Driver cpc - what do you want?

[djw]

tachograph:
The EU directive that required member states of the EU to initiate DCPC training only requires 35 hours training every five years but you want to make the requirement stricter by requiring 7 hours per year, what happens if a driver misses a year does he have to stop driving commercially

Any unilateral tightening of this requirement by the UK would be unenforceable:

• European Union law is supreme over UK law in areas of EU competence- section 2 European Communities Act 1972 (the key UK legislation that makes EU law effective in the UK)

• Article 4(3) Treaty on European Union (Member States must take all measures necessary to implement Treaty objectives)
• Article 288 Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (Directives are binding as to the result to be achieved but the form of implementation is a matter for Member States)
• Van Gend en Loos (the European Economic Community is ‘a new legal order’, EU law is supreme over earlier domestic law)
• Costa v ENEL (EU law is supreme over domestic law, irrespective of date)
• Simmenthal (domestic law is of no effect to the extent of any conflict with EU law)
• the Factortame cases (which cemented the complete supremacy of EU law over UK law)
  [/:m]- The courts are obliged to interpret national law in line with the EU law it purports to implement, so far as that is possible (so-called indirect effect - Von Colson and Marleasing)[/:m]
• Ultimately the UK would have to pay compensation to anyone who suffered loss because of the UK introducing an implementation of the Directive that does not faithfully follow EU law (so-called State liability - Francovich, Brasserie du Pecheur / Factortame (No. 3) and R v HM Treasury, ex parte British Telecommunications)[/*:m][/list:u]

As can be seen, European Union law has a whole system built around it that attempts to ensure uniform implementation across the EU. (How well this works is a matter of debate, however!)

Solly:
Reading DIRECTIVE 2003/59/EC can you confirm that Annex I of that directive contains all the modules “Minimum Qualification and Training Requirements” that can be taken to qualify for the DCPC?
If so… I think you would agree… the content of some of the modules haven’t been made apparent to some drivers.

Annex I of Directive 2003/59 contains the syllabus for initial driver CPC. How well the Module 2 and Module 4 tests cover that material is a matter of debate, but the majority of LGV and PCV drivers at present will have acquired rights rather than having taken the initial DCPC tests.

dieseldave:

shep532:
But - look at ADR. 5 years before you have to retake it … I think that is rediculous as legislation often changes.

Yep, that’s right… ADR is completely binned and re-published every two years, and it’s as regular as clockwork.

ADR training, like all training to regulations, is teaching you how to apply the key principles of the regulations. There comes a cut-off after which some form of ongoing training is necessary - in ADR this is the five-yearly refresher - but the onus is on the drivers, DGSAs and others involved to apply the latest version of the regulations at all times. If you need to check something, you’d look it up anyway - you can’t possibly commit every detail of a complex set of regulations such as ADR to memory.

Lawyers don’t have to completely requalify every few years - which is just as well as it takes a minimum of four or five years (accelerated law degree in two years, one year’s postgraduate vocational training, a year’s pupillage for a trainee barrister or two years employment as a trainee solicitor).

[shep532]

Right - I’m off to watch The Apprentic now See you lot tomorrow

I would like to say though - I am very impressed at the quality of feedback from you guys so far. No silly comments or ■■■■ like that and some really good stuff. I’m chuffed

I can’t wait tp present this lot to some JAUPT guru

[stevieboy308]

gogzy:
I would like to see some sort of course where you can take a truck to its limits and what to do in a skid etc like a skid pan sort of thing.

or is it just me who has a thing for taking anything with wheels on it sideways?

you’ve not had a truck sideway? what’s up with ya man

[dieseldave]

djw:

dieseldave:

shep532:
But - look at ADR. 5 years before you have to retake it … I think that is rediculous as legislation often changes.

Yep, that’s right… ADR is completely binned and re-published every two years, and it’s as regular as clockwork.

