Why did British Leyland fail?

dave docwra:

ramone:
AEC always had a good reputation until the Leyland “merger” , the 11.3 was an excellent engine as was the 9.6 , the 12.47 was a natural progression from the 11.3 , i havent heard of any major problems from anyone on here ,in fact ive heard quite the opposite , Graham reports virtually no problems with the fleet of TL12s Spillers ran , i remember Saviem reporting how profitable the TL12s he leased out were and from a drivers point of view i know personally drivers who drove and rated them and drivers on here saying the same thing ,what i dont understand is your constant slating of either AEC or Gardner for that matter .Both were excellent engine manufacturers in their day ,unfortunately for whatever reasons they didn`t move forward with technology.

The above is very accurate, we can all recall problems with all manufactures back in the 70’s & 80’s the swedes had there problems but the British knockers seem to have forgotten them, Now to Gardner, in it’s day which has now long passed was a high quality, fuel efficient engine & in my opinion if coupled with the correct gearbox was as good if not better as anything else available at the time.

I agree with you A Gardner geared right was great, For instance take the old Fodens with its 12 speed box could hold its own with anything IMO, This S 20 did 10 plus MPG, With a 150 in it, It earned a few bob I wish I had kept it & took it to the Wagon Runs, Regards Larry.

The following quote that follows gives some indication of the chaotic management thinking in the Leyland Group at the time the AEC V8 was being designed. The requirements of the military are in mant respects completely different to civilian haulage operation. The Military being interested in power above all other considerations. Longevity for a power unit which could be in equipment destroyed by the enemy tomorrow was of comparatively little importance.

Many years later Bob Friars, AEC’s chief power unit engineer at the time, was to write: “We never really knew what the engine was being developed for, or why. It was generally assumed that it was to be a military unit, but we didn’t know. Group engineering management produced an outline spec for a compact power unit capable of up to 300bhp, and shortly afterwards there was an activating memo. That was it. We didn’t know if it were for industrial, marine, automotive or any other application, let alone what its duty cycles were to be.”
Read more at archive.commercialmotor.com/arti … 7GiKOri.99

I would say that rather than trying to blame AEC and one particular inline engine and its dimensions, the responsibility for a lack of a suitable engine to take into the future should be laid firmly with Leyland engineering management. For: allowing the confusion created by trying to create a ‘Metric engine’, downsizing it, abandoning the Albion/ Leyland 0 900, allowing the metric 500 engine and the AV 800 to go into production before either was ready, abandoning the Leyland 0 690, but most of all for giving up and totally failing to realise what could be done with their own 0 680 only to have one of their competitors wipe the floor with them using the same basic structure.

Both the AEC and Leyland worked in the late 1920s on trying to develop a reliable diesel engine from their own almost identical petrol engines. Identical because they has been designed by the same man. Of the two companies the AEC, in conjunction with and at the instigation of the chief engineers of their major customer, explored more potential solutions. The resultant post WW2 products were very evenly matched. They each had their own and their shared failings . When it came to having to rectify those faults it was a quicker and simpler task to attend to the AEC product.

To put it into context the AV760 was introduced around 1964/5 alongside the AV691 as its more powerful stablemate, this at the change over point from wet liner to dry liner engine production, Automotive sales of the larger engine concentrated on its mid rated version. The questions needing to be asked about development at that time are: “Who in the period that these two engines were being developed, were AEC’s competitors and what was the target market?” ERF had introduced the 11 litre ■■■■■■■ 180 powered KV in 1961. This engine was roughly the equivalent of their own now superseded maximum-rated wet liner AV690 or the lowest rated 691. Other than that the main competitor was Gardner who they could easily outrun, or if staying in the new Leyland group the Power Plus 680. The AEC had virtually seen off Albion, Bristol, Crossley, Daimler, Dennis, Meadows, and Thorneycroft, none of whom had a reliable product of comparable size and output. For non automotive use the AV 1100 offered outputs far in excess of what was even dreamed of for vehicles. The market was mainly the very large UK haulier and the bus company sectors who wanted an engine with more lively performance than the plodding Gardner, occupied less space and which got somewhere near its physical weight.

