Mike-C:
ROG:
The RTD has no max daily working time limit
Is 100% correct unless someone can find something in the RTD rules that I have missed
The RTD limits you to the provisions of the Community Drivers hours legislation whether or not you fall under such legislation in its own right .
Thank you Mike-C
Mike-C:
ROG:
The RTD has no max daily working time limit
Is 100% correct unless someone can find something in the RTD rules that I have missed
The RTD limits you to the provisions of the Community Drivers hours legislation whether or not you fall under such legislation in its own right .
I know what you are saying mike - the RTD only kicks in when the EU regs do so therefore a limit is imposed by default
ROG:
The RTD has no max daily working time limit
Is 100% correct unless someone can find something in the RTD rules that I have missed
Rog have an other read of your link and you will see this bit
Rest periods
This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum
8.–(1) In the application of these Regulations, the provisions of the Community Drivers’ Hours Regulation relating to daily and weekly rest shall apply to all mobile workers to whom they do not apply under that Regulation as they apply to other mobile workers under that Regulation.
But it still doesn’t impose an actual limit on work - it imposes regulations regarding rest which by default limit the work
I would agree with you if the regulations said something like “Shall not work more than 15 hours” or something like that. They don’t = they say shall take this much rest in this period.
We all know what it means
shep532:
But it still doesn’t impose an actual limit on work - it imposes regulations regarding rest which by default limit the workI would agree with you if the regulations said something like “Shall not work more than 15 hours” or something like that. They don’t = they say shall take this much rest in this period.
We all know what it means
if it put a limit on your working day in the RTD it would have to tell you how much rest you have to take,to be able to calculate it.
But it does not, because its in the EU regs, it tells you,
there is no were in the EU regs that actually tell your length of your duty it only tell you your rests you have to take. and that how a 15 hour duty comes from or a 13 hour duty comes from.
delboytwo:
shep532:
But it still doesn’t impose an actual limit on work - it imposes regulations regarding rest which by default limit the workI would agree with you if the regulations said something like “Shall not work more than 15 hours” or something like that. They don’t = they say shall take this much rest in this period.
We all know what it means
if it put a limit on your working day in the RTD it would have to tell you how much rest you have to take,to be able to calculate it.
But it does not, because its in the EU regs, it tells you,
there is no were in the EU regs that actually tell your length of your duty it only tell you your rests you have to take. and that how a 15 hour duty comes from or a 13 hour duty comes from.
I thought that was what I said 
Was gonna explain again but cant be arsed, its been covered before. Use the search and all will become clear.
delboytwo:
shep532:
But it still doesn’t impose an actual limit on work - it imposes regulations regarding rest which by default limit the workI would agree with you if the regulations said something like “Shall not work more than 15 hours” or something like that. They don’t = they say shall take this much rest in this period.
We all know what it means
if it put a limit on your working day in the RTD it would have to tell you how much rest you have to take,to be able to calculate it.
But it does not, because its in the EU regs, it tells you,
there is no were in the EU regs that actually tell your length of your duty it only tell you your rests you have to take. and that how a 15 hour duty comes from or a 13 hour duty comes from.
It surprises me how many drivers will post about these 15 hour days as if they are the norm, but the same drivers say they will not reduce their rest periods at any cost 
ROG:
I know what you are saying mike - the RTD only kicks in when the EU regs do so therefore a limit is imposed by default
As far as i understand it the RTD applies to drivers mates, and crews (i.e Bin men) non of which come directly under the EU regs (apart from a minimum age limit). So this transfers the Community driving regs to them for the purposes of rest. Thats the way i read it anyway.
In SIMPLE terms as requested…
delboytwo:
shep532:
delboytwo:
I have been going on about a post Rog said not the OPThe RTD has no max daily working time limit
The RTD does not have a max daily working time limit
yes it does you work under EU regs which as and therefor the RTD presume you know your duty limits for the day
No it doesn’t. The EU regs (effectively, by virtue of enforcing a minimum rest period) have a daily working time limit. The RTD does not have any daily working time limit.
I don’t know how many people you are going to need to point this out until you realise you are wrong.
They are different sets of rules. The fact that we have to obey both of them does not mean that they are the same thing.
Paul
delboytwo:
PaulExample
Driver drives under EU drivers regs as 1 15 hour day left drives for 1 hour parks up for 10 hours on POA how much other work can he do be for he as to take a rest
Answer
4
I assume by that example you are trying to somehow prove that the EU rules have precedence over the RT(WT)R rules.
If that is the case, here’s another example:
Start shift.
Other work 4h.
Drive 2h.
Now at this point there is nothing in the EU rules that say you must take a break, in fact they will let you drive another 2.5h before you need to take a break. However the RT(WT)R says you must have a break of at least 15 minutes at this point.
So by your argument in this example the RT(WT)R have precedence over the EU rules.
As I have said before though this argument is nonsense. Neither set of rules has priority. We must obey both.
Paul
Your still not reading what we been discussing about, the discussion is about some thing that ,
Rog wrote in an early post he said the is no limits on duty in RTD but as I have been saying there is a limit because to work under RTD you have to be under EU regs and in EU regs there a limit to how much duty you can do.
With regards your last post if you were not under EU regs the RTD would not mater and you would be under the working time regs instead and as there can be opted out of no break would be required.
