switchlogic:
You seem to be confused between outward and inward trips. No one, including me, said coming into the country empty allows you to do three trips, it doesn’t. But running out empty, and returning loaded does reset the counter. Its the status of the truck entering the country that counts. Not leaving. No one in their right mind would run both ways empty, and if they did they couldn’t expect to be in business long. I’ve not been getting away with anything, I’ve been doing legal cabotage operations often between IRL - UK and often been UK and a third country. I’m loaded now, picked up this trailer in Holyhead bound for Rungis. I will most likely reload in France for the UK, upon entering the UK again the counter is reset and I will most likely load in UK, drop Holyhead and probably do a couple of trips in the UK before either heading back out to France or back to Ireland either of which will reset the counter.
Edit- to remind you this started by you questioning the original poster who entered the country loaded and left empty. My point all along is that there is nothing wrong with this, and if he returns loaded the counter is reset. If he left the UK for a third country (not home) then in that event he could only carry out one cabotage operation in that country before having to leave. It’s all about status upon entry, not exit. From the information given in the original post he has done nothing wrong. Simple.
You are actually agreeing with me (even though you claim not to) - As I have said several times it is not just a case of leaving/returning across the border, it requires the international movement of goods to “wipe the slate” as far as cabotage is concerned (i.e. load in one country, unload in another). While we’re on the subject of what has/has not been said, I have never claimed that what the OP has done amounts to cabotage either.
To be fair I was disagreeing with several things you were saying. We partly ended up disagreeing because you were in this hypothetical world where people run both legs of a journey to a country empty and also because you talked of me ‘getting away with it’ when in fact I’d been running perfectly legally. Everything I said rested on the assumption that like the original poster trucks enter the country loaded, as this is pretty normal.
No, to be fair you were disagreeing with one thing I said. You did this by quoting it (twice, from two different posts of mine) and, in the first instance, by only quoting part of what I said - presumably just so you could disagree with it. I even reiterated the bit about International movement of goods being the important factor in the very next post just to make sure that my position was clear.
But enough already. It’s a New Year. There are more important things to worry about
Entered the U.K. at 19.44 on the 17th February, stopped while on the way to port of exit Killingholme at 15.46 on the 18th February, tried to show DVSA Euro Tunnel ticket, guy not interested, tried to show him C.M.R. for current load, guy not interested, explained fully trucks movements and fact that I had evidence on site to prove it, guy not interested. Cabotage allegation raised, prohibition notice raised, direction notice raised, £300.00 fixed penalty on the way.
DVSA, the guy concerned with this stop and the way it has been handled is a disgrace to your department.
This is the third time and we are still waiting for you to give us a court date for your October allegation, your December allegation, and now this one.
You are not going to be paid, get your arse in gear and lets have it sorted in court.
Other drivers beware, this is the DVSAs way of extorting an easy £300.00 out of you.
DVSA is no longer about road safety its about revenue generation, watch your backs guys.
As I said in an earlier post, there is obviously more to this than we are being told. There is no way DVSA would be doing this just to try and raise £300.
I assume GB Pub and the Maoster are both international drivers
As such: You tell me the cabotage infringement caused by entering the uk at 20.00 the night before, unloading the trailer, picking up two pallets on the same trailer, and going to the port of exit at approx. 14.00 (19 hours later). CMR offered to the DVSA as proof of load, Euro tunnel ticket offered to the DVSA with registration on it as proof of entry. DVSA guy not interested in seeing either.
cheers guys
Innocent:
I assume GB Pub and the Maoster are both international drivers
As such: You tell me the cabotage infringement caused by entering the uk at 20.00 the night before, unloading the trailer, picking up two pallets on the same trailer, and going to the port of exit at approx. 14.00 (19 hours later). CMR offered to the DVSA as proof of load, Euro tunnel ticket offered to the DVSA with registration on it as proof of entry. DVSA guy not interested in seeing either.
cheers guys
As I said it simply doesn’t make any sense, and whilst DVSA can at times be a right pain in the proverbial they aren’t stupid enough to do what you are claiming. Therefore there is obviously more to it and has been from the original post months ago.
Not a lot of help there GB Pub, was hoping for the explanation of why cabotage applies in the situation I’ve described.
Would seem that you are struggling to find justification and again fall back on the “there is obviously more to it and has been from the original post months ago”.
Lets do the math as the yanks would say… Dutch truck enters the uk three times per week, exits the uk three times per week approximately 24 hours later, occasionally loads on the way out, but mostly exits empty. drivers of the Trucks keep copy of last Euro Tunnel crossing and Ferry crossing in cab for DVSA to view.
3 Loads in the uk = NO
7 Days in the uk/away from Holland = NO
GB Pub hasn’t brought anything new to the party, anyone else want to hazard a guess why this is happening?
I would prefer the proof of wrong doing and the rules / regulations we’ve alleged to have deviated from.
As GB Pub said “As I said it simply doesn’t make any sense, and whilst DVSA can at times be a right pain in the proverbial they aren’t stupid enough to do what you are claiming.”
GB Pub, I think you underestimate the capacity of DVSA to disappoint the industry and its members.
