7 Cards in One Week... Legal or Not? [MERGED]

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
281

Mike-C:

Davey Driver:
a day is defined as a 24 hr period not a shift.

Correct, and we know a new 24 hour period commences everytime you resume you duty after a weekly or daily rest period. So i’m thinking you have to take a weekly rest after six of these 24 hour periods. And that is in keeping with the previous statement of …“after no more than six driving periods”.

I know what you mean Mike, but its not 6 driving periods its 6 days, put it this way, you can work 5 hr shifts then take your daily rest, how many shifts can you get in in 6 days?

I also thought it was 6 driving periods then a weekly rest but I had it Clarified, It’s definitely 6 days

282

Is this thread still going on!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I was going to pop by the Trucknet Stand tomorrow at Truckfest and say hello, but i’m afraid i might get a bash in the head after all this!! :laughing: :laughing:

So, Basically its legal to do it in the UK, but not in Europe, just to be safe…?

283

BuzzardBoy:
So, Basically its legal to do it in the UK, but not in Europe, just to be safe…?

YES

And I would keep it that way until a definitive is either given from the EU or individual EU Countries.

284

ROG:

BuzzardBoy:
So, Basically its legal to do it in the UK, but not in Europe, just to be safe…?

YES

And I would keep it that way until a definitive is either given from the EU or individual EU Countries.

Which unless there is a court ruling will be the 12th of never. We won’t get a definitive ruling on this, the best we will get is information on how each country is likely to view it.

One other thing just to prolong this whole thing.

Under the old rules we had a court ruling regarding 4.5 hours driving, 45 minutes of break resets the drive time clock to zero and it isn’t a rolling 4.5 hours. That ruling still applies under the new regulations.

Under the old rules we had a court ruling regarding travelling time to collect a vehicle from somewhere other than the operating centre, the Skills Coaches case. That ruling still applies under the new regulations.

Under the old rules we had a court ruling regarding what is a 24-hour period and how how many shifts you can do between weekly rest periods, Mike posted the link, yet that one seems not to apply under the new regulations. How does that work then? :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

285

Coffeeholic:
One other thing just to prolong this whole thing.

:smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

Coffeeholic:
Under the old rules we had a court ruling regarding 4.5 hours driving, 45 minutes of break resets the drive time clock to zero and it isn’t a rolling 4.5 hours. That ruling still applies under the new regulations.

Under the old rules we had a court ruling regarding travelling time to collect a vehicle from somewhere other than the operating centre, the Skills Coaches case. That ruling still applies under the new regulations.

Coffeeholic:
Under the old rules we had a court ruling regarding what is a 24-hour period and how how many shifts you can do between weekly rest periods, Mike posted the link, yet that one seems not to apply under the new regulations. How does that work then? :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

Would the definitions as to what regulations each referred to be in the detail of each ruling :question:
If yes, then it would need a legal expert to read each one and point out the differences - do we have such a member on this site :question:

286

ROG:
Would the definitions as to what regulations each referred to be in the detail of each ruling :question:

They are very clearly . Also note that when rulings or adjustments/changes have been made they are in the ammendments section of the legislation. No such ammendment for the meaning of ‘daily driving period’,‘day’', or ‘24 hour period’ , they all mean the same and are clearly intended to do so. They have not been removed at all. ‘driving period’ as opposed to ‘daily driving period’ is also clarified.

ROG:
If yes, then it would need a legal expert to read each one and point out the differences - do we have such a member on this site :question:

Well i’m not a legal expert but i can read and understand it clearly. You mentioned earlier in the thread about ‘intent’ of legislation. The old wording was ‘after no more than six daily driving periods’ and there has been no intent to change it, infact it has been clarified.
Article 8

  1. Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
    previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
    have taken a new daily rest period.

This statement alone clarifies that a 24 hour period commences at the end of our rest, weekly or daily.
The crux of this debate is that no one is going to complain about being allowed by VOSA to complete a 7th card/chart/shift as it may just very well be the difference between getting home that weekend, or, as in this case catch a ferry. Until such time as a court case (even though there’s already been one :wink: ) they (VOSA and the rest of the EU) can all interpret them pretty much how they like, although in the interests of clarity they should all be singing from the same hymm sheet.
Put it this way,if you where done for it (in the EU states )you would not get a solicitor on a no win no fee bonus to get you off it :smiley:

287

brit pete:
and what about the tachograph unit with room for 7
disks, not sure but was last being used in south america

:open_mouth: Blimey Pete, I’d forgotten all about that kind of tacho until you reminded me.

The last time I saw a multi-disc tacho was in a Swedish truck in the early 80s.
IIRC, the tacho discs came in a kind of cassette and they worked a bit like an old record player.

