peterm:
Trying to ignore mc thikerays idiotic, unintelligible post’s, I never had to pass a test for my class one in England because of grandad rights, But I, like many others of the time had the advantage of going out with my old dad in all sorts of lorries, to all sorts of places. One place was Marston Valley Brickfields at Ridgmont. We’d put 6,000 bricks on this poxy, underpowered, vacuum braked Leyland Hippo and then off we’d go.
The point here is that I’d watch him using the gear box to slow it down, using the brakes as little as possible. No jake brake / exhaust brake or retarder, just those poxy vacuum brakes. I learnt how to do most things before I was even big enough to drive, but that doesn’t happen now.
If this young bloke had been brought up around heavy vehicles, then it’s more than possible that he knew how to handle the thing, so I reckon we should wait and see if in fact it was caused by mechanical failure.
The problem being that we’ve possibly,with very few exceptions,got at least two generations of drivers brought up on the doctrine of brakes to slow gears to go who apply it on the same instinctive basis as your dad used the doctrine of gears to slow brakes to stop.
peterm:
The point here is that I’d watch him using the gear box to slow it down, using the brakes as little as possible.
Yes yes yes…halalooyaa
Thank you lord Jusus
peterm:
If this young bloke had been brought up around heavy vehicles, then it’s more than possible that he knew how to handle the thing, so I reckon we should wait and see if in fact it was caused by mechanical failure.
er I’ll let you into a little secret ducky
Radio 4 said his father is a farmer
peterm:
The point here is that I’d watch him using the gear box to slow it down, using the brakes as little as possible.
Yes yes yes…halalooyaa
Thank you lord Jusus
peterm:
If this young bloke had been brought up around heavy vehicles, then it’s more than possible that he knew how to handle the thing, so I reckon we should wait and see if in fact it was caused by mechanical failure.
er I’ll let you into a little secret ducky
Radio 4 said his father is a farmer
just because his father is/was a farmer means nothing.
I don’t know why some are getting uppity about this thread.
No we don’t know the cause of the accident, what contributory factors, anything at all, but we can surmise several likely exacerbating factors.
All we do know is that it happened on a steep downhill and many if not all of us have the utmost sympathy with this new driver because we suspect his training didn’t include the importance of utilising engine/auxilliary braking at all times, especially when loaded, to keep the brakes cool as possible and as much as possible in reserve…and that training jolly well should have done so.
None of us have put any blame on the lad at all that i can see, it’s a discussion about a very important subject that does need airing, that being new drivers being to taught to pass a test and not being taught to drive a lorry as a lorry should be, which is nothing at all like and nothing to do with driving a sodding car.
Christs sake we even had a bloke (only the first one, our company quickly ditched that lot), who reckoned he was a HGV driving instructor, take us for our first DCPC course stressing the brakes to slow gears to go message and how we were doing it all wrong and how good brakes are now (yes bloody marvellous they are i agree, till something goes wrong, then they aint), and yes after his waffling cobblers about this for what seemed like an hour i just had to have a go at the pillock, described a similar scenario to this one and what was our theoretical young driver to do when everything’s overheated and then something unforseen happens, and you know what? that trainer hadn’t got a clue nor an answer (blustered some rubbish about stobbies teaching new drivers their own way !!! whatever thats supposed to mean) so one can only wonder what his unfortunate pupils have been taught and believed it was the gospel.
Juddian makes a pertinent point-PEOPLE GETTING UPPITTY!!
Earlier on this thread I posted my view that this discussion was being conducted in a professional and respectful way.
Whilst ‘challenges’ are being offered and willy waving is taking hold,can we please all be aware that anyone can view these discussions,including relatives/friends of the deceased/injured.
Sorry to preach. Just want people to remain calm and think before they post. As a reasonably new driver I am grateful to learn from drivers views/experiences on this topic,hopefully some good could come out of this awful situation.