Cheers guys
If you’re still unhappy with the response from the Customer Complaints Co-ordinator, you can contact DVSA’s Chief Executive. Our corporate office will independently review your complaint and provide a detailed response.
DVSA Corporate Office
2nd Floor
Berkeley House
Croydon Street
Bristol
BS5 0DA
Email vosa.corporateoffice@vosa.gsi.gov.uk
Phone
0117 954 3274
.
Taking things further
If you’re not happy with the response from our Chief Executive’s office you can ask us to pass your complaint to the Independent Complaints Assessor (ICA). See the section on ‘Taking things further’ for information on how to do this."
Then you can always lobby your local MP or MEP or try the Dutch version of the RHA.
Cheers Bullitt, already ongoing, but these guys at DVSA issue the prohibitions and fixed penalties without proof of the alleged offence, they then have a 6 month time frame to act upon these allegations if you contest them, during which time you are treated as guilty, your OCRSs fall through the floor, DVSA target vehicles based on OCRSs and you are targeted for additional attention.
Example one:
The current system accuses you of cabotage based on a persons opinion rather that facts and proof, even after offering the crossing ticket and current CMR as proof of innocence, imposes prohibitions that are unwarranted, imposes a direction notice to go to nearest port that is unlawful and put the onus on the haulier to prove that he is not liable.
By this time the damage is done. the vehicle and driver instead of carrying on their legitimate lawful duties are frog marched to a port and thrown out of the U.K.
IF the DVSA has proof of the offence, I totally agree with their action, but I cannot support such action when they haven’t, and neither can the DVSA justify their actions in my view.
Example two:
Driver travels from ■■? to ■■? to meet and take over a truck, driver starts driving duties and drives to port of exit, truck is stopped by DVSA and issued fixed penalty notice for fail to keep accurate records (due to fact that the travelling time was not noted on current tacho card)
I know what you are going to say… The driver should have made a manual entry on the reverse of the card to show his travelling time before he put it in the head. I totally agree…but no offence has been committed by not doing this.
Nowhere in the current rules and regs (including Article 6(5) of EC561/2006 as quoted by DVSA on prohibition notice) does it say that you must do this at the start of your day or at any specific time.
All it does say is that you must record this time. So as the tacho card is not complete until its taken out at the end of the shift, and as you have the opportunity to make such entries at that time or any time before, you can only be deemed to have failed to keep an accurate record once the card has been completed.
It would seem that some DVSA staff act based upon their opinions and interpretations of the rules and regs rather than the facts, proof, and the actual content of the rules and regs.
Before you go off on one and accuse me of being a legal boffin or nit picking, in these situations we are either right or wrong, when I’m wrong, I’ll take the hit, pay up and move on, but when I’m right, or think I’m right I’ll contest the allegations / seek clarification and proof of guilt. Cabotage at £300.00 each time, that’s a nice little earner for DVSA because a lot of companies will just pay up.
Innocent:
What else you want / need to know FlyByNight?
To put it bluntly - something you have done has put you on the DVSA radar. I think you know what that “something” is, although you may be unwilling to reveal it here.
This business with the manual entries covering the journey to the vehicle: The letter of the law may or may not require those entries to be made before commencing driving, although similar entries certainly are required to be made straight away when they relate to “unforseen events”, so I would say the spirit of the law is that they should be made straight away (indeed, the digital tachograph appears to be designed to operate only in this manner).
So to answer your question - albeit directed at another contributor - what is your previous history of encounters with DVSA/VOSA?
Roymondo
thanks for the constructive comments
Cabotage allegation October 2014
Cabotage allegation December 2014
Cabotage allegation February 2015
All Immingham, all been denied with supporting evidence, CMRs, Train crossings, Ferry records, all being contested
Last allegation DVSA stopper was offered CMR and Euro Tunnel ticket with reg on it proving entry into the UK less than 19 Hours earlier, officer didn’t want to know, truck directed to port to leave UK… he was going there anyway.
6 months for DVSA to act on these allegations in the meantime we are “on the radar as you say”.
We have the proof of no wrong doing, DVSA have copies of that proof for the first two allegations, would not view our proof at the stop site on the third one and we await the fixed penalty for this one, at which point we will try again to get notice taken of our proof.
During which time the ‘system’ treats you as guilty until proved innocent AND puts the burden of proving your innocence on you. It should be that you are innocent until proven guilty.
I really can’t wait for others to be ‘caught’ this way and start kicking off.
it will happen if you head to Killingholme.
I have already agreed that the sensible approach is to record prior duty/driving time on the card prior to starting the shift, I would save our situation, and its the way I do it. instructions have been given to the other drivers so should not happen in the future. However no offence was committed by not doing it.
Cheers Tim 85, I’ve got my legal guys on it and we’ll fight every unfounded/unproven allegation. As I’ve said before, if we’re guilty we’ll pay up and move on. But DVSA will not get a penny when we’re innocent.
Innocent:
Cheers Tim 85, I’ve got my legal guys on it and we’ll fight every unfounded/unproven allegation. As I’ve said before, if we’re guilty we’ll pay up and move on. But DVSA will not get a penny when we’re innocent.
