Are your trucks right hand drive?? Plenty of RHD Dutch registered trucks running about and VOSA hate them and will do anything they can to put them out of business. As people who know me know, I drove Dutch registered for 15 years back and forth to Europe. The first 13 years in a RHD and I was always getting pulled especially once the cabotage came back in. Then I managed to get a LHD and that was that. Never got stopped again.
No they are Left hand drive. we both know it should make no difference, but we also know that VOSA have their own agenda AND since they are now self funded instead of government funded the pressure is on to impose penalty notices. The days of reasonable enquiries and actions during a routine stop seem to have gone. Now you are presumed guilty UNTIL YOU prove yourself innocent, and even then the paperwork is passed to their ‘office’ where the evidence is ignored and penalty notices issued.
I think they expect our Dutch company to roll over and take it, but a £300.00 penalty for the offence when we are 100% innocent, followed by another One recently, will be fought all the way. ALL our costs of defending these false allegations will be claimed against them, so it is going to cost them a lot of money I’m afraid.
Self funded? Funds from Graduated Fixed Penalties are paid straight to HM Courts Service. If the fixed penalty is not accepted and the case goes to court, any fines etc again go to HM Courts Service. There may be “prosecution costs” awarded, but if they are, these reflect only the additional costs incurred in e.g. specialist analysis services etc. There is no incentive for DVSA to issue tickets etc for the purpose of generating income. The enforcement side of DVSA’a work is funded from central government (and O-licence fees), while the driving standards side is funded from driving test fees.
Are you sure Roymondo? I only query it because IIRC there was a hullabulloo in the recent past when it was said that VOSA were now self funding.
So you’re saying the tax payer will be funding the courts and fighting the cabotage case, i’ll be defending it as unfounded and claiming my costs of doing so. So the tax payer gets to foot the bill!! Complete waste of time and money, but that’s the way they seem to want it.
I still think you’ll find VOSA are now a ‘business’ and are desperate to ‘balance the books’ at the expense of due process, impartiality, and innocence.
I would be interested to know how many external hauliers are being hit with this allegation. maybe time for a freedom of information request on the subject.
About 5 years ago, they took a colleague of mine on the same firm as me to court because he refused to pay the fine etc. They had held him on the M27 for 6 hours. Eventually they let him go and he duly went to court. His crime■■? Not displaying an ‘O’ Licence!! Why not?? He was driving a Dutch registered truck pulling a Dutch trailer. The court case lasted less than 5 minutes and he got substantial costs. Mr VOSA also had an extremely red face.
sounds about right, as ever you get the good ones and the bad ones. I’ll potentially be coming from Holland to defend these allegations, my truck will be parked up or manned by a relief driver, my solicitor will be costing a packet and VOSA will have to foot the bill.
it would be easier and cheaper for all concerned just to pay the £300.00, but its a matter of principle, so onward!!
I would check with your solicitor before assuming that anyone other than you is going to be footing that particular bill. There is no automatic right to full reimbursement of legal costs in a Magistrates court case (or Crown Court if it goes to appeal) in the event of a not-guilty verdict. In essence, the amount will be limited to the rates that would be paid under “legal aid”.
sounds as if you know what you’re on about. I’ve taken the steps of giving VOSA all the evidence they need not to proceed and warned them that if they do I will claim all costs incurred due to them calling it wrong and not cancelling the action once they had the information. will see what happens cheers
Roymondo:
You appear to think that simply leaving the UK and returning to mainland Europe “wipes the slate” as far as cabotage is concerned - I don’t think that is true.
It is, you don’t have to go to your home country, just a third country. I sometimes go a month and more without going back to Ireland (trucks home), but its legal because I run back and forth to continent as well as the UK runs I do.
switchlogic:
Roymondo:
You appear to think that simply leaving the UK and returning to mainland Europe “wipes the slate” as far as cabotage is concerned - I don’t think that is true.It is, you don’t have to go to your home country, just a third country. I sometimes go a month and more without going back to Ireland (trucks home), but its legal because I run back and forth to continent as well as the UK runs I do.
But you must also do an International movement of goods - empty running from one country into another does not (as far as I understand it) “wipe the slate”
From the EU website:
Article 8 of the Regulation provides that every haulier is entitled to perform up to three cabotage operations within a seven day period starting the day after the unloading of the international transport.
A haulier may decide to carry out one, two or all three cabotage operations in different Member States and not necessarily the Member State in which the international transport was delivered. In this case only one cabotage operation is allowed in a given Member State to be carried out within three days of entering that Member State without cargo.
It is the international movement of goods that resets the cabotage counter, not the fact that the vehicle leaves one country and enters another (or even returns to its home country).
