I think I have been using the POA button incorrectly and would like some considered opinion by others who are far more experienced on digital tacho’s.
The scenario is this,
Start night shift at 21:00 hours, after checks etc on other work setting, set off, drive for 34 minutes to loading point, after other work opening curtains etc switch to PAO i’m in the cab doing nothing for about 1 hour, when i’m loaded, switch back to other work and close curtains etc. Set off, note the driving time has gone back to 0. feeling rather smug drive for 3 hours 56 minuits to destination, again other work till curtains opened then take my break usually more than an hour. When unloaded set to other work close curtains and set off back to depot which takes 4 hours 17 minutes, apart from tacho now flashing take 1st break consider i’ve not broken any rules.
Wrong. After 2 months of this and regular tacho down loads i’ve now been told that my card has numerous driving infringments for driving over 4 hours 30. I’ve worked out that although the driving time has gone back to 0 after my POA it actually hasn’t internally because this is not considered a proper break. obviously if stopped by vosa they’ll jump straight on to this. How long will it be before these infringments are considered spent? and should i now use break instead of POA and get away with it?. I did ask about a month ago if I was breaking any rules and never got an answer, obviously they have’nt been checking either.
To prevent your POA resetting your driving time switch it off at 28/29 minutes, then other work for a minute then switch POA back on.
It resets driving time because the software is cocked up. I know a lot of drivers who have been caught out.
Thing is I can’t see what you’re doing wrong :S I know that if you leave it on POA for too long it resets you’re driving on the trucks displays and all…but if you just write down the first period of driving down right after you stop, say 47 mins, then you know that you can only do 3 hours 43…so only do 3 hours 40 and you wont have a problem.
The only thing I can think of is that as you’re taking the first 4:30 driving to its limit, coz of its stupid “linear time”, its popping you over the threshold…Other than that I can’t see whats going wrong :S
I never use poa, why don’t you have 2 half hour breaks that will satisfy wtd and vosa.
rorymotorbiker:
I think I have been using the POA button incorrectly and would like some considered opinion by others who are far more experienced on digital tacho’s.
The scenario is this,
Start night shift at 21:00 hours, after checks etc on other work setting, set off, drive for 34 minutes to loading point, after other work opening curtains etc switch to PAO i’m in the cab doing nothing for about 1 hour, when i’m loaded, switch back to other work and close curtains etc. Set off, note the driving time has gone back to 0. feeling rather smug drive for 3 hours 56 minuits to destination, again other work till curtains opened then take my break usually more than an hour.
There’s one of your problems right there, the bits in red. Driving 34 minutes and then 3 hours 56 minutes means you have completed 4.5 hours driving and have only one legal option at that point and that is to take a break. However you are doing other work before taking the break and that means by the time you begin your break you have an infringement.
Article 7
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall
take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes,
unless he takes a rest period.
That’s the regulations on break and note it says after 4.5 hours driving a driver shall take a break and it does not say after 4.5 hours driving a driver shall take a break or do other work. You hit exactly 4.5 hours driving and it is either break or rest and nothing else.
It’s nuts because you could load for an hour, drive for 4.5 hours then take a break and that would be legal. However, drive for 4.5 hours, load for an hour, then take a break and that is illegal. That’s just the way the regulations are we just have to work within them.
The other reason you are probably getting infringements is because you are using POA and it is resetting the drive time clock and on occasions when you do more than 34 minutes and/or more than 3 hours 56 minutes driving you will be going over the 4.5 hours.
The easiest solution is to stop using POA and use break instead, if a period qualifies for POA it will qualify as break. That will give you a nice tacho break after your first driving stint and again after the second and will keep you legal.
rorymotorbiker:
How long will it be before these infringments are considered spent?
Six months.
Might be a daft question but what does POA stand for? 
Period of availability.
markthemod:
Might be a daft question but what does POA stand for?
Period Of Availability.
edit:
Sorry I never noticed it was already answered 
markthemod:
Might be a daft question but what does POA stand for?
Thanks Mark, I didn’t like to ask 
Coffeeholic:
rorymotorbiker:
I think I have been using the POA button incorrectly and would like some considered opinion by others who are far more experienced on digital tacho’s.
The scenario is this,
Start night shift at 21:00 hours, after checks etc on other work setting, set off, drive for 34 minutes to loading point, after other work opening curtains etc switch to PAO i’m in the cab doing nothing for about 1 hour, when i’m loaded, switch back to other work and close curtains etc. Set off, note the driving time has gone back to 0. feeling rather smug drive for 3 hours 56 minuits to destination, again other work till curtains opened then take my break usually more than an hour.There’s one of your problems right there, the bits in red. Driving 34 minutes and then 3 hours 56 minutes means you have completed 4.5 hours driving and have only one legal option at that point and that is to take a break. However you are doing other work before taking the break and that means by the time you begin your break you have an infringement.
Article 7
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall
take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes,
unless he takes a rest period.That’s the regulations on break and note it says after 4.5 hours driving a driver shall take a break and it does not say after 4.5 hours driving a driver shall take a break or do other work. You hit exactly 4.5 hours driving and it is either break or rest and nothing else.
It’s nuts because you could load for an hour, drive for 4.5 hours then take a break and that would be legal. However, drive for 4.5 hours, load for an hour, then take a break and that is illegal. That’s just the way the regulations are we just have to work within them.
The other reason you are probably getting infringements is because you are using POA and it is resetting the drive time clock and on occasions when you do more than 34 minutes and/or more than 3 hours 56 minutes driving you will be going over the 4.5 hours.
The easiest solution is to stop using POA and use break instead, if a period qualifies for POA it will qualify as break. That will give you a nice tacho break after your first driving stint and again after the second and will keep you legal.
rorymotorbiker:
How long will it be before these infringments are considered spent?Six months.
That’s all well and good but companies like Tossco, for example, are insisting on drivers using POA as opposed to break! WTD and all that bollox!
Ok I always use break as I’m on a fixed wage so I havn’t really considered what effect POA has on hours etc.
Could someone please explain what the difference is between using POA and break? Also what effect this would have on what hours can be worked etc.
I had a fairly long conversation last year with a VOSA agent who was telling me I should use POA instead of break when being unloaded, I told him that I believed that there was no time when I HAVE to use POA as any time that qualifies for POA also qualifies for break. I told him that I will only take REST whilst on the bay if I have agreed with the loader that I can go away for three hours if I want to, the VOSA bloke then told me that theres no difference between the definition of break and rest 
. It worries me that the people enforcing these laws seem not to have much idea themselves.
schrodingers cat:
Ok I always use break as I’m on a fixed wage so I havn’t really considered what effect POA has on hours etc.Could someone please explain what the difference is between using POA and break? Also what effect this would have on what hours can be worked etc.
No difference. The only time it really makes sense to use POA is if you don’t get paid breaks for some reason. There is also the case if you don’t want to complete a 45 minute break to avoid having to take another break later in the day and finishing later as a result, but you could just stick it on other work to avoid that.
schrodingers cat:
I had a fairly long conversation last year with a VOSA agent who was telling me I should use POA instead of break when being unloaded, I told him that I believed that there was no time when I HAVE to use POA as any time that qualifies for POA also qualifies for break. I told him that I will only take REST whilst on the bay if I have agreed with the loader that I can go away for three hours if I want to, the VOSA bloke then told me that theres no difference between the definition of break and rest
He’s a ■■■■. If you don’t know how long you will be on the bay it can’t be POA. And as for the no difference thing, then he is a roaster.
44 Tonne Ton:
Coffeeholic:
The easiest solution is to stop using POA and use break instead, if a period qualifies for POA it will qualify as break. That will give you a nice tacho break after your first driving stint and again after the second and will keep you legal.That’s all well and good but companies like Tossco, for example, are insisting on drivers using POA as opposed to break! WTD and all that bollox!
They can’t. They can request you book it when the legal requirements are met in order for you to do so but insist, not a chance and no legal standing to back them up. You have to know the likely duration in advance before you can book POA so you just say you did not know and it is therefore not legal to book POA. Sorted.
Coffeeholic:
44 Tonne Ton:
Coffeeholic:
The easiest solution is to stop using POA and use break instead, if a period qualifies for POA it will qualify as break. That will give you a nice tacho break after your first driving stint and again after the second and will keep you legal.That’s all well and good but companies like Tossco, for example, are insisting on drivers using POA as opposed to break! WTD and all that bollox!
They can’t. They can request you book it when the legal requirements are met in order for you to do so but insist, not a chance and no legal standing to back them up. You have to know the likely duration in advance before you can book POA so you just say you did not know and it is therefore not legal to book POA. Sorted.
If only it was that simple in reality…
how very interesting (in the words of miss Marple) spoke to an ex Stobbart driver this morning who told me they are told to use POA but that there were a number of drivers being prosecuted for missuse of POA time.
Dammed if you do Dammed if you dont innit
rorymotorbiker:
how very interesting (in the words of miss Marple) spoke to an ex Stobbart driver this morning who told me they are told to use POA but that there were a number of drivers being prosecuted for missuse of POA time.
Dammed if you do Dammed if you dont innit
Just be careful what you are told by Stobart drivers, ex or not 
rorymotorbiker:
how very interesting (in the words of miss Marple) spoke to an ex Stobbart driver this morning who told me they are told to use POA but that there were a number of drivers being prosecuted for missuse of POA time.
Dammed if you do Dammed if you dont innit
Not really. No one can tell you to use POA. They can ask you to use it where possible but they cannot tell you to use it. You have to know the likely duration in advance and if you don’t know that then it doesn’t matter how much they tell you to use it, you can’t. I’ve never booked a minutes POA since it came into being and I never will.
I’d argue that POA is can hardly ever be used anyway. The rule says that it’s a period of waiting that’s known in advance. But how how can you ‘know’ anything, really, about how long you will be waiting? If someone says “it’ll be about 20 mins”, do you actually ‘know’ it will be that long? The rule doesn’t say “if are you led to believe” or “to the best of your knowledge”, it uses the specific word “known”.
I don’t understand POA. If you’re not driving or doing other work, then surely you’re are on a break. Having a POA means you are not working or driving so why not call it a break? If you have a break of 14 minutes or 29 minutes or 44 minutes then sure, it won’t count as a full break, but it won’t count as duty time either.
I’m ignorant because I have never had to use POA. Can someone please explain it?
Biscuits:
I’d argue that POA is can hardly ever be used anyway. The rule says that it’s a period of waiting that’s known in advance. But how how can you ‘know’ anything, really, about how long you will be waiting? If someone says “it’ll be about 20 mins”, do you actually ‘know’ it