288

i mite f found the anwer to this

i think you can only use 6 cards and i and baseing this on this

  1. Drivers shall use the record sheets every day on which they are driving, starting from the moment they take over the vehicle. The record sheet shall not be withdrawn before the end of the daily working period unless its withdrawal is otherwise authorized. No record sheet may be used to cover a period longer than that for which it is intended. When, as a result of being away from the vehicle, a driver is unable to use the equipment fitted to the vehicle, the periods of time indicated in paragraph 3, second indent (b), (c) and (d) below shall be entered on the sheet, either manually, by automatic recording or other means, legibly and without dirtying the sheet.

and as we know a day is 24 hours so that would mean 6 card

you can tell me to take a run and jump if i started it all over again :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

289

delboytwo:
i mite f found the anwer to this

i think you can only use 6 cards and i and baseing this on this

  1. Drivers shall use the record sheets every day on which they are driving, starting from the moment they take over the vehicle. The record sheet shall not be withdrawn before the end of the daily working period unless its withdrawal is otherwise authorized. No record sheet may be used to cover a period longer than that for which it is intended. When, as a result of being away from the vehicle, a driver is unable to use the equipment fitted to the vehicle, the periods of time indicated in paragraph 3, second indent (b), (c) and (d) below shall be entered on the sheet, either manually, by automatic recording or other means, legibly and without dirtying the sheet.

and as we know a day is 24 hours so that would mean 6 card

you can tell me to take a run and jump if i started it all over again :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

I know the answer to it !! if we assume that each card is seperated with a daily rest period, then six indeed is all you are allowed.

290

There is one thing no one has picked up on and emphasised yet, which in my opinion nails the whole 144 hours thing, and I’ve been waiting a couple of weeks to see if anyone would do so. To pass the time while waiting I’ve been arguing against ROG just to keep him copying and pasting like a mad thing, not because I believed him to be wrong but just because it amuses me. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: I count extra points if he uses different colours. :stuck_out_tongue:

If you read the regulations it says:

A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.

And to me the most important words there, with regards to this whole debate, are

at the end of six 24-hour periods

This tells me they must indeed mean 144 hours, or 6 x 24 actual hours, because our weekly rest period starts when we finish work for the last time in our working week, not at the end of our last 24-hour period. Even if we did 3 days with 9 hours rest and 15 work + 3 days of 11 hours rest and 13 work our weekly rest still wouldn’t start at 144 hours from the end of our previous weekly rest, it would be either 135 hours or 133 hours depending if our 6th shift was a 13 or 15 hour one.

We don’t take a daily rest, then our weekly rest, we extend a daily rest into a weekly rest, the weekly rest begins when we finish the shift. If it didn’t and instead began at the end of the 24 hour period the shortest possible weekly rest would be 33 hours, 9 hours daily rest, which takes you to the end of the 24 hour period from starting work + 24 hours weekly rest. This isn’t the case as we know 24 hours counts as the minimum reduced weekly rest, not 33.

So those four little words - at the end of ©ROG - make all the difference and the end of 6x24 is indeed 144, so as long as you do not go past 144 hours you can squeeze in as many shifts as you can, while meeting the other requirements of the regulations such as daily rest periods and maximum driving hours. Without those four little words I would argue it was 6 shifts but with them I can’t, well not any more as I am getting bored with it and will see if I can set ROG off on something else instead now. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :smiley:

Well, that’s what I believe anyway but I still won’t be trying it over the water just yet.

291

Coffeeholic:
There is one thing no one has picked up on and emphasised yet, which in my opinion nails the whole 144 hours thing, and I’ve been waiting a couple of weeks to see if anyone would do so. To pass the time while waiting I’ve been arguing against ROG just to keep him copying and pasting like a mad thing, not because I believed him to be wrong but just because it amuses me. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: I count extra points if he uses different colours. :stuck_out_tongue:

If you read the regulations it says:

A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.

And to me the most important words there, with regards to this whole debate, are

at the end of six 24-hour periods

This tells me they must indeed mean 144 hours, or 6 x 24 actual hours, because our weekly rest period starts when we finish work for the last time in our working week, not at the end of our last 24-hour period. Even if we did 3 days with 9 hours rest and 15 work + 3 days of 11 hours rest and 13 work our weekly rest still wouldn’t start at 144 hours from the end of our previous weekly rest, it would be either 135 hours or 133 hours depending if our 6th shift was a 13 or 15 hour one.

We don’t take a daily rest, then our weekly rest, we extend a daily rest into a weekly rest, the weekly rest begins when we finish the shift. If it didn’t and instead began at the end of the 24 hour period the shortest possible weekly rest would be 33 hours, 9 hours daily rest, which takes you to the end of the 24 hour period from starting work + 24 hours weekly rest. This isn’t the case as we know 24 hours counts as the minimum reduced weekly rest, not 33.

So those four little words - at the end of ©ROG - make all the difference and the end of 6x24 is indeed 144, so as long as you do not go past 144 hours you can squeeze in as many shifts as you can, while meeting the other requirements of the regulations such as daily rest periods and maximum driving hours. Without those four little words I would argue it was 6 shifts but with them I can’t, well not any more as I am getting bored with it and will see if I can set ROG off on something else instead now. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :smiley:

Well, that’s what I believe anyway but I still won’t be trying it over the water just yet.

