Warning;Gibraltar tensions with Spain

Orys,

Playing Devils advocate here, I have informed the Germans that if they invade Eastern Europe again and Kick the
crap out of them, The English will not come and kick the crap out of the Germans AGAIN and Save all these
ungrateful People !!

If only England had looked at the Germans in a different way, there would have been No Russia …!!

And of course there would be no “orys” so be careful what you wish for !!

{Quote=“orys”} Playing devil’s advocate here, would you buy something you consider to be unlawfuly taken from you by force?

toby1234abc:
I thought that there was a law that enables travelers no hinderance or delays at borders.For freight traffic the same applies to freight traffic.Is it Scheingen agreement or wording similar to that.

If only Britain was in Schengen… :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I think the point is Spain is party to the Schengen agreement and it is they that are not following the rules they agreed to.

Ossie

JJSL:
Orys,

Playing Devils advocate here, I have informed the Germans that if they invade Eastern Europe again and Kick the
crap out of them, The English will not come and kick the crap out of the Germans AGAIN and Save all these
ungrateful People !!

If only England had looked at the Germans in a different way, there would have been No Russia …!!

And of course there would be no “orys” so be careful what you wish for !!

Oh, calm down, such kind of patriotism never brought anything good to anyone… I just wanted to point out, that the British point of view is not ONLY point of view, and it is to be discussed if its the rightful one.

As for history, I can’t recall much British soldiers freeing Poland from Germans… But I can remember many Polish soldiers saving Britain from Germans :slight_smile:

Haha Orys,

You are to Kind, but, I feel sorry for the thousands of British and American soldiers buried all over Europe/North Africa, plus all the commonwealth soldiers who also died doing nothing for Poland ?

Anyway, lets ask Spain to give up Ceuta and Melilla to the Moroccans first and then they can start shouting about
Gib…

Finally, I have the greatest admiration for all the Poles who come to England and fought the Germans, but they had a very good reason to fight, there homeland was gone !!!

Regards :smiley: :smiley:

orys:

JJSL:
Orys,

Playing Devils advocate here, I have informed the Germans that if they invade Eastern Europe again and Kick the
crap out of them, The English will not come and kick the crap out of the Germans AGAIN and Save all these
ungrateful People !!

If only England had looked at the Germans in a different way, there would have been No Russia …!!

And of course there would be no “orys” so be careful what you wish for !!

Oh, calm down, such kind of patriotism never brought anything good to anyone… I just wanted to point out, that the British point of view is not ONLY point of view, and it is to be discussed if its the rightful one.

As for history, I can’t recall much British soldiers freeing Poland from Germans… But I can remember many Polish soldiers saving Britain from Germans :slight_smile:

JJSL:
Haha Orys,You are to Kind, but, I feel sorry for the thousands of British and American soldiers buried all over Europe/North Africa, plus all the commonwealth soldiers who also died doing nothing for Poland ?

Yeah, most of them died fighting for Eastern Europe freedom in the battle of Yalta :slight_smile:

Finally, I have the greatest admiration for all the Poles who come to England and fought the Germans, but they had a very good reason to fight, there homeland was gone !!!

Thanks to their effort, along with their collegues from Britain and other countries (France, Czechoslovakia and many, many more) the same could not be said about Britain.

So how is that, remind me, that some countires can fulfill their obligations even if their country no longer physically exist, and some greatest imperiums on the planet cannot?

And on that bombshell it is time to end that pointless discussion :slight_smile:

Yeah, send the Tobester in to do the negotiating, he can make love to their women, eat their fine foods & after a few flagons of gran reserva, we’ll be pals again.

Well orys,

The meeting at Yalta, was Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill and the fact that the Russians had already walked through Poland and put there own Government in power, plus the Russians were about 40/50 miles from Berlin with a military three times greater than Allied forces in the West. So Stalin had them by the Balls…!!!
It was your own countryman who were running Poland with the help of the Russians, it was a done deal and if the Poles had not let the Germans beat them within 3 days of invading Poland, maybe things would have been different ?

Anyway, you got your own back by invading England in the last 5/6 years, so be happy !!

Finally, do you really think that the fall of communism in Poland/East German etc and the Berlin Wall coming down was as a result of the people getting together without help from the West and the good old US of A ? you did’nt win your freedom through your own doing in the War or after, so be thankful and Kiss my English ?*@&

P.s. You did not say anything about the Spanish in regard to Ceuta and Mililla ? strange !!!

Regards

There were Polish pilots flying in the Battle of Britain which could easily have been lost as pilots were thin on the ground or should that be in the air at the time.

If Britain joined the Shenanigan agreement, Then tobacco duty would have to come down to accomodate for the increase in black market products. So that’s why the Government decided not to agree to the EU shenanigan agreement.
They sign up to most shenanigans, But not this one. :smiley:

I came back by mistake, and I will just allow myself to put some facts straight, as you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

JJSL:
The meeting at Yalta, was Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill and the fact that the Russians had already walked through Poland and put there own Government in power

You are mistaken here. You propably think about PKWN, which wasn’t a legitimate goverment. The only legitimate goverment was Polish goverment in exile in London. It was only thanks to Yalta agreements that communists were able to rig the referendum in 1946 and took over.

plus the Russians were about 40/50 miles from Berlin with a military three times greater than Allied forces in the West

That did not stopped West to ask for Greece.

