Cruise Control:
Your sure, that your final answer
An in-scope vehicle would become in-scope for the driver if doing any in-scope driving during the working day - that’s how I’ve come to my conclusion but I am always ready to learn if other - hence my questions a few posts above about the different sorts of shunters 
COFFEEHOLIC HELP!!!
Rog my point is it is not the vehicle it is the activity. Right, I spend four hours of my day moving various rigids around the yard on and off bays. In the various increments lets say that would clock up to 1.5 hours of driving. I then get the call to go and rescue a driver who has broken down and head off in an empty truck. The driving I did in the yard is out of scope, it is other work.
interlog:
The buttons on the tacho don’t mean nothing. It is the rules that count:
The buttons give you the ability to put the vehicle out of scope of EU regulations so it shows as out of scope on the driver card.
Out of scope work is classed as “other work”
interlog:
Vehicles used for the carriage of goods by road and with a maximum permissible weight (including any trailer or semi-trailer) of over 3.5 tonnes are in scope of the EU rules. ‘Carriage by road’ is defined as any journey entirely or in part made on roads open to the public of a vehicle, laden or unladen, used for the carriage of passengers or goods. ‘Off-road’ driving is in scope where it forms part of a journey that also takes place on public roads. Journeys made that are entirely ‘off-road’ are out of scope of the EU rules.
When you start your shift and your vehicle goes on the road during that shift, it can’t be entirely “off road” and therefore can’t be out of scope.
A journey is not the same as a shift, perhaps you could point us to the regulation that says your vehicle is in-scope if it goes onto public roads at any time during the shift
interlog:
The rules are actually quite clear:
They certainly are 
Article 1 - (EC) No 561/2006:
This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety.
Article 3 - (EC) No 561/2006:
- This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
(a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the
vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds
3,5 tonnes
Article 4 - (EC) No 561/2006:
(a) ‘carriage by road’ means any journey made entirely or in
part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether
laden or not, used for the carriage of passengers or
goods;
Page 14 - GV 262:
Note: Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on
the public highway. Journeys taking place entirely off road would be considered as ’other work’.So, for example, any time spent driving off road between a parking/rest area and a loading bay prior to
travelling on a public road would constitute driving time, but it would be regarded as other work where
an entire load is picked up and deposited on the same off-road site.
As I said before please point us to the regulation that contradicts both the EU regulations and VOSAs own booklet
tofer:
I spend four hours of my day moving various rigids around the yard on and off bays.
They would be in-scope vehicles
tofer:
I then get the call to go and rescue a driver who has broken down and head off in an empty truck
Now puts the driving of the above in-scope
tofer:
The driving I did in the yard is out of scope, it is other work.
I disagree
VOSA 2009 DRIVER REGS GV262 - 02
Even a short period of driving under EU rules during any day by a driver will mean that he is in scope of the EU rules for the whole of that day and must comply with the daily driving, break and rest requirements; he will also have to comply with the weekly rest requirement and driving limit.
click the link VOSA 2009 DRIVER REGS GV262 - 02 and see if you can find anything to back up your claim of it being other work because I cannot find owt
Wheel Nut:
I don’t understand what the trailer has got to do with any driver records, whether you use one trailer or move 75 trailers in the depot.
Well it doesn’t really but the opening post questioned what would happen about moving trailers around a yard as far as the regs are concerned, going on road wasn’t mentioned in that post.
If you load a trailer in the yard and take it out on the road it’s part of the same journey and the off-road driving counts as driving time, if you just move the trailers around the yard without going onto public roads then it’s classed as “other work” and the off-road driving doesn’t count as “driving time” for the regs.
tofer:
Yes ROG but last time I looked, time spent driving a vehicle on private premises did not count as being in scope and would be classed as other work. IE if you spent half hour putting your trailer on a bay, then fueling, then back on the bay then out on the road, that is scope. I shunt in the yard and regularly have to collect vehicles from an offsite workshop 10km away, the on road driving puts me in scope so I have to obey all daily rest requirements etc but that’s not to say that I have to record all the driving I’ve done in the yard as driving, it’s other work for purposes of WTD.
You are muddying the waters here, all work is work for purposes of WTD. Driving loading or doing paperwork and asking directions.
Forget RTD / WTD in this post. Forget how many trailers you have moved in the yard.
Driving an untaxed Mafi or retired old nail is the same as pushing a wheelbarrow or a pallet truck.
ROG:
If you are using a unit that is legally road worthy then it is DRIVING and not OTHER WORK if you do any in-scope driving during that work day.
If you are using a purpose built shunter then it is OTHER WORKI’m sure I’ve got that correct…
I’m sure you haven’t 
The vehicle being legally road worthy has nothing to do with this discussion, what’s important is weather or not the whole journey was done off roads open to the public.
