mechanical failure,or driver error.
The relevant most important part of the topic being a clearly identifiable dangerous flaw within the driver training regime.With a resulting foreseeable result of the over stressing of truck brakes through lack of sufficient use of engine braking,assuming the cause turns out to be driver error or possibly even mechanical failure.Regardless of which pointing out such a flaw can only help to contribute to future safety assuming that is the establishment is willing to lose face by acting on it.
Two questions if I may? 1) anyone used the gravel trap? 2) anyone drove a pig?
This young driver BS! could’ve happened to anyone of us sensationalist journalism at best, mark my words " THE ESTABLISHMENT/ GOVERNMINT will try to hang out MR potter ( unfortunately ) " as the lowest in the food chain but I hope for his sake/ sanity it’s proven it’s mechanical failure! I hope he becomes back to the industry and I hope he gets proper counselling too! but as we all know, that won’t be happening!
Remember the Glasgow bin lorry one ? Driver NORTH OF THE BORDER " not named? "
Winseer was correct ! " driver SOUTH OF THE BORDER! " named and trying TO SHAME INSTANTLY! Tut tut tut the establishment will be shafting Mr potter, not some suit from DSA, DVLA, RHA, FTA OR THE DFT! No, giving out licences from lucky dip bags will serve no purpose see, remember they’ll take your ££££’ s but no responsibility for their actions / pat on their backs for " jimmy 100% HGV 1 pass rate in thirty years "
The last two trucks that I drove (six wheeler Fodens, ■■■■■■■ L10’s) both had the exhaust brakes disconnected anyway so hills had to be taken ‘properly’ in low gears. Never had a problem with them stopping and we have a few steep banks, plus they had been upgraded from 24 to 26 tonners with the same size drums and linings. Incidently, and off topic, we had a brand new Foden in 1982 fitted with a ■■■■■■■ 250 and ■■■■■■■ wouldn’t give warranty on the engine unless we removed the exhaust brake, they would only accept it if fitted with a Jake Brake so off it came! Never did get a Jake fitted on it though.
Harry Monk:
It’s got nothing to do with the driver’s age or experience, when you put your foot on the brake pedal it either works or it doesn’t.
The point also being that following the training doctrine of brakes to slow gears to go to the letter on an inevitably instinctive basis massively increases the chances of the latter in the form of over stressed/cooked brakes.Which would be a foreseeable catastrophic failure of the training regime of which the unfortunate driver is just another victim.Regardless of the driver’s age.
GasGas:
The real problem is for young drivers they may know the theory, but the reality of seeing the rev counter deep in the blue -just short of the red P45 line, and hearing the horrible noises that the engine makes, may be too much for them. Unless they’ve experienced it with an instructor saying “This is what it looks and sounds like” they may not realise that what seems wrong is actually right.
I’ve posted this previously in that this is what a truck should sound like when slowing down for roundabouts etc etc on the flat.IE sequential downshifts to maintain as low gear and as high engine speed as possible therefore maximum engine braking throughout the approach as road speed decreases.
Or just a constant howl in the top reaches of the useable engine speed envelope on downgrades having slowed down and selected the right ( low enough ) gear at the start of the descent.Although unfortunately it will probably be the less effective exhaust brake not Jake in the euro environment.
However I don’t think anyone should be under the illusion that the driver instruction sector is actually onside regarding this issue.Bearing in mind that I’d doubt if even many of them,understand or practice the idea of gears to slow brakes to stop,themselves.
Got criticised by my examiner for doing this on test. Was told it wasn’t Eco driving or something. Admittedly only did it at the time as wanted to approach traffic lights etc so was still moving when they changed as was paranoid about stalling on test from a handbrake start.
Carryfast:
Do you really have any clue as to how to drive a heavy truck down a steep hill.You’re ‘already’ supposed to be in the ‘low gear’ in question providing maximum possible engine braking from the start of the decent.However ‘that’ won’t provide sufficient retardation on its own to maintain the required speed let alone stop the wagon.Without braking in addition all it will do is send the engine speed to stratospheric levels even with the exhaust brake.While declutching a heavy truck while descending a steep hill,because the thing isn’t ‘already’ in the correct low gear,is bad enough with brakes,let alone without.
The I chalange you to a braking contest sometime
peterm:
How can idiots like mc thackeray come on here and say what he says and expect to be taken seriously ? As I said earlier, this poor young bloke’s had a right old baptism of fire; I just hope he gets over it.
Carryfast:
It really is time that the whole subject was brought into the open and anyone involved in the agenda needs to be removed from the industry and then get the the idea of the use of gears and engine braking being seen as the essential part of a truck’s braking system that they always were.
mc thackeray:
And I all ready told you wack it into low gear and the engine will brake it simple as that
why do you think they used to have gear changing exersises on driving tests
0
Are yes the art of bigotry by neilg cadando 14yo keyboard warrier chamption
Trying to ignore mc thikerays idiotic, unintelligible post’s, I never had to pass a test for my class one in England because of grandad rights, But I, like many others of the time had the advantage of going out with my old dad in all sorts of lorries, to all sorts of places. One place was Marston Valley Brickfields at Ridgmont. We’d put 6,000 bricks on this poxy, underpowered, vacuum braked Leyland Hippo and then off we’d go.
The point here is that I’d watch him using the gear box to slow it down, using the brakes as little as possible. No jake brake / exhaust brake or retarder, just those poxy vacuum brakes. I learnt how to do most things before I was even big enough to drive, but that doesn’t happen now.
If this young bloke had been brought up around heavy vehicles, then it’s more than possible that he knew how to handle the thing, so I reckon we should wait and see if in fact it was caused by mechanical failure.
Carryfast:
Do you really have any clue as to how to drive a heavy truck down a steep hill.You’re ‘already’ supposed to be in the ‘low gear’ in question providing maximum possible engine braking from the start of the decent.However ‘that’ won’t provide sufficient retardation on its own to maintain the required speed let alone stop the wagon.Without braking in addition all it will do is send the engine speed to stratospheric levels even with the exhaust brake.While declutching a heavy truck while descending a steep hill,because the thing isn’t ‘already’ in the correct low gear,is bad enough with brakes,let alone without.
The I chalange you to a braking contest sometime
I thought you were saying that you could declutch a loaded truck on a steep downgrade without any brakes and still then manage to get it into a low enough gear to stop it with engine braking alone.
If you mean knowing how to get a lower gear on a down grade without missing it,because you weren’t bright enough to put it in the right gear when you had the chance at the top before going down it,then trust me you’ll need good working brakes to slow it down enough first before you declutch it and going by the bs which you’ve posted here you’d lose the bet because I just know you’d miss the gear anyway.Are you sure that you’re not a SAFED instructor.Personally I’d be very surprised if you’ve driven anything heavier than a Vauxhall Corsa.
1) anyone used the gravel trap? 2) anyone drove a pig?
could’ve happened to anyone of us 
sensationalist journalism at best, mark my words " THE ESTABLISHMENT/ GOVERNMINT will try to hang out MR potter ( unfortunately ) " 
I hope he becomes back to the industry and I hope he gets proper counselling too!