Carryfast:
While we seem to have more than one of AEC’s designers having jumped ship and then more than coincidentally getting together again at Rolls ?.With the Eagle v the 760 being the result.

The obvious question being did they jump because of an internal engineering argument or because of financial constraints on their ideas or possibly both ?.Bearing in mind the very close timeline between the 760 v the Eagle.

I’d really like to know the answers to all those questions :smiley: because they’d settle at least some of the reasons as to what went wrong,at least in the case of the Truck division’s fortunes. :bulb: :wink:

CF, I agree. So why not identify the engineers who went to Rolls and then we can ask them what their recollections are. It certainly would be most revealing.

ramone:
AEC always had a good reputation until the Leyland “merger” , the 11.3 was an excellent engine as was the 9.6 , the 12.47 was a natural progression from the 11.3 , i havent heard of any major problems from anyone on here ,in fact ive heard quite the opposite , Graham reports virtually no problems with the fleet of TL12s Spillers ran , i remember Saviem reporting how profitable the TL12s he leased out were and from a drivers point of view i know personally drivers who drove and rated them and drivers on here saying the same thing ,what i dont understand is your constant slating of either AEC or Gardner for that matter .Both were excellent engine manufacturers in their day ,unfortunately for whatever reasons they didn`t move forward with technology.

You’re contradicting yourself.The issue is all about the failure to ‘move forward with technology’.In this case ‘moving forward’ mean’t the shift towards maximising torque output being the design aim and they weren’t going to do that with a 12 litre + engine with a stroke measurement of 142 mm let alone V8 with 114 mm.( AEC ).

Nor an engine that couldn’t take sufficient required turbo charge boost.( Gardner ).

The argument then being the timeline of that essential progression in design thinking.Bearing in mind that it was a race in which the slowest on the uptake were going to be left behind by the quickest.Which is what seperated the fortunes of the Gardners and AEC engines of that world from the ■■■■■■■ and more importantly Leyland’s equivalent in house foreign manufacturer competition like Volvo and Scania.

On that note as I said not replacing the 690 with a bored and stroked 136 x 152 replacement, instead of the 760,wasn’t an option.

Tomdhu:

Carryfast:
While we seem to have more than one of AEC’s designers having jumped ship and then more than coincidentally getting together again at Rolls ?.With the Eagle v the 760 being the result.

The obvious question being did they jump because of an internal engineering argument or because of financial constraints on their ideas or possibly both ?.Bearing in mind the very close timeline between the 760 v the Eagle.

I’d really like to know the answers to all those questions :smiley: because they’d settle at least some of the reasons as to what went wrong,at least in the case of the Truck division’s fortunes. :bulb: :wink:

CF, I agree. So why not identify the engineers who went to Rolls and then we can ask them what their recollections are. It certainly would be most revealing.

I can’t be of any help in that Tomdhu because I’ve only read that as hearsay on the Forum here and without any comments to the contrary have accepted it at face value.Therefore I’d say the same as you have.In that the answer to my questions would probably at least require confirmation of who they might have been and even better,but unlikely,could they personally,or anyone else contribute any confirmation of the circumstances and timeline of their move ( gingerfold ? ).

That’s assuming I haven’t missed something regarding the relevant Rolls engines and their timelines.If so apologies to Ramone.

IE does the Eagle introduced in 1967 relate to the same design being referred to by the alleged ex AEC designers in question ?.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=65419&start=450#p2092112

I cant really remember the RR Eagle being an outstanding performer so why is it so relevant■■?? when was the 290L introduced i remember the 265li and a local haulier buying some Fodens with the 290L in and an advertising campaign but they were very average this must have been around 79 - `80 the same haulier moved to Cat very quickly

ramone:
I cant really remember the RR Eagle being an outstanding performer so why is it so relevant■■?? when was the 290L introduced i remember the 265li and a local haulier buying some Fodens with the 290L in and an advertising campaign but they were very average this must have been around 79 - `80 the same haulier moved to Cat very quickly