Common sense was may only guardian during my 43 years on the road. I had a motorbike for a couple of years which taught me road sense and I passed my car test in 1965 when I was 21. I never owned a car as I could not afford one. I had moved tankers around the yard for the firm that I worked for and as soon as I passed my test I was driving eight wheel AEC,s and six wheel Commers through Bath to the Mendip Quarries with no instruction or tuition.
The lorries were not over maintained and this was always in my mind when going downhills etc. I remember the firm took on a young chap who had just left the army and they sent me out with him to show him the ropes. We came to the top of Redhill on the A38 past Bristol airport and he made no attempt to slow down even let alone brake or change down until I told him.
I retired in 2008, late enough to have dealt with auto boxes an digi tachos and I do not envy you drivers on the road today.
Several people have commented while in my car that they could see I was a lorry driver by the way I slowed down, changed down and then stopped. Unlike my wife who brakes hard at the last minute to stop and puts the fear of god into me.
Regards All Phil.
Numbum:
Common sense was may only guardian during my 43 years on the road. I had a motorbike for a couple of years which taught me road sense and I passed my car test in 1965 when I was 21. I never owned a car as I could not afford one. I had moved tankers around the yard for the firm that I worked for and as soon as I passed my test I was driving eight wheel AEC,s and six wheel Commers through Bath to the Mendip Quarries with no instruction or tuition.
The lorries were not over maintained and this was always in my mind when going downhills etc. I remember the firm took on a young chap who had just left the army and they sent me out with him to show him the ropes. We came to the top of Redhill on the A38 past Bristol airport and he made no attempt to slow down even let alone brake or change down until I told him.
I retired in 2008, late enough to have dealt with auto boxes an digi tachos and I do not envy you drivers on the road today.
Several people have commented while in my car that they could see I was a lorry driver by the way I slowed down, changed down and then stopped. Unlike my wife who brakes hard at the last minute to stop and puts the fear of god into me.
Regards All Phil.
Quite right Numbum, in those old motors we started out knowing full well, and we were told that, and soon found out for ourselves that the brakes would suffer easily from fade if abused and, ABS (and other traction oriented systems) being a lifetime away, knew full well WE had to control the bloody lorry or end up smashed up, and yes you’re quite right our old lorries often didn’t have any additional engine retardation at all (though to be fair the engine swept volumes were usually larger then in relation to GVW so more natural engine braking in gear), first exhaust brakes i experienced was on Scania 110/111 but in 1984 i got a Jake Braked ■■■■■■■■ a revelation that was and should IMO have been THE standard auxilliary retardation requirement for all lorries long ago as a basic minimum.
We certainly didn’t have some shiny panted trainer, of limited if any on road real full weight haulage experience, telling us that Utopia has risen and we can just drive it like a car safe in the knowledge that the brakes could cope with anything and then some and actually instruct us to stay in high gear using brakes alone …if we were trained it was usually by some bugger who’d forgotten more than we’d likely ever know and would have driven far worse combinations for a living in all conditions.
By the way before some outspoken sod (pot kettle black ) thinks that i’m saying us older soaks think we’re any better, that’s far from it, if anything we were lucky because we got taught/mentored/advised/chastised and often enough bollocked by those who had learned the hard way too, including our bosses who more than likely had done their road time too, we were also lucky enough to have vehicles that needed to be driven.
Progress will see new drivers today realising how lucky they were, in comparison to the newbies of 40 years hence, when the next 4 decades of sometimes backwards progress and even more shiny suits input that know little practical have taken effect.
Agree with everything Juddian said in his last post. When yopu get through your test you have nothing else to go on so are likely to ‘go by the book’ for a while if you’ve had brake to slow gears to go drummed into you in LGV training that is what you are likely to do, even if on a tractor/trailer combo you wouldn’t drive that way.