He came over loaded though, not empty. He was returning empty therefore he would have been entitled to do three trips and running back empty would be fine, it clearly says entering the country empty, not leaving, presumably to stop companies coming over for the sole aim of doing internal work. I see nothing in what you quoted that says returning empty does not ‘reset the counter’. Simply that coming over empty means you can only do one internal instead of the usual three
It rather depends on what other jobs he has done in the past few days (even in other countries). Hence the requirement to see more than just ferry/tunnel tickets. But my point remains - simply returning to mainland Europe (or even going back to his base in Holland) does not by itself “wipe the slate”.
It’s not the leaving that resets the counter… it’s entry into the country – and the number of cabotage jobs depends on whether he entered empty or loaded. Maybe that’s what you’re thinking of? In either case, considering the context of his normal work (entering loaded every time), I see no reason why they’d even think of accusing him of cabotage. Having said that, it’s a question if the driver produced the CMR relevant to his entry into UK which should have been sufficient proof that the counter was reset… (train ticket just being yet additional supporting document establishing the timeline). As you mentioned, documents should have been with the driver so VOSA could establish the timeline as well as number of jobs done in the country (if any!)
FlyByNight:
It’s not the leaving that resets the counter… it’s entry into the country – and the number of cabotage jobs depends on whether he entered empty or loaded.
That number could well be zero if he has already done three of them in other countries. It’s not entering or leaving the country that resets the counter - It is completing an international job (i.e. loading in one country and unloading those goods in another). e.g. If he loaded in Holland, went and unloaded in Belgium., did a couple of cabotage jobs there, then another in France on his way to the Channel, he would not be permitted to do another one here in UK (and for the avoidance of doubt, I know that’s not what has happened on this occasion - but it provides a clear pointer as to why they want to see more than just ferry/tunnel tickets).
Well, I think you have it badly wrong, Mr Roymondo and hopefully, the only person whose word I take as gospel may come along and clear this up.
Where is the Coffee Man■■?
I agree with TheBear…two jobs in BE + one is FR does not equal three-in-seven… separate counter for each member state… so in your example, if going empty from FR to UK, you’d still be able to do one-in-three in UK. it would be good if you could make money doing that kind of work in today’s market, though.
Roymondo:
But my point remains - simply returning to mainland Europe (or even going back to his base in Holland) does not by itself “wipe the slate”.
In your opinion. I’ve not seen anything to say it doesn’t and in my opinion it does. Cabotage concerns work done within the borders of another country, so when I load in the UK and tip in France for instance that isnt cabotage nor will it be counted as such for the prose of counting the number of trips. If I loaded Manchester and w London then it would be as I’m in an Irish truck. An interesting point also is for us picking up a trailer in Holyhead and tipping in UK is seen as cabotage. Last year we had a breakdown so I went to take the trailer of the other chap, but it was my fourth trip within the UK and sods law I got pulled by VOSA in Holyhead who gave me a prohibition saying I had to leave the country by the nearest port. Which I did and shipped straight back to Ireland, resetting the counter, I then shipped back into UK on next ferry
switchlogic:
Roymondo:
But my point remains - simply returning to mainland Europe (or even going back to his base in Holland) does not by itself “wipe the slate”.In your opinion. I’ve not seen anything to say it doesn’t and in my opinion it does.
Article 8 of EC 1072/2009 - which you can read here: eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 087:EN:PDF
Clearly states that the 7 days allowed for cabotage operations commences upon the unloading of an incoming international movement (International movements are defined elsewhere within the document - in essence goods loaded in one country and unloaded in another). It makes no allowance at all for the seven days (or three permitted cabotage operations) to be “reset” by simply leaving the country or nipping back home and returning unladen - It must involve moving a load of some sort from one country to another.
The fact that you’ve been able to get away with it doesn’t make it lawful.
The same document also clearly states that cabotage operations will only be regarded as lawful if the haulier produces clear evidence, with a list of what is required. Which explains why DVSA wanted more than just a ferry/tunnel docket.
It’s all there in black and white, and stated in pretty clear language.
You seem to be confused between outward and inward trips. No one, including me, said coming into the country empty allows you to do three trips, it doesn’t. But running out empty, and returning loaded does reset the counter. Its the status of the truck entering the country that counts. Not leaving. No one in their right mind would run both ways empty, and if they did they couldn’t expect to be in business long. I’ve not been getting away with anything, I’ve been doing legal cabotage operations often between IRL - UK and often been UK and a third country. I’m loaded now, picked up this trailer in Holyhead bound for Rungis. I will most likely reload in France for the UK, upon entering the UK again the counter is reset and I will most likely load in UK, drop Holyhead and probably do a couple of trips in the UK before either heading back out to France or back to Ireland either of which will reset the counter.
Edit- to remind you this started by you questioning the original poster who entered the country loaded and left empty. My point all along is that there is nothing wrong with this, and if he returns loaded the counter is reset. If he left the UK for a third country (not home) then in that event he could only carry out one cabotage operation in that country before having to leave. It’s all about status upon entry, not exit. From the information given in the original post he has done nothing wrong. Simple.