The fact is,unlike the TL12,it was still there in 1990 putting out more than 100 lb/ft per litre.IE almost double the amount of specific torque output of the TL12,in the form of the Th.

commercial-motor.archive.netcopy … talair-for

Having said that regardless of the RR Eagle time line that contained the ( alleged ) involvement of AEC designers ?.It seems obvious that they wouldn’t have set the bore and stroke dimensions anyway.Those dimensions having been set with the previous pre Eagle Rolls design of the 1950’s and then carried over and which interestingly seem to match the older ■■■■■■■ bore stroke dimensions.While already obviously providing 60 lb/ft per litre in 1966 IE just 2 lb/ft per litre short of the TL12 at that point in time.

archive.commercialmotor.com/arti … roduce-aut

Which ironically not only answers my questions in that regard.But it also suggests that AEC’s thinking was actually retrograde by comparison with both Rolls and ■■■■■■■■■■ terms of providing a decent stroke dimension in its designs,as far back as the 690 at least.Having then excelled themselves in that regard with the AEC V8 with inevitable results. :open_mouth: :unamused:

One of the senior AEC engine men who went to Rolls Royce was Keith Roberts, but I don’t know the time frame. He was one of the engineers involved with the V8 and also the TL12. I was informed that he developed the Eagle for RR, but that would not fit the time-frame. He would have to had been in two places at the same time. I suspect that Keith Roberts was involved in the later turbo-charging of the RR engine after he developed the TL12 (introduced in 1973). The RR Eagle externally was virtually identical to an AEC AV760.

Didn’t ■■■■■■■ and perking also design a v8 that was hardly a roaring sucsess.
The early ■■■■■■■ l10 had a lot of problems but did mature in to a very good product.
Every car truck or engine builder will end up with a lemon it’s how you look after your customers and what you to to put it right that matters.
In the late 90s BMW had a huge problem with the cylinder linings on its six cylinder engines and the only cure was a new engine wich had been modified and they fitted them foc even on cars out of warranty and they still have a good reputation.
Compare that to British Leyland horror stories especaly from the 70s even Carryfast s beloved jaguar suffered with problems of cars falling apart and been unreliable at this time

gingerfold:
One of the senior AEC engine men who went to Rolls Royce was Keith Roberts, but I don’t know the time frame. He was one of the engineers involved with the V8 and also the TL12. I was informed that he developed the Eagle for RR, but that would not fit the time-frame. He would have to had been in two places at the same time. I suspect that Keith Roberts was involved in the later turbo-charging of the RR engine after he developed the TL12 (introduced in 1973). The RR Eagle externally was virtually identical to an AEC AV760.

I’d guess we can safely bust the myth of AEC’s design engineers having had any input whatsoever into the basic design architecture of the Eagle and certainly not its all important stroke dimension choices v the 690/1 which is what crippled the TL12.IE,like the 14 litre ■■■■■■■■■■■ Eagle enjoyed the luxury of having been designed along the usual conventional and correct lines of providing a decent stroke measurement within its basic architecture going back to its origins in the 1950’s.While also,just as in the case of the 2.5 Triumph upgrade,suggesting that compromising on that does absolutely nothing in terms of dealing with any supposed packaging/space limitations thereby removing that excuse.Also proved beyond doubt in the IRTE article regarding the packaging advantages of the 170 mm stroke Cursor 16.

kr79:
Didn’t ■■■■■■■ and perking also design a v8 that was hardly a roaring sucsess.
The early ■■■■■■■ l10 had a lot of problems but did mature in to a very good product.
Every car truck or engine builder will end up with a lemon it’s how you look after your customers and what you to to put it right that matters.
In the late 90s BMW had a huge problem with the cylinder linings on its six cylinder engines and the only cure was a new engine wich had been modified and they fitted them foc even on cars out of warranty and they still have a good reputation.
Compare that to British Leyland horror stories especaly from the 70s even Carryfast s beloved jaguar suffered with problems of cars falling apart and been unreliable at this time

Unfortunately there’s no way to ‘look after the customer’ in the case of a basic design flaw that will be guaranteed to wipe out the product on the basis of natural selection.You can obviously add the equally flawed ■■■■■■■ V8’s to that list.As for the L10 like any other downsizing attempt the question was/is why bother compared to the reliability and output benefits of the proven larger capacity 14 litre.