You’re definately not going to heaven now !!

292

Mike-C:
You’re definately not going to heaven now !!

It’ll be more fun in the other place anyway, ROG will be there. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

293

Coffeeholic:

Mike-C:
You’re definately not going to heaven now !!

It’ll be more fun in the other place anyway, ROG will be there. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

PMSL so who will be the boss down there then :stuck_out_tongue: :laughing:

294

Mike-C:
You’re definately not going to heaven now !!

Coffeeholic:
It’ll be more fun in the other place anyway, ROG will be there. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

I have already put my towel over the chair :wink: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Sorry wrong emoticons - :imp: :imp: :imp: - much more appropriate…

295

ROG:

Mike-C:
You’re definately not going to heaven now !!

Coffeeholic:
It’ll be more fun in the other place anyway, ROG will be there. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

I have already put my towel over the chair :wink: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Who said there will be chairs? No sitting down there mate. No breaks, no POA, no WTD. That’ll play havoc with the back! :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

296

Coffeeholic:
Who said there will be chairs?

apparently the chair is there and will be good for my back as it is like a ‘tens machine’ - the thing is that this has 1,000,000 volts running through it :exclamation: :open_mouth: :unamused: :wink: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

297

Sorted!

298

scottishcruiser:
What about this for a working week? Is it do-able as a one off?

39 hr break and week started like this:-

Sun 01.00 - 09.35 (5H30 Drive - 16H Rest)
Mon 01.30 - 06.35 (4H30 Drive - 18H30 Rest)
Tues 01.00 - 12.00 (8H Drive - 12H20 Rest)
Wed 00.15 - 08.40 (6H25 Drive - 12H20 Rest)
Wed 21.00 - 07.15 (7H35 Drive - 13H10 Rest)
Thurs 20.30 - 06.15 (7H30 Drive - Presumke 14HR Rest)
Fri 20.30 - 06.00 (Presume 7H30 Drive - Presume 18HR30 Rest)
Sun 01.00 - 09.30 (Presume 7h30 Drive)

Then a full 56HR weekend break.

Is this legal? Its 7 days, 8 cards

I’ll have a go BUT wait for a GURU for the DEFINITIVE answer :slight_smile:

Start Sun 0100 so the next WEEKLY rest MUST be started by Sat 0100 and that rest must be at least 45 hours as the last one was a reduced weekly rest (39 hours).

I think that sort of kills it :exclamation: :exclamation: :wink: :laughing:

299

scottishcruiser:
What about this for a working week? Is it do-able as a one off?

39 hr break and week started like this:-

Sun 01.00 - 09.35 (5H30 Drive - 16H Rest)
Mon 01.30 - 06.35 (4H30 Drive - 18H30 Rest)
Tues 01.00 - 12.00 (8H Drive - 12H20 Rest)
Wed 00.15 - 08.40 (6H25 Drive - 12H20 Rest)
Wed 21.00 - 07.15 (7H35 Drive - 13H10 Rest)
Thurs 20.30 - 06.15 (7H30 Drive - Presumke 14HR Rest)
Fri 20.30 - 06.00 (Presume 7H30 Drive - Presume 18HR30 Rest)
Sun 01.00 - 09.30 (Presume 7h30 Drive)

Then a full 56HR weekend break.

Is this legal? Its 7 days, 8 cards

No mate, its totally illegal. I’m not being funny when i ask this question, but by asking it i’d guess you have a doubt. So, my question is which part of what you done has cause you to doubt it?

300

Hi Mike & Neil
i have had one part of my email answered

this is the example i sent him

i would like to know if you can use 7 tachograph charts in six days or more as long as you meet your daily rest requirements and driving hours

what i need to know is

this is an example of how you mite use Severn charts in six days

full rest before shift 45 hours

Mon 6 m till 2 pm

Tues 6 am till 2 pm

wed 6 am till 2 pm

Thurs 6 am till 2 pm

Fri 6 am till 2 pm

sat 6 am till 9 am

9 hours rest

than the driver goes home and and the boss ring him up and the other driver that does form 6 pm till 9 pm as not turned up and the driver does the run for him and it only takes 3 hour all in

he then puts a new chart in and works sat 6 pm till 9 pm goes home

as a rest of 33 hours and then can make up his rest next week cos the following weeks shift is only five days long and he would finish at 2 pm Fri and therefore have enough rest to compensate for the reduced rest last week

is the above example right or wrong

i hope you can help me

and this is the repley that i got to day

Anyway, your example of 7 charts in 6 days is right to a certain extent - there’s no problem with the driving hours and rest times, but strictly speaking, your last 3 hours worth of driving on the Saturday should be recorded on the first chart for that day. A tachograph record is a record of a driver’s work for a 24 hour period, and in this case, that 24 hour period started at 0600 hours.

still waiting for and other one so will let you know