Son and his mate have just passed their theory/hazard tests this week so are about to get into the guts of the training, they’ve both been driving tractors with some progressively heavier kit attached (including 25000ltr trailing shoe slurry tankers and 16t silage trailers loaded to the top with wet grass) on some very unforgiving ground. I know they know what to do, once they get through their tests I’ll be having a little talk to them re forgetting some of the ■■■■■■■■ they had to do to pass their test and drive the way they know how to out in the real world.
chicane:
Son and his mate have just passed their theory/hazard tests this week so are about to get into the guts of the training, they’ve both been driving tractors with some progressively heavier kit attached (including 25000ltr trailing shoe slurry tankers and 16t silage trailers loaded to the top with wet grass) on some very unforgiving ground. I know they know what to do, once they get through their tests I’ll be having a little talk to them re forgetting some of the ■■■■■■■■ they had to do to pass their test and drive the way they know how to out in the real world.
+1
Quite right too, lucky young blokes too coming from that background and having someone with some experience and nous to put them right.
Unfortunately in the majority of new driver cases i suspect lots of company trainers (not ours, they’re old school fortunately) at the typical places simply endorse what the driving instructor pumped in, which is fine for the majority of RDC type robotic work but of no value at all when terrain and use deteriorate.
Some blokes i speak to get bollocked for using the engine revs to maximise engine braking when downloaded via one of the many one size fits all telematics systems they now use for spying, we’re throwing lots of babies out with the bathwater.
Some people seem of the opinion that it is disrespectful to be discussing this accident, and that people related to those involved could read what has been written, and that would be a bad thing too. I can’t think of anywhere better for it to be discussed to be honest. People posting RIP when the dead are still in the street with blankets over them?. Rest in Peace? The relatives want answers, there will be no peace for any of them for a long time.
Most on here have driven those hills or similar, in old and new trucks and there is nobody more qualified to speak on the subject than us. Drivers opinions may differ, but all are valid. You can have all the road safety experts you like, who may be able to give you a technical appraisal of the incident, but only a driver who has been there can give you an insight into the nuances of guiding a heavy vehicle through tricky situations. The best modern teaching method seems to be…put your foot through it driver.
People have also posted about how they rate young drivers over older blah blah, and a brake pedal is a brake pedal. So is a trigger on a gun, and I know I would prefer a 30 year old soldier in a tricky situation than a 19 year old every time. Also, for as long as I can remember insurance companies have regarded drivers under 25 as a much higher risk. They conclude this from statistical analysis of the accident figures. They have a lot to lose, and act accordingly. So how can some on here claim there is no problem, when all the evidence both anecdotally and statistically is to the contrary?
I am the “old school/learned to drive lorries that you had to stand up to turn the wheel in/those were the days” type of retired driver ! Seriously though,there have been many improvements over time. Much better oils so no need to change it so often,air dryers so no need to drain the tanks every day.
Nobody will ever convince me though that they have managed to “engineer-out” brake fade.It is un believeable that the official line seems to be “use the brakes as hard and for ever how long you like,that’s what they are there for”.Why have the powers that be not realised this? Complete madness in my opinion
Regards. John.
I’ve sometimes use a hill like the one in bath on the way down into Paington from the ring road.
Even using 4TH low, descending at about 22mph with the engine screaming just off the red band and exhaust brake constantly on, by the time you get to the bottom in the town, the brakes are stinking!
■■■■ knows what would happen if you took notice of the muppets who tell you to use just the brakes and not the gears!
I’d probably end up in the sea!!
Having only just passed my class 1 (class 2 4 weeks before) and then gone out Norwich to London empty and back full on thursday night with the regular driver as passenger I thought i would comment as a newbie . I have been driving 30 years and was taught to slow using the gears to help you slow down and so you could be ready for the junction as in stop or pull away accordingly . I passed in auto lorries and all above 7.5tonne are auto where I work , anyway the regular driver doesn’t use the retarder to slow down just the brakes (no reals hills on our route) and by accident (sausage fingers) I knocked the retarder on when flicking into manual to drop a gear ready for an uphill climb and didn’t notice until I then went to put cruise back on but thanks to this on a couple of the declines with a full load I discovered that using the retarder is a very effective way of limiting your speed before you need to apply the brakes . Seeing the recent comments on this thread if I was younger and had passed my test in recent times would I have the mentality you have been saying regarding brakes to stop gears to go ?
I know I have lots to learn but I think the way I was taught for a car all that time ago gives me a fighting chance .
Hello All,
These days in my opinion retarders should not be optional but standard fitment, I am not going to say for a minute that a retarder if fitted would have meant a different outcome at Bath but i would guess the tipper may have had one as some of the specs the tipper boys insist on is normally hi spec,Brakes as we know them have come a very long way in recent years but they have a very short operating use if over used even for short periods, We operate STGO with weights over 150 tons and keep the tractors for three years without seeing or even replacing brake shoes ,For the initial cost of fitting a retarder coupled to brake fade/ failure/ and replacement it is in my opinion a no brainer ,You would’nt expect to buy a truck with only one head lamp so why would somebody buy one that has not got a retarder, Just my humble opinion. .
My scania is manual v8, 5 stage retarder and I use gears, exhaust brake ( button on the floor ) and the retarder to slow me down! BRAKES TO STOP!
All the Heroes who come past me DOWNHILL BY LETTING IT ROLL! windy hill, Death Valley, brighouse and many more, what would they do with a blowout at 70/ 80 mph? use the brakes? Many more accidents waiting to happen I’m afraid!
Red, yellow and blue airlines on taps was good but you still had to learn/ know how to slow it down without brakes and yes we didn’t have abs then either! As well as deadmans in the old scanias, jakes you could tell the good drivers who never really had to have the brakes relined and also someone mentioned asbestos! Correct its all corporate BULLSTEIN which I’m surprised there’s not many more accidents involving fatalities every other day!
Rest in peace to those who passed, sincere condolences to your families but as I said in an earlier post " the establishment will hang Mr potter out to dry ! " not DLA, DVLA, ministry or some suit from DFT! they’re to blame IT STARTS AT THE TOP YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PATHETIC TRAINING TAKING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OFF PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NOT BE RIDING BICYCLES AROUND LONDON! Never mind different story! ENDEX
Gembo:
I’ve sometimes use a hill like the one in bath on the way down into Paington from the ring road.
Even using 4TH low, descending at about 22mph with the engine screaming just off the red band and exhaust brake constantly on, by the time you get to the bottom in the town, the brakes are stinking!
[zb] knows what would happen if you took notice of the muppets who tell you to use just the brakes and not the gears!
I’d probably end up in the sea!!
Added to which is the fact that the idea of brakes to slow gears to go on the approach to roundabouts etc can mean the possibility of ‘entering’ such a scenario with ‘already’ hot brakes before even starting the descent.Such as in those examples of the approach to the old Reigate Hill from Kingswood and Dewsbury from the M1 amongst others.
That what you’ve described being a similar description of that run down into Reigate with the old Clydesdale either loaded with bulk refuse or an even heavier Dozer or Shovel on the multi lift.Although in that case without the luxury of an exhaust brake.
Assuming that the truck in this case was in the correct gear when it lost its brakes and ran away it does seem to raise the question as to why the witness references to the horn warning but no mention ( so far ) of the ( what should be ) absolutely screaming engine that would have been way into the red at that point.
Eight legged tippers take some stopping when laden, as folks on site will often try to overload you. Easy to catch out the unwary, irrespective of age.
The more you drive, the more experience you get - well that’s the theory…
…if we were trained it was usually by some bugger who’d forgotten more than we’d likely ever know and would have driven far worse combinations for a living in all conditions.
) thinks that i’m saying us older soaks think we’re any better, that’s far from it, if anything we were lucky because we got taught/mentored/advised/chastised and often enough bollocked by those who had learned the hard way too, including our bosses who more than likely had done their road time too, we were also lucky enough to have vehicles that needed to be driven.
they’re to blame IT STARTS AT THE TOP YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PATHETIC TRAINING TAKING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OFF PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NOT BE RIDING BICYCLES AROUND LONDON! Never mind different story! ENDEX