If the whole journey was done without going onto public roads then the vehicle was out of scope of EU regulations and the work including the off road driving is classed as “other work” and therefore does not count towards the days driving time.
‘Off-road’ driving is in scope where it forms part of a journey that also takes place on public roads. Journeys made that are entirely ‘off-road’ are out of scope of the EU rules.
Right Rog explain to me how my trip from Bay 3 to Bay 16 and then from Bay 16 to parking area repeat fifty times with fifty vehicles constitutes “on road” driving.
My point is that any driving done in the yard as above is “Other Work” If you wish to be pedantic obvioulsy when I get in my empty vehicle to go and rescue the driver, the bit of driving I do to get to the gatehouse is in scope. Obviously the vehicles are in scope when used on the public road, which our yard is not. All your quote tells me is that I have to obey the regulations on daily and weekly rest which I already know, and DHL require that I submit a full manual trace for the day to account for my POA and Working Time breaks, even on a day where I do no In Scope Driving. Where is your quote that says as soon as I go out on the road all the driving I did in the yard magically becomes Driving, not other work?
Wheel Nut:
tofer:
Yes ROG but last time I looked, time spent driving a vehicle on private premises did not count as being in scope and would be classed as other work. IE if you spent half hour putting your trailer on a bay, then fueling, then back on the bay then out on the road, that is scope. I shunt in the yard and regularly have to collect vehicles from an offsite workshop 10km away, the on road driving puts me in scope so I have to obey all daily rest requirements etc but that’s not to say that I have to record all the driving I’ve done in the yard as driving, it’s other work for purposes of WTD.You are muddying the waters here, all work is work for purposes of WTD. Driving loading or doing paperwork and asking directions.
Forget RTD / WTD in this post. Forget how many trailers you have moved in the yard.
Driving an untaxed Mafi or retired old nail is the same as pushing a wheelbarrow or a pallet truck.
Yes Mr Nut, I know this but ROG doesn’t seem to, but as I said this argument has no relevance to the OP because he lost his time at another site he had driven to which as has been established would count as driving time.
There seems to be some confusion here about the meaning of “in-scope” and “off-road driving”.
If you take a vehicle onto public roads then you come in-scope of EU regulations for the entire shift, but that doesn’t mean that all driving done during that shift is classed as “driving time” for the EU regs.
“Driving time” is time spent driving in-scope of EU regulations, in other words time spent participating in the “carriage by road” of goods or passengers.
Journeys that are not classed as “carriage by road” are not in-scope of EU regs, remember that “carriage by road” means journeys that take you onto public roads.
Where the whole of a journey is off-road the driving is classed as “other work” even though you may be in-scope of the EU regs and therefore have to obey the rest periods ec’t, only when part of the same journey is done on public roads does the driving count as “driving time” for the EU regs.
That’s why the digital tachograph manufacturers had to include a facility to record out of scope driving
DS074:
On Friday I set off from Leeds depot (1 minute from M1) swapped a trailer at coca cola at J41 then started heading for Morrisons at Burton Latimer. As I was passing J39 Denby Dale I noticed my driving time on the tacho and I couldnt believe it. At best I would of done 20-25 mins driving, but because of all the stop starting in yard/coke it was actually 1 hour and 12 minutes! By the time I had reached Burton Latimer with a stop for a paper it was 3 hours 34 mins.Now just looked on Google Maps and its only 130 miles which means I have averaged 34 mph…even though I never got held up on motorway or A14.
Just got me wondering…I used to do a job years ago where before we went anywhere, 3 of us used to move a load of trailers round yard ready for when loaders came in. With new digital tacho, doing this, would it actually show more driving time than duty time after all the shunts?
I read it as being irrelevant to the In Scope/Out of scope bits.
I think it’s more to do with the “time-theft” committed by the machine.
Now, before those cleverer than me start rolling their eyes, I’m not talking about the rounding up of minutes or any magical back-calculations we’re told they can manage.
I’m talking about them not registering small periods of stationary activity. And that’s NOT REGISTERING — at all.
Obviously, if I’m in a traffic jam, shunting stop/start/stop/start; or if I’m sat at a particularly badly phased traffic light on red, then I’m still “driving” Regardless of any urban myth about handbrakes/parking brakes.
But . . . . . . . . . . The period before the machine decides I’ve stopped, and allocates time to that stop, is far too long.
I’ll give you two documented examples (I’ve been collecting “documentary evidence” for a couple of months, and will continue to do so until such time that I have to through myself on the mercy of the court )
Question. Am I driving ?
Complete my journey to the other yard.