It was your own countryman who were running Poland with the help of the Russians

You are only partially right. The first stalinist goverments were indeed made mostly of soviet puppets, some of which (Konstanty Rokossowski for example) weren’t even really Polish, they were just a Russians of Polish descent that official propaganda was putting for Poles. Rokossowski was there to keep eye on the Polish puppets, as Stalin did not trusted them. Menawhile Polish communist, even the hardliners like WiesÅ‚aw GomuÅ‚ka were in prisons.

Only after Stalin Death that has changed. GomuÅ‚ka was released, then became a first secretary of the Polish communist party and stood against Krushchev, saying that “Poland will have communism in its own way”. (Obviously even if Soviets keep your balls and have overhelming military power, one can gamble and get something his way if one wants and tries it). Since then, the graduate erossion of the Polish communist regime started, thanks to work of many underground activists like some members of my family.

it was a done deal and if the Poles had not let the Germans beat them within 3 days of invading Poland, maybe things would have been different ?

The fact is, the things WERE different. Warsaw surrended after four weeks, Hel on 2nd of October, last regular army unit gave up their weapons on 6th of October. Some never did and, like ORP ORZEŁ submarine made their way to join Royal Navy (this is actually a fascinating story that of ORP Orzeł, really recommend to read en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Orze%C5%82_(1938 regardless of our discussion here and nationality of the sailors, its like the action movie (and actually there was one made years ago).

Back to the point, I recon that 4 weeks of resistance against two biggest military powers of the time, ■■■■ Germany and Soviet Union with the allies doing as much as throwing leaflets is not a bad result for a small, poor country that just 20 years ago regained its independence.

Finally, do you really think that the fall of communism in Poland/East German etc and the Berlin Wall coming down was as a result of the people getting together without help from the West and the good old US of A ?

Of course. Of course there was some help, mostly propaganda and humanitarian (with a really nasty thing of you was promising Hungarians fighting in 1956 uprising that the West will come to their help knowing that no such thing is going to happen, letting all of these people fighting in Budapest to die just to score some points in the Cold War political games). But most of the West was not only not helpful, but even not keen to see Eastern Europe free. So while the whole process begun in 1976 with establishing of KOR in Poland and then with the Chart 77 in Czechoslovakia, and then what started in GdaÅ„sk Shipyard in 1980 ended in fall of the Berlin Wall, the British PM, a lady called Margaret Tatcher was telling Gorbatchev as far as on September 1989 (half year after Tadeusz Mazowiecki became first free PM in Eastern Europe) that “Unification of Germany (…) and fall of Warsaw Pact is not in British interest”. (Source: British archives released in 2009 and published by The Times).

you did’nt win your freedom through your own doing in the War or after,

We did won our freedom through our own doings in the War and 45 years after. It could not be as long, but our allies obviously weren’t interested in fullfilling THEIR part of the deal, as it wasn’t in THEIR interest.

so be thankful and Kiss my English ?*@&

As I just explained, there is not much for what I could be thankful when it comes to the history. Of course I am very thankful for Britain that it allowed me to settle here for the time being, but I don’t think it is your personal decission, and even if it was, I am not THAT thankful to fulfill your ■■■■■■ fantasies.

P.s. You did not say anything about the Spanish in regard to Ceuta and Mililla ? strange !!!

No, because I dont’ know much about Spain, and unlike you, I am not willing to speak about things I have barely any knowledge of. I am pretty sure though, that some Spaniard would like to provide you with HIS version of history - and my pennyworth in this thread was supposed to be just a food for thought that the way as you, British, see it might be not the only view on the subject in question.

Silver_Surfer:
There were Polish pilots flying in the Battle of Britain which could easily have been lost as pilots were thin on the ground or should that be in the air at the time.

I am not sure if I understand you correctly here: do you try to say that these Polish pilots obviously weren’t doing their job defending Poland properly as if they did, they would die in battle? In that case there is a simple explanation: the numbers of the Luftwaffe planes was overhelming. Poland had only 435 fighting planes (that includes both fighters and bombers) and many of them were outdated. Remember, this is the country that only 20 years ago regained its independence, and many of the army equipment that was overtaken from former occupants was lost in Polish-Bolshevik war of 1920 (which we, btw. won, and where British and American volunteers were flying planes for Poland). So we had to build all the army virtually from scratch. Up to 1939 we had what we managed to build, and for planes it was that 435 number. That had to face 1300 German planes, most of them being the most modern military planes of the time. (Altough some of Polish planes were good also, for example bomber “ŁoÅ›”). Anyway, due to overhelming power of Luftwaffe often the situation was that even if the Polish pilot was heading back to his base after victorious battle, he often found it bombarded and unsuitable for landing. Therefore many of Polish planes had to be crashlanded and destroyed in the process, while Pilots came out of that unscratched. Of course many of Polish pilots died during the battle, but they managed to put down over 130 German planes. And still many of planes survived - after surrender, they still managed to transfer almost hundred of army planes to Romania. So when they came to Britain, there were either the best ones, or the most lucky ones. No wonder then, that they became the best RAF unit in the Battle of Britain - simply because they were best of the best from the Polish air forces, and with some battle experience, while many of British pilots were complete novices. Still, if you slagging the best RAF pilots, which happen (for the reason described above) to be Polish guys, you are offensive to all these brave British guys, many of whom were equally good or even better.