As for Jaguars ‘falling apart’ it depends on the definition of falling apart.Still running a 30+ year old Leyland era one and having run at least one of its major German competitors in the day the Jaguar is built like a tank by comparison.Together with other luxuries like rack and pinion steering and wishbone suspension all round.If there was any flaw it was exactly the same one of an excessively short stroke in the V12 but which was fixed to a degree by the 6 litre upgrade but which becomes relatively less of a problem as cylinder numbers increase.8 let alone 6 cylinders not fitting the description of enough cylinders in that case.

Bearing in mind that the Le Mans winning 7.0 litre V12 Jag motor’s capacity increase was in large part the result of yet another increase in stroke to 84 mm from the original 70 mm,the 6 litre’s being 78 mm. :bulb: :wink:

ramone:
I cant really remember the RR Eagle being an outstanding performer so why is it so relevant■■?? when was the 290L introduced i remember the 265li and a local haulier buying some Fodens with the 290L in and an advertising campaign but they were very average this must have been around 79 - `80 the same haulier moved to Cat very quickly

We ran a fleet of Foden’s with 265 and 265Li Roller’s and they were brilliant performers but heavier on fuel that the previous Gardner 201’s. Mine did 10 years without even an injector change, but usually they were rebuilt after 6 or 7 years. We did have one with a Cat engine in it, that soon got ripped out and replaced with a ■■■■■■■ following continual head gasket failures, and one with a L10 and that was a resounding disaster at first but a fresh engine sorted it finally.

Pete.

Carryfast:

gingerfold:
One of the senior AEC engine men who went to Rolls Royce was Keith Roberts, but I don’t know the time frame. He was one of the engineers involved with the V8 and also the TL12. I was informed that he developed the Eagle for RR, but that would not fit the time-frame. He would have to had been in two places at the same time. I suspect that Keith Roberts was involved in the later turbo-charging of the RR engine after he developed the TL12 (introduced in 1973). The RR Eagle externally was virtually identical to an AEC AV760.

I’d guess we can safely bust the myth of AEC’s design engineers having had any input whatsoever into the basic design architecture of the Eagle and certainly not its all important stroke dimension choices v the 690/1 which is what crippled the TL12.IE,like the 14 litre ■■■■■■■■■■■ Eagle enjoyed the luxury of having been designed along the usual conventional and correct lines of providing a decent stroke measurement within its basic architecture going back to its origins in the 1950’s.While also,just as in the case of the 2.5 Triumph upgrade,suggesting that compromising on that does absolutely nothing in terms of dealing with any supposed packaging/space limitations thereby removing that excuse.Also proved beyond doubt in the IRTE article regarding the packaging advantages of the 170 mm stroke Cursor 16.

Why was the TL12 crippled■■? it was a turbocharged version of the AV760 both were good engines so why were they crippled .You sound like a broken record repeating yourself constantly .Why not look at how they performed.Im sure very few hauliers and even fewer drivers gave a toss about stroke and dimensions.The former would be interested in reliability and mpg , the latter how they performed on the road .Why not give us some examples of AEC having to buy back the TL12s because they were such a flawed design . They came to the end of the road we all know a new engine was needed but because of reasons already discussed on here it wasnt possible. The 11.3 was available in the 50s (help me out here Graham on actual introduction dates) a design that was modified and was in production right up until the 80s not bad for a flawed design :wink:

Carryfast:

kr79:
Didn’t ■■■■■■■ and perking also design a v8 that was hardly a roaring sucsess.
The early ■■■■■■■ l10 had a lot of problems but did mature in to a very good product.
Every car truck or engine builder will end up with a lemon it’s how you look after your customers and what you to to put it right that matters.
In the late 90s BMW had a huge problem with the cylinder linings on its six cylinder engines and the only cure was a new engine wich had been modified and they fitted them foc even on cars out of warranty and they still have a good reputation.
Compare that to British Leyland horror stories especaly from the 70s even Carryfast s beloved jaguar suffered with problems of cars falling apart and been unreliable at this time

Unfortunately there’s no way to ‘look after the customer’ in the case of a basic design flaw that will be guaranteed to wipe out the product on the basis of natural selection.You can obviously add the equally flawed ■■■■■■■ V8’s to that list.As for the L10 like any other downsizing attempt the question was/is why bother compared to the reliability and output benefits of the proven larger capacity 14 litre.

As for Jaguars ‘falling apart’ it depends on the definition of falling apart.Still running a 30+ year old Leyland era one and having run at least one of its major German competitors in the day the Jaguar is built like a tank by comparison.Together with other luxuries like rack and pinion steering and wishbone suspension all round.If there was any flaw it was exactly the same one of an excessively short stroke in the V12 but which was fixed to a degree by the 6 litre upgrade but which becomes relatively less of a problem as cylinder numbers increase.8 let alone 6 cylinders not fitting the description of enough cylinders in that case.

Bearing in mind that the Le Mans winning 7.0 litre V12 Jag motor’s capacity increase was in large part the result of yet another increase in stroke to 84 mm from the original 70 mm,the 6 litre’s being 78 mm. :bulb: :wink:

BMW are still here with there reputation in tact despite the nickasi bore problem due to there customer service when it happened. Daf aid was a huge plus for daf operators in the early days as they moved heaven and earth to get the customer moving asap.
The L 10 proved a great design once the flaws were sorted and was one of the most fuel efficent engines in its class in the 80s and 90s along with its sucsess or the m11.
If your jag has made it that far in life it has been looked after and probaly had some restoration like any car would but the quality of jags under BL until John Egan took over was poor for a premium car and realy until the x300 come out the build quality wasn’t as good as it’s competitors.

ramone:
Why was the TL12 crippled■■? it was a turbocharged version of the AV760 both were good engines so why were they crippled .You sound like a broken record repeating yourself constantly .Why not look at how they performed.Im sure very few hauliers and even fewer drivers gave a toss about stroke and dimensions.The former would be interested in reliability and mpg , the latter how they performed on the road .Why not give us some examples of AEC having to buy back the TL12s because they were such a flawed design . They came to the end of the road we all know a new engine was needed but because of reasons already discussed on here it wasnt possible. The 11.3 was available in the 50s (help me out here Graham on actual introduction dates) a design that was modified and was in production right up until the 80s not bad for a flawed design :wink:

The definition of ‘good engine’ in this case is good from the long term point of view of the manufacturer not the short term view of its users between around the mid 1960’s to early 1980’s.The definition of ‘crippled’ meaning that it came to ‘the end of the road’ prematurely owing to its lack of development potential regarding the longer term requirements of its customers regards specific torque output.That lack of potential being in large part the result of the choices made by those who’d designed the previous types which it was based on.Unlike the 14 litre ■■■■■■■ and Rolls Eagle. :bulb:

Carryfast:
[
Unfortunately there’s no way to ‘look after the customer’ in the case of a basic design flaw that will be guaranteed to wipe out the product on the basis of natural selection.You can obviously add the equally flawed ■■■■■■■ V8’s to that list.As for the L10 like any other downsizing attempt the question was/is why bother compared to the reliability and output benefits of the proven larger capacity 14 litre.

Well that is arguing against yourself. The L10 was conceived because ■■■■■■■ wanted a share of the market for lighter, smaller engines in a specific power range. They did this because they could see what the customer wanted and they didn’t at the time have a suitable product. They could have ignored what the market at the time was demanding, but then they would not have enjoyed the success which was to come to them.