Take a print out. A dated and timed print out.
No record of stopping. Only two lines of text. One showing 54 minutes of continuous driving, the other showing the whole minute I waited before printing.
Knowing I’d driven “a good while” to get there, I put it on break, wait 2 minutes then do a print off to check my driving time. Guess what ? Three hours driving. No stationary periods until the one showing me on break.
I agree that the machine can’t know whether I’m sat at traffic lights or whether I’m stood at the side of the motor taking a quick ■■■■ in a layby. But I do think the time period before it “lets you be stood” in far too long.
Tofer, you mentioned the WTD. I just said you are muddying the waters, it hasn’t any relevance on this subject.
However What you are saying about bay 3 to 16 is correct, it is other work or more correctly “work other than driving” to be shown with crossed hammers.
If the tachograph is put out of scope using the scroll button after you reverse onto Bay 3, despite Interlog thinking the buttons are not relevant. It will record the out of scope driving as that, out of scope of the current EC regulations.
When we get to the advantages of a digital tachograph, you can put them out of scope using buttons. An analogue will automatically switch from rest or crossed hammers to driving when you leave your trailer on bay 3. So now we have a couple of ferinstances.
E.g. lorry drives towards destination on main road, enters private road and completes journey ( all driving counts as driving time) but subsequently (as a seperate and unrelated off road driving phase) the driver unhitches his trailer, moves his tractor unit or drives off road around the farm. The VOSA approach suggests it will not regard this as ‘driving time’ but rather other work.
or.
Driver drops trailer on bay 3, drives to fuel pump, pops into garage for a new bulb, nips back across yard & into traffic office and is given rush job to Paris tonight. Trailer is loaded on Bay 16, look sharp
The driver with the digital tacho who had placed the tacho out of scope would fair better in France than the guy with the analogue who took his card out at the gatehouse I wager.
During a week in which in-scope driving has taken place, any previous work - including out-of-scope driving in that week - must be recorded as ‘other work’ on a tachograph chart, printout or digital tachograph.
The following vehicles will no longer be covered by the Drivers’ Hours Law:
Vehicles with a maximum authorised speed over 30kph but not over 40kph
Vehicles used for the non-commercial transportation of humanitarian aid.
Vehicles up to 7.5 tonnes gvw used for the non-commercial carriage of goods.
Historic commercial vehicles, the exact nature of which is still to be determined, but is likely to be vehicles registered before 1947.
Vehicles used, or hired without a driver, which work in agricultural, horticultural, forestry, or fishing within a radius of 100km of their base in the UK.
Mobile project vehicles with an educational purpose such as a playbus.
Vehicles used in the UK for driving exams providing they are not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or passengers.
Vehicles used in the UK for driving instruction or examination for obtaining a Certificate of Professional Competence providing they are not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or passengers.
Vehicles used exclusively in hub facilities such as ports, railway terminals and airports.
The vehicles above in red come into the same class as the forklift, sackbarrow and pallet truck. I would question strongly whether the same ports, railway terminals and airports could be classed as out of scope for road going vehicles though.
dambuster:
I read it as being irrelevant to the In Scope/Out of scope bits.I think it’s more to do with the “time-theft” committed by the machine.
Now, before those cleverer than me
I’m talking about them not registering small periods of stationary activity. And that’s NOT REGISTERING — at all.
Obviously, if I’m in a traffic jam, shunting stop/start/stop/start; or if I’m sat at a particularly badly phased traffic light on red, then I’m still “driving” Regardless of any urban myth about handbrakes/parking brakes.
But . . . . . . . . . . The period before the machine decides I’ve stopped, and allocates time to that stop, is far too long.
I’ll give you two documented examples (I’ve been collecting “documentary evidence” for a couple of months, and will continue to do so until such time that I have to through myself on the mercy of the court
- Leave a yard at the beginning of a day to drive to another yard.
Pull into a BP service station to buy milk. Walk across the forecourt. Get milk from the fridge. Wait my turn behind one person. Pay for milk, and ask for till receipt (Machine printed, including time and date) Walk back across forecourt.Question. Am I driving ?
Complete my journey to the other yard.
Take a print out. A dated and timed print out.
No record of stopping. Only two lines of text. One showing 54 minutes of continuous driving, the other showing the whole minute I waited before printing.
- Similar, but far more entertaining. Start work in the morning, drive a good while to get to Felixstowe. Straight onto dock to the In gates. No queue. Straight under the canopy to book in. Get out and walk all the way round to undo twistlocks. Give my booking reference to the checker and confirm loaded status and seal number. Walk the 30/40 yards into the building. Hand paperwork to the dude inside. He checks the info, I give him details of the box I want for import, and he prints off two A4 sheets of Dock Interchanges. I sign one and leave to walk the 30/40 yards back and set off for my export slot.