ADR training, like all training to regulations, is teaching you how to apply the key principles of the regulations. There comes a cut-off after which some form of ongoing training is necessary - in ADR this is the five-yearly refresher - but the onus is on the drivers, DGSAs and others involved to apply the latest version of the regulations at all times. If you need to check something, you’d look it up anyway - you can’t possibly commit every detail of a complex set of regulations such as ADR to memory.

Hi djw,

Without hijacking shep532’s post, by far the vast majority of the responsibility for ADR compliance rests with the consignor and the carrier. For UK domestic dangerous goods transport, there’s very little ADR compliance responsibility resting on an employed driver.
A DGSA also has to re-qualify every 5 years, just like a driver.

[happydaze]

stevieboy308:

gogzy:
I would like to see some sort of course where you can take a truck to its limits and what to do in a skid etc like a skid pan sort of thing.

or is it just me who has a thing for taking anything with wheels on it sideways?

you’ve not had a truck sideway? what’s up with ya man

Yeah, you ain’t driven till you’ve had the Topline sliding and the Chereau on three wheels!

[war1974]

the other thing with the dcpc is that wages will still not rise public opinion of drivers will not improve either so yet again we have more ■■■■■■■■ to attend and fork out for with little in the way of reward or recognition.
i am totally against it and cant see how you can spend 30mins teaching an experienced driver about how to fill in a tacho card its pretty self explanatory name…start date… even if you work on manual filling in and changing vehicles its not rocket science!

30 minutes how to check tyres
30 minutes how to eat healthily - what does this have to do with improving professionalism?
30 minutes hoe to be polite to customers - fair enough i know a few who could do with this
30 minutes about OCRS
30 minutes about speed limits - so your driving in a 30 what is the speed limit?
30 minutes about fuel efficient driving - worth while if practical but more and more vehicles are becoming auto!
30 minutes about alcohol in the work place
30 minutes about fire extinguishers
30 minutes about security of the load (from thieves I mean) - let them have it its not worth a kicking for if they want it they will have it!
30 minutes about straps and chains
30 minutes about not smoking in cabs - it illegal wont take long to explain that
30 minutes about documentation
30 minutes about stopping bleeding

none of this has made me think its a good idea

[denis_f]

Dave55:

Happydaze:
I want to actually learn something I didn’t already know

I agree. I was looking to do a First Aid sort of thing, but is not available. Also, I think the courses ‘overlap’ too much.

I’ve done first aid as part of DCPC , trying to get a telehandler course sorted this year

If you choose the right courses it can b useful

[shep532]

war1974:
none of this has made me think its a good idea

The idea of the ficticious course was to show how sily the rules are. A chaotic course like that’d be no good but fits the given criteria and would gain approval.

[starfighter]

My tuppence’s worth.

I agree with your point that retaking the same course five times is daft. However even if you amended the system to stop you being booked on the same course ID number again there is nothing to stop a driver from taking a different drivers hours course from a different provider(s).

There should be a requirement for “core” courses, Drivers Hours and a Health and Safety course. These two should be drawn up between the government and the industry and standardised, so no matter where you take the course it is (in theory) identical. These two courses would account for 14 hours, and the remaining 21 would be “free choice” for the driver.

You need to allow drivers and firms the flexibility to implement programmes relevant to their operations. For instance, if I was running a company that used Hiabs and Moffets then I would want to send my drivers on their refresher courses for this equipment and have it count for the DCPC. Likewise ADR, and the firms in and out of quarries needing EPIC cards, Airside driving. As I understand it virtually any transport related training can be approved for DCPC purposes and this flexibility needs to be retained.

[solly]

@shep532

TY you answered my question.

djw:

Solly:
Reading DIRECTIVE 2003/59/EC can you confirm that Annex I of that directive contains all the modules “Minimum Qualification and Training Requirements” that can be taken to qualify for the DCPC?
If so… I think you would agree… the content of some of the modules haven’t been made apparent to some drivers.

Annex I of Directive 2003/59 contains the syllabus for initial driver CPC. How well the Module 2 and Module 4 tests cover that material is a matter of debate, but the majority of LGV and PCV drivers at present will have acquired rights rather than having taken the initial DCPC tests.

Ah! I see. So the above EU Directive is for new drivers only. Got ya. TY.

[gogzy]

stevieboy308:

gogzy:
I would like to see some sort of course where you can take a truck to its limits and what to do in a skid etc like a skid pan sort of thing.

or is it just me who has a thing for taking anything with wheels on it sideways?

you’ve not had a truck sideway? what’s up with ya man

of course i havnt

[nd888_bigj]

In 2019 when everyone has at least held a DCPC for 5 years the dept of transport VOSA the RHA the FTA and any other relevant bodies, groups, agencys,ect ect should collate all the figures regarding tacho infringments , walk round checks ,loading, ect ect and compare them to the years before the introduction of the DCPC and see if it has made any difference to standards within the industry.or is it like a lot on here claim that its a waste of time.

[ady1]

shep532:
OK - bit of a daft question 'cos the most common answer is going to be “Scrap it” But … I run a JAUPT Approved DCPC Training Centre and I think the current DCPC setup is less than perfect and needs some attention.

It’s OK drivers coming on this excellent forum and voicing their opinions - but where does that get you and what does it achieve?

As I have said - I would like to see some changes made and I would like to get feedback from Drivers on here and see what (apart from scrap it - 'cos that aint gonna happen) you would like to see. My intention is then to take that information, put it into a presentable format - get together with other JAUPT Approved Centres and take it to the people that need to know, whether that be JAUPT, DSA or some MP(s) somewhere.

If as drivers (and yes I have been a driver and who knows, may become one again) we are going to be stuck with this DCPC then let’s try to have some kind of influence over it and see if we can’t make it something like it should be.

If you just want to moan and groan or belittle Trainers … Please go start you own ‘Trainer Bashing’ thread and go air your opinions in there. But if you have some valid points or a valid criticism, feedback etc then put it into writing here and I’ll gather it all up and start from there.

It all may come to nothing and I never get to speak to the powers that be … but I don’t give in easily, I like to have my say and certainly don’t shy away from confrontation - so I reckon I’ll enjoy passing on all your feedback - but it needs to be sensible guys

So what changes would you like to see?

I’ll start the ball rolling with 4 off my wish list;

1. Stop allowing courses to be repeated ‘willynilly’ and place some sort of timescale on a course (i.e Drivers Hours rules 24 months)

2. Make it compulsory to complete a minimum of 1 course per year (or 12 months)

3. Introduce some sort of testing or assessment of trainees. Maybe not an exam with a pass/fail as such as in ADR but at least have Training Centres give a test or assessment and then file the results away so they can be checked or monitored at a later date

4. Rate/Score training centres when they have been audited and publish these scores (and the audit reports) on the JAUPT website allowing drivers/employers to select a training service based on merit rather than having to try them to find out if they are any good

5. Make the whole DCPC thing MORE of the employers responsibility than the drivers. Not sure how that’d work - not thought about that bit yet but I know I hate that it is the drivers responsibility.

So that’s my top 5 things I’d like to see looked at.

Now before anyone has a go just 'cos I’m a trainer and what do I know etc (heard it all before) - this isn’t about ME or the other trainers. The training centres and trainers just work within the framework and rules given to them and most of the real issues aren’t their doing. This is about the ORGANISATION, the RULES and the REGULATIONS

No I’m not trying to sell my services … ask me for a booking on a course and I’ll say no I’m just a little fed up of the moans and groans - where’s the positive stuff? Where’s the useful feedback that can make things better?

Lets keep it sensible. If you can’t … if you’re fingers are already hovering over the keyboard ready to vent your anger at this insult to professional drivers that they call the DCPC - just take a deep breath, sit back and think for a few minutes. What can be done to make it better?

If the only thing you can come up with is SCRAP IT - then at least give a decent answer as to why rather than just “Because I’ve been doing this job 20 years, what can you teach me you’ve never even driven”

Thanks
Pete

we were asked at the end of our course to put down how the course could be improved-my mate put down have the dinner break at HOOTERS ,i ■■■■■■ myself,but yea if you want to improve it HOOTERS for my dinner break

[fuse]

What is it about trainers who come on here and have a dig at people who have managed without the dcp for years , I have been at it 40 years I am not KNOW ALL but know enough to do my job to a high standard to both the vehicle I drive and the public I share the road with.I have done the cpc not because even though I will only need it for a month or so before I finish, I actualy enjoy the disccusion and other drivers input…allways remember the truck is not a space shuttle or some kind of space craft, it is a truck easy to drive, and requiring no where near the skill to drive as those from the sixties and early seventys.

[shep532]

ady1:
we were asked at the end of our course to put down how the course could be improved-my mate put down have the dinner break at HOOTERS ,i ■■■■■■ myself,but yea if you want to improve it HOOTERS for my dinner break

Had that one before but nobody wanted to pay the taxi fare to get there

[shep532]

fuse:
What is it about trainers who come on here and have a dig at people who have managed without the dcp for years , I have been at it 40 years I am not KNOW ALL but know enough to do my job to a high standard to both the vehicle I drive and the public I share the road with.I have done the cpc not because even though I will only need it for a month or so before I finish, I actualy enjoy the disccusion and other drivers input…allways remember the truck is not a space shuttle or some kind of space craft, it is a truck easy to drive, and requiring no where near the skill to drive as those from the sixties and early seventys.

I don’t believe I have ‘had a dig’ and I certainly hope i haven’t because that isn’t my intention.

However - the reason it does happen is because - a trainer will likely meet hundreds/thousands of drivers. On average in a week I will deal with around 30 - 50 drivers. In amongst those 30 - 50 I will guarantee I will come across a ‘few’ with the “what can you teach me” or “You’re not even a driver” attitude and to put it bluntly - these tend to be the ones that do need a refresher or pointer in the right direction and the general attitude towards the trainer and the course kind of gets to you after a while Especially when that driver is clearly wrong, misguided or a plain idiot - but in front of a class I just can’t say that and have to find a way of trying to correct him without him becoming the joke of the class.

However - I also come across plenty - in fact a higher proportion than above - of drivers who clearly know their stuff, are professional, courteous and a pleasure to get on with. They don’t arrive with an ‘attitude’ and seem to have an open mind. Exactly as your post has said you “enjoy the disccusion and other drivers input”

My favourite bit in any training session is learning something from the drivers. I really enjoy seeing someone else’s view on things, hearing their experiences which I then ‘steal’ and pass onto others. it all helps spread experience across the industry.

What better opportunity is there to get 10 to 15 drivers together and discuss important topics rather than just ■■■■■ about the ■■■■■ pay, ■■■■■ conditions and stupid planners but the trainer is there to keep it all on the subject in question.

If you are one of those drivers that does know a lot about the job, does know the rules (correctly) and has plenty of experience to share … it is unfortunate that you don’t get to do so. You are busy doing your job and don’t have the time and opportunity to go and help the lad who can’t couple, or doesn’t know something or is getting wound up because he doesn’t get this daily rest thing etc etc. I am sure on the other hand you don’t want to go and help the ■■■■ over there who blatantly doesn’t give a toss he’s just bent the legs etc.

I think the DCPC is an opportunity for some of that experience sharing to happen. if the trainer just stands there reading off the screen and ignores the participants - he aint doin his job

[war1974]

shep532:

war1974:
none of this has made me think its a good idea

The idea of the ficticious course was to show how sily the rules are. A chaotic course like that’d be no good but fits the given criteria and would gain approval.

yeah i get that but things that are covered are just as irrelavent and pointless none of what i have seen has made me change my mind on it. 1st aid and adr are about the only things that i can see being of any use and even then i wonder how long it will be before some poor driver saves a life and gets sued because he didnt do x y or z right . the trouble is the whole dcpd is ideal for newly qualified drivers but for experienced drivers it is like trying to teach old dogs old tricks! and if enough drivers dont do it the government will have to change it

[speedy_duck]

That’s lovely Pete

But I have to pay for that, I can get all of that from talking to other drivers, and TM’s and bosses and customers anyway, and I won’t get paid while I have the privelege of paying for it.

Clearly from your original post you know that the whole thing is deeply flawed and should be scrapped and re-thought out.

If it is to be for new drivers, then the training and testing should change.

If drivers are to have ongoing training, then the actual training should be established prior to implementing the requirement not the other way around.

To allow training companies the option of setting their own subjects and curriculum is ridiculous and to no end and for no purpose, is pointless.

I believe no other industry would accept ongoing training on this basis.

If training is to be meaningful then a goal has to be set. That could be to ‘re-take’ tests for instance (or something similar). At least that would be meaningful.

Pete, I asked if you had considered asking those who dreamt up the requirement for their thoughts on the matter. I was thinking the politicians, not the DSA or JAUPT.

SD

[shep532]

war1974:

shep532:

war1974:
none of this has made me think its a good idea

The idea of the ficticious course was to show how sily the rules are. A chaotic course like that’d be no good but fits the given criteria and would gain approval.

yeah i get that but things that are covered are just as irrelavent and pointless none of what i have seen has made me change my mind on it. 1st aid and adr are about the only things that i can see being of any use and even then i wonder how long it will be before some poor driver saves a life and gets sued because he didnt do x y or z right . the trouble is the whole dcpd is ideal for newly qualified drivers but for experienced drivers it is like trying to teach old dogs old tricks! and if enough drivers dont do it the government will have to change it

I agree completely that the scheme is good for new drivers. But of course new drivers will become old drivers

I cannot agree the ‘things covered’ are irrelevant and pointless to everyone but yes - may be pointless to some. May I be so bold as to say I probably meet and speak to more drivers than you? I’m guessing I do. I know from my experience that currently a high percentage need ‘reminding’ about some things and simply don’t know other things at all.

First aid is an excellent skill to have, even for your own family. One of my first aid trainers has recently had his father die. He had a heart attack one morning shortly after breakfast. His wife didn’t know what to do and faffed around trying to find her mobile to call her son - who was a first aider. Dad died. Had Mum have known first aid - might not have happened.

As for teaching old dogs old tricks - Nah! DCPC is checking the old dog can still do the old tricks, re-confirming how some of the old tricks work and then showing them some new ones

war1974:
and if enough drivers dont do it the government will have to change it

Do you really believe that? But even if the Government were of a mind to just say “Nah … it’s OK lads ignore us and carry on driving” there are more drivers that will just get on with it than won’t. Forecasts are a driver shortage of around 30% by 2014. Where do those 30% (that’s around 220,000 people) go to work? OK some won’t need to work but a high percentage probably have mortgages etc. Can you see yourself working in a call centre making cold calls to try and sell photocopiers? can you see yourself working a 16 hour a week shift in tesco on minimum wage? Security guard anybody? I’m not saying any of this is right - the whole wage thing in the UK ■■■■■ but … it aint gonna change.

At the moment there is a lot of ‘same old’ DCPC courses around but I think this will change in time. Specialist courses will appear. problem at the moment is lack of demand. Who would develop a course if they have nobody to pay to take it?

And this is what I am trying to ask for and so far not many replies. WHAT COURSES DO YOU WANT TO SEE?

Someone has already said HIAB, CPCS, EPIC, FORK LIFT and a few other existing qualifications that can double up as DCPC - so what else?

Here’s one I’ve come up with

SPEED AWARENESS - get caught speeding in a goods vehicle and the speed awareness course you go on counts as DCPC
There again - why not just run speed awareness as a DCPC course even if you haven’t been caught speeding

or what about
BASIC VEHICLE MAINTENANCE - Going a little more in depth than walk round checks. Bulb changing, fuse changing. In my years as a manager i came across a lot of drivers that don’t/won’t do that kind of thing. YOU might know this stuff but some don’t

[shep532]

Speedy Duck:
That’s lovely Pete

But I have to pay for that, I can get all of that from talking to other drivers, and TM’s and bosses and customers anyway, and I won’t get paid while I have the privelege of paying for it.

Good point but not the same is it? I know lads have sat in a class really quiet but you can see they are taking it all in. These are the ones that DON’T or WON’T ask. they just listen. The above works for you but not for others. Everyone learns in a different way

Speedy Duck:
Clearly from your original post you know that the whole thing is deeply flawed and should be scrapped and re-thought out.

Not DEEPLY … but it wants a bit of re-working, however at the moment it does a job that I for one think needs doing for SOME drivers

Speedy Duck:
If it is to be for new drivers, then the training and testing should change.

It is different for new drivers. The initial DCPC is a pass or fail.

Speedy Duck:
If drivers are to have ongoing training, then the actual training should be established prior to implementing the requirement not the other way around.

To allow training companies the option of setting their own subjects and curriculum is ridiculous and to no end and for no purpose, is pointless.

This has been done. there are three sections in the regulations that stipulate what the training must cover. JAUPT audits then clarify this is the case. Courses that don’t do this are stopped. The approval system kind of means a course that doesn’t fit the criteria won’t get through to approval.

Take a look at Schools - they have a basic curriculum and some schools just do that. The ‘better’ schools strive to exceed that and go beyond the norm. Some traineing centres offer very basic training - the basics. Some go a step beyond and give better value for money.

The way the courses are at the moment allows for much more scope and flexibility of courses. it is all about finding the right course.

Even if the authorities set the course content - you would still have bad and good delivery of the courses.

Speedy Duck:
I believe no other industry would accept ongoing training on this basis.

If training is to be meaningful then a goal has to be set. That could be to ‘re-take’ tests for instance (or something similar). At least that would be meaningful.

There is a goal. Attend for 7 hours (I personally don’t like the 7 hour thing).
The course has already passed a form of approval and will be monitored via audits and course feedback. if at the end of a course every driver that attended filled in the feedback form as ‘crap’ - these forms have to be made available to the authorities - the course would soon be changed and improved.

What you probably haen’t seen is the Quality Assurance checks that go on when approving a DCPC centre. My QA policy is a pretty large document that details how, as a company, I will maintain standards. JAUPT then check that things are being done as per this policy. the policy is designed to ensure standards are maintained. Unfortunately some companies write one thing and do another. they will soon go out of business

The current driving test is a fixed format isn’t it? All driving instructors know the ultimate goal and standards, yet there is nothing laid down about HOW learners are taught (is there?) and some do good and some do bad. This will always be the case.

Speedy Duck:
Pete, I asked if you had considered asking those who dreamt up the requirement for their thoughts on the matter. I was thinking the politicians, not the DSA or JAUPT.

That is my intention but … Nobody could simply go to Government and say “This scheme is rubbish” what we have to do is say “This scheme is rubbish - BECAUSE” and then detail why it is rubbish and to be honest a lot of the ‘argument’ so far is weak. A good case needs to be built. it is about putting forward quality suggestions of what would be better

All schemes will evolve. Look at the driving test - changed quite a bit really. As an example the motorbike test. I passed mine riding round the block in Manchester waiting for the guy to jump out in front of me for the emergency stop. Look at that test now - and they’re changing it again because what they brought in a few years ago was crap.

If the powers that be spent all the time drawing up plans the scheme would never get launched. They put the basics in place - launch it and then develop it based on feedback.

lets get that feedback together and give it to them.

pete