From the IRTE article, having mentioned the external dimensions of the Cursor 16 it goes on to say:

“Further, ensuring sufficient cooling for a 600bhp-plus Cursor 16 beneath a Stralis cab would require additional engineering time (and money) from the Italian truck maker that might be more profitably spent elsewhere. And then there’s the not insignificant matter of creating a drivetrain to match it. - See more at: transportengineer.org.uk/tra … If2gE.dpuf

As indicated before, the AEC Monobloc engine being designed before 1954 with particular reference to the wishes of not only the company’s largest customer, but also a significant shareholder in the business. This customer was emphasising space and weight considerations as being of great importance. Even so when the prototype vehicle was constructed using the preceding A204 engine it had to have the cooling radiator and fan fitted horizontally under the floor of the vehicle because there was not room to accommodate them in the normal position without contravening Construction and Use overall length regulations.

Just about everything to do with a vehicle is some sort of compromise between conflicting dis/benefits. The AEC had settled upon its chosen particular stroke length for some reason. It had tried a 146mm stroke in its very successful, but certainly not smooth running 7.7 engine.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the engine’s internal dimensions might be, there can have been little to gain from constructing a product which in engineering terms would be required 30 years hence, if the company should go out of business in the meantime because its customers had gone elsewhere.

kr79:
BMW are still here with there reputation in tact despite the nickasi bore problem due to there customer service when it happened. Daf aid was a huge plus for daf operators in the early days as they moved heaven and earth to get the customer moving asap.
The L 10 proved a great design once the flaws were sorted and was one of the most fuel efficent engines in its class in the 80s and 90s along with its sucsess or the m11.
If your jag has made it that far in life it has been looked after and probaly had some restoration like any car would but the quality of jags under BL until John Egan took over was poor for a premium car and realy until the x300 come out the build quality wasn’t as good as it’s competitors.

Firstly how many heavy truck engine manufacturers choose the sub 12 litre capacity benchmark today ?.IE natural selection long ago made the 12 litre + benchmark the natural choice.While according to the IRTE Cursor article its only recently that manufacturers are again ‘thinking about’ downsizing engines which experience suggests will have the same results as before in costing them money in trying to make over stressed engines stay together. :unamused:

As for the Jag I think the so called massive change in build quality between the Leyland years v Egan on had/has more to do with Political propaganda of privatisation v nationalised than any real differences.As for BMW yes they are still around just like Jaguar was the only firm worth rescuing from the Leyland collapse.In large part because of the design choices made by its designers previously which put the thing way ahead of BMW ‘if’ anyone chose to look beyond the stereotyping of its Leyland takeover parent or for that matter the BMW badge.

cav551:

Carryfast:
[
Unfortunately there’s no way to ‘look after the customer’ in the case of a basic design flaw that will be guaranteed to wipe out the product on the basis of natural selection.You can obviously add the equally flawed ■■■■■■■ V8’s to that list.As for the L10 like any other downsizing attempt the question was/is why bother compared to the reliability and output benefits of the proven larger capacity 14 litre.

Well that is arguing against yourself. The L10 was conceived because ■■■■■■■ wanted a share of the market for lighter, smaller engines in a specific power range. They did this because they could see what the customer wanted and they didn’t at the time have a suitable product. They could have ignored what the market at the time was demanding, but then they would not have enjoyed the success which was to come to them.

From the IRTE article, having mentioned the external dimensions of the Cursor 16 it goes on to say:

“Further, ensuring sufficient cooling for a 600bhp-plus Cursor 16 beneath a Stralis cab would require additional engineering time (and money) from the Italian truck maker that might be more profitably spent elsewhere. And then there’s the not insignificant matter of creating a drivetrain to match it. - See more at: transportengineer.org.uk/tra … If2gE.dpuf

As indicated before, the AEC Monobloc engine being designed before 1954 with particular reference to the wishes of not only the company’s largest customer, but also a significant shareholder in the business. This customer was emphasising space and weight considerations as being of great importance. Even so when the prototype vehicle was constructed using the preceding A204 engine it had to have the cooling radiator and fan fitted horizontally under the floor of the vehicle because there was not room to accommodate them in the normal position without contravening Construction and Use overall length regulations.

Just about everything to do with a vehicle is some sort of compromise between conflicting dis/benefits. The AEC had settled upon its chosen particular stroke length for some reason. It had tried a 146mm stroke in its very successful, but certainly not smooth running 7.7 engine.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the engine’s internal dimensions might be, there can have been little to gain from constructing a product which in engineering terms would be required 30 years hence, if the company should go out of business in the meantime because its customers had gone elsewhere.

As I read it the Cursor project in the article was all about providing 18 litre type output from a 13 litre type package in which they’ve decided that a 170 mm stroke is the way to get it.You’ll also see that the idea of downsizing is only on the table.With the move and investment expense from 13 to 16 litre,not sub 12 litre,suggesting ( rightly ) that the jury is well and truly still out in that regard.

As for the obvious torque output benefits of the ■■■■■■■ and Rolls v AEC designs the difference is clear and that difference made itself known and was exploited well before the 30 year mark in the case of the 691 and 760/TL12.IE we’re really talking about a time line between the introduction of the 690 in the late 1950’s and the 760 in the mid 1960’s to the introduction of the big cam ■■■■■■■ and the F12 in the late 1970’s.At that point it was game over for Leyland as an in house manufacturer. :bulb:

Carryfast:

ramone:
Why was the TL12 crippled■■? it was a turbocharged version of the AV760 both were good engines so why were they crippled .You sound like a broken record repeating yourself constantly .Why not look at how they performed.Im sure very few hauliers and even fewer drivers gave a toss about stroke and dimensions.The former would be interested in reliability and mpg , the latter how they performed on the road .Why not give us some examples of AEC having to buy back the TL12s because they were such a flawed design . They came to the end of the road we all know a new engine was needed but because of reasons already discussed on here it wasnt possible. The 11.3 was available in the 50s (help me out here Graham on actual introduction dates) a design that was modified and was in production right up until the 80s not bad for a flawed design :wink:

The definition of ‘good engine’ in this case is good from the long term point of view of the manufacturer not the short term view of its users between around the mid 1960’s to early 1980’s.The definition of ‘crippled’ meaning that it came to ‘the end of the road’ prematurely owing to its lack of development potential regarding the longer term requirements of its customers regards specific torque output.That lack of potential being in large part the result of the choices made by those who’d designed the previous types which it was based on.Unlike the 14 litre ■■■■■■■ and Rolls Eagle. :bulb:

The AV760 /TL12 came from the continuous development of the 11.3 which became the AV/AH690 - AV/AH691 then the AV760 in 12.47 litre form then turbocharged to bring in the TL12 so its roots go back to at least the early 50s so look again at good engine and flawed design because a basic design that develops and stays in production for at least 30 years doesnt seem flawed to me but no doubt you know different :wink:

windrush:

ramone:
I cant really remember the RR Eagle being an outstanding performer so why is it so relevant■■?? when was the 290L introduced i remember the 265li and a local haulier buying some Fodens with the 290L in and an advertising campaign but they were very average this must have been around 79 - `80 the same haulier moved to Cat very quickly

We ran a fleet of Foden’s with 265 and 265Li Roller’s and they were brilliant performers but heavier on fuel that the previous Gardner 201’s. Mine did 10 years without even an injector change, but usually they were rebuilt after 6 or 7 years. We did have one with a Cat engine in it, that soon got ripped out and replaced with a ■■■■■■■ following continual head gasket failures, and one with a L10 and that was a resounding disaster at first but a fresh engine sorted it finally.

Pete.

I heard they were plague by oil leaks but could hold their own on the road H.Baker at Bradford ran some and they were impressed with the mpg but then again they were 290Ls on motorway work which is a totally different ball game to your work i would expect . I had a 320 Gardner and loved it , again they were supposed to be bad for oil leaks and mine was never a problem , H.Bakers had some and they eventually retuned them to 350 bhp because they were sluggish mine was anything but