And as you no that 15 minutes would count towards you break for EU regs so if that driver did do another 2.5 hours drive the driver would only have to take 30 to cover the rest of his break for driving and RTD.
repton:
The EU regs (effectively, by virtue of enforcing a minimum rest period) have a daily working time limit. The RTD does not have any daily working time limit.
The RTD confers the rest requirements to the EU regs for ANYONE who comes under it, so its either a limit or its not.
Myself i believe its a limit. If by any scope of the imagination (as above) you believe the EU has a rest requirement that effectivley imposes a limit, then the same should follow for the RTD. Everyones’s arguing about the sematics of the issue. i.e it does not actually say it. Well true enough it does not actually say it, but it 100% makes you a limit. But the fact is you cannot work anymore than what the EU driving regs restrict you to, minus your breaks along the way. However anyone wants to word it, there is limitations to what you can do.
But no ones saying, right? !!! 
found this so it should clear this up.
The main provisions of the 2005 Regulations are as follows
Weekly working time must not exceed an average of 48 hours per week over the reference
period. A maximum working time of 60 hours can be performed in any single week providing the average 48-hour limit is not exceeded.
Night work: if night work is performed, working time must not exceed 10 hours in any 24-hour
period. Night time is the period between 00.00 and 04.00 for goods vehicles and between 01.00
and 05.00 for passenger vehicles. The 10-hour limit may be exceeded if this is permitted under a
collective or workforce agreement.
Breaks:
— Mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break.
— If your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes.
— If your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes.
— Breaks should be of at least 15 minutes’ duration.
Rest: the regulations are the same as the EU or AETR drivers’ hours rules.
Record keeping: records need to be kept for two years after the period in question.
The reference period for calculating the 48-hour week is normally 17 weeks, but it can be extended
to 26 weeks if this is permitted under a collective or workforce agreement. There is no ‘opt-out’ for
individuals wishing to work longer than an average 48-hour week, but breaks and ‘periods of availability’
do not count as working time.
Generally speaking, a period of availability (POA) is waiting time, the duration of which is known about
in advance. Examples of what might count as a POA are accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing
or waiting while other workers load/unload your vehicle. For mobile workers driving in a team, a POA
would also include time spent sitting next to the driver while the vehicle is in motion (unless the mobile
worker is taking a break or performing other work i.e. navigation).
so as the rest are EU that means there is a limit on the amount of work you can do under RTD
THE END 
Mike-C:
The RTD confers the rest requirements to the EU regs for ANYONE who comes under it, so its either a limit or its not.
I’ve just had another read of the rules and it seems it has been me (amongst others) who have been spouting nonsense as the RT(WT)R do indeed confer EU rest requirements on anyone who fall under them.
So, as the RT(WT)R confer EU rests on anyone who falls under them presumably that means that people on work that falls under domestic rules also now have to stick to EU rest rules?
I still stick to my point about neither one taking priority though.
Paul
repton:
Mike-C:
The RTD confers the rest requirements to the EU regs for ANYONE who comes under it, so its either a limit or its not.I’ve just had another read of the rules and it seems it has been me (amongst others) who have been spouting nonsense as the RT(WT)R do indeed confer EU rest requirements on anyone who fall under them.
So, as the RT(WT)R confer EU rests on anyone who falls under them presumably that means that people on work that falls under domestic rules also now have to stick to EU rest rules?
I still stick to my point about neither one taking priority though.
Paul
Hi Paul
Domestic regs come under Working Time regs 1998 which can be opted out,and not RTD a driver under domestic regs can only work for 11 hours in a day and only driver for 10 hours there is no rest requirements at the moment, just a saying but the powers are trying to bring them in line with EU regs
just be looking on the web and found this.
For “mobile workers” who drive goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes and those who drive passenger vehicles with more than nine seats (other than those used on regular services where the route does not exceed 50 kilometres), there are two significant pieces of EU legislation: Regulation EC/561/2006, commonly known as “EU Drivers’ Hours Rules; and Directive 2002/15/EC which is commonly known as the Road Transport Directive (RTD). The provisions sit alongside each other, unless they conflict, in which case the EU drivers’ rules take precedence. Self-employed drivers were excluded from this legislation, specifically until 23 March 2009. Following disagreement in Europe about what how to resolve this situation, they remain excluded for the time being. Non-mobile workers and those who drive vehicles not covered by Regulation EC/561/2006 are covered by the provisions of the Working Time Directive of 19931 as implemented in the UK by the Working Time Regulations 1998, (SI 1998/1833), as amended. This note explains the provisions of these rules further.
ROG:
shep - is the quote correct in your last post at 8.21?
Possibly That’s how I read it. Check it out and let me know if I’m wrong again 
This whole thing is just about semantics.
The EU rules do not mention anywhere a limit to working time. they set rest requirements in a 24 hour period from the end of the last rest. there is no offence I know of for exceeding 15 hours of duty. the offence is insufficient rest or exceeding a daily driving period. if there is no offence for exceeding 15 hours duty - there cannot be a rule about it in the first place.
Check the graduated fixed penalties list. There are penalties for exceeding 9 hours driving, 10 hours driving, 56 hours in a week, 90 hours in a fotrnight - but none for 13 hours duty or 15 hours duty. there is one for Insufficient daily rest in 24 hour period and this is a scaled penalty based on the amount of rest - not the amount of duty.
Therefore - I could work a 16 hour duty period and I would only be fined £60 for having rest of less than 9 but more than 8 hours.
if there was a fine for exceeding 15 hours of duty I would accept the rules set a limit. But they do not.
It is all just a trick question.