Knowing I’d driven “a good while” to get there, I put it on break, wait 2 minutes then do a print off to check my driving time. Guess what ? Three hours driving. No stationary periods until the one showing me on break.
I agree that the machine can’t know whether I’m sat at traffic lights or whether I’m stood at the side of the motor taking a quick ■■■■ in a layby. But I do think the time period before it “lets you be stood” in far too long.
The link I put on page one of this thread explains the new generation digital tacho, this will avoid some of the above.
A new generation of driver-friendly digital tachographs will allow activities to be recorded in greater detail, so that non-driving time does not end up being recorded as driving time.
At present, if a driver continues driving for part of a minute, that whole minute is recorded as driving time. Changes agreed by a European Commission technical committee will allow for the greatest activity in a single calendar minute to take precedence. If the two activities are equal, the last activity takes precedence. A driver who takes an extra 20 seconds to park will find that the tachograph defaults to ‘other work’ because that occupies the greater part of that minute. Drivers will benefit because most non-driving time will no longer be recorded as driving time.
So it looks like I have learned something today
A driver shunts many different LGV trucks in a yard and then drives one of those LGV trucks onto the public highway.
From what I now gather is being said, the yard shunting is NOT counted as driving time -is that correct 
And for anyone living in the North East, you don’t need to use a tachograph at all,
provided that you are only collecting or delivering sea coal 
Yes ROG that is the point I was trying to make to you.
Wheel Nut:
And for anyone living in the North East, you don’t need to use a tachograph at all,provided that you are only collecting or delivering sea coal
I’ve heard that if you drive a truck in the north west the authorities are so laid back about tacho’s and EU regulations and such crap that if they were any more relaxed they would fall over.
I overheard someguy at truck stop as soon as you enter the north west you can take you paper chart out/card out and only have to put it back in when you leave the north west. and you can do 60+ in your truck when on motorways in the northwest and it will go unnoticed. For once its not Utter BS or another DM 
I am still not convinced.
A journey of the vehicle is from A to B from the beginning to the end of the shift. So if that journey of that vehicle involves travelling on the public road, all the driving of that driving shift in that unit becomes in scope.
No problems jumping in one unit and do shunting in the yard, then go in another unit and go on the public road. The first unit’s driving will not count, the second unit’s will count.
The button on the tacho to select “out of scope” is used to aid proving that all miles in the vehicle have been accounted for. When and if VOSA does their tacho checks on an operator they will look for any miles that have not been accounted for and the operator has to explain any big discrepancies as it usually points to driving without the driving activity being recorded (eg without a chart or card).
I only had an FTA refresher course on tacho rules and regs the other week and this exact question came up. I was not convinced by the FTA when I asked if a driver comes back to site and then moves trailers about in the yard in the same unit and that this would not be classed as driving that they said I was incorrect.
So I checked with VOSA and they confirmed what the FTA has said.
I actually found the literature the FTA provided online:
silvergray.co.uk/hours_2007.pdf
On page 13 of the PDF it says:
Off-road driving
‘Carriage by road’ is re-defined as ‘any journey made entirely or in part on roads open to the public by a vehicle, whether laden or not, used for the carriage of passengers or goods’. This means that where a vehicle travels on both public and private roads, all of the driving must be counted as such - vehicles delivering to private sites may no longer count the site driving as ‘other work’ rather than driving time. However, operations that take place entirely off public roads will not come in scope of the rules.Drivers affected by this change will have less driving time available to them during the day. They may need to take more breaks from driving, and take those breaks earlier. The example below shows a pattern for a tipper driver who drives on public roads to get to and from a site, but spends part of the day driving on site. He currently counts the onsite driving as other work (shown in yellow) and so can postpone his break until 6 hours after he began work. However, under the new rules, all his driving is classed as driving (shown in blue) which triggers a break from work requirement after 4.5 hours.
Well this case is now closed as I am going to do the biggest U turn in the world.
Due to my information from the DFT, VOSA and even Road Transport dot com being duff. I am scuttling back under my stone
The quotes I used had come from the internet, but obviously had been snippets of old information. There is a getout, but only between Domestic and EU Driving.
So in future I am going to take my own advice, don’t use the VOSA Guides, the DFT business link or even trade magazines. 
The 561/2006 regulations are the only one to listen to.
So for all the people who just got caught out.
SORRY
Even a tool can be useful occasionally.
Forget the out of scope buttons. Interlog, an apology is due
I also found some interesting IRU stuff.
iru.org/index/cms-filesystem … aph_EN.pdf
Scuttles away