Or maybe you refer to the fact that despite of significant losses on the BRitish side, RAF was hesistant to allow Polish pilots to get involved in the fight, despite them being much more experienced than their British counterpart and only after they incidentally bounced on some Germans during one of the training mision and proved themselves worthy they were included in regular defense of Britain? Yes, that was the fact, I think it is due to typical British thinking that “if your experience is not British, it does not counts”. I had been in that position on several occasion and now my gf has the same problem in her jobhunt :wink:

I think it’s mportant to point out that the reef is literally a stones throw from the end of the runway, inside our waters.

Check half way down this page:
blog.geogarage.com/

Sounds like we need a few more patrol craft…

I think the whole point is that not everyone agrees that it’s YOUR waters…

But tell me, isn’t it just a political game to take public attention from more important things, both in Spain and in UK? Disagreement over that bit is nothing new, and I don’t think anyone is going to war about it anytime soon, meantime Spain is barely managing with its economical crisis, and UK is also having some problem, while that all Snowden affair puts some little sins of special services out to the world…

orys:
I think the whole point is that not everyone agrees that it’s YOUR waters…

But tell me, isn’t it just a political game to take public attention from more important things, both in Spain and in UK? Disagreement over that bit is nothing new, and I don’t think anyone is going to war about it anytime soon, meantime Spain is barely managing with its economical crisis, and UK is also having some problem, while that all Snowden affair puts some little sins of special services out to the world…

Closer to the mark.

turnip:

orys:
I think the whole point is that not everyone agrees that it’s YOUR waters…

But tell me, isn’t it just a political game to take public attention from more important things, both in Spain and in UK? Disagreement over that bit is nothing new, and I don’t think anyone is going to war about it anytime soon, meantime Spain is barely managing with its economical crisis, and UK is also having some problem, while that all Snowden affair puts some little sins of special services out to the world…

Closer to the mark.

I am asking genuinely, if you are looking for the second bottom, there is none :slight_smile:

orys:

turnip:

orys:
I think the whole point is that not everyone agrees that it’s YOUR waters…

But tell me, isn’t it just a political game to take public attention from more important things, both in Spain and in UK? Disagreement over that bit is nothing new, and I don’t think anyone is going to war about it anytime soon, meantime Spain is barely managing with its economical crisis, and UK is also having some problem, while that all Snowden affair puts some little sins of special services out to the world…

Closer to the mark.

I am asking genuinely, if you are looking for the second bottom, there is none :slight_smile:

You’ve lost me.

Oh, I guess it’s just me misunderstood you in the first place, I thought that it’s kind of tongue in cheek thing… I am still bad at reading between the verses, so sometimes I look for too much. Sorry and forget :slight_smile:

orys:
Oh, I guess it’s just me misunderstood you in the first place, I thought that it’s kind of tongue in cheek thing… I am still bad at reading between the verses, so sometimes I look for too much. Sorry and forget :slight_smile:

No ! Nothing to read in between the lines. I agree with you it’s political ■■■■■■■■. Spain toadying up to Argentina & deflecting from their own problems. Also the reef has sod all to do with fishing either. But I do think our gang of public schoolboys holding office were surprised by it all.

switchlogic:
I do think Spain is being well over the top but I cant be the only one shouting ‘LIFT THE FUPPING BLOCKS OUT OF THE FUPPING WATER YOU FUPPERS’. Can I? Why don’t we just remove the bloody blocks and we can all go back to the status quo and Spain will be happy with their ‘victory’

because there was the planes flying to close to Spanish Airspace before ROCKGATE and there will be something else after ROCKGATE whether we do anything or not.

They have closed the border more times than I can remember, complained about more than I can remember. I don’t want to bring comparisons with other lumps of rock, but it is easy for a country’s leading politicians to bring patriotic sabre rattling in for a quick vote boost than sort out their real problems.

Orys,i agree with you that the UK has her problems,like Spain but Gibraltar doesn’t,it has virtually no unemployment and that’s why many people who live in La Linea work on the rock.
Its true what Neil says,after this argument is settled there will soon be another because that’s how Spain is over Gibraltar.
Maybe Spain should concentrate on her own problems,like her corrupt Government and corrupt Prime minister.
Just heard via Twitter that a Gib registered car has been set on fire in a car park in La Linea and the Royal Navy arrives on Monday.

The Spanish MAY tax trucks going in too, be careful down there, are Insight still going down there?? :exclamation: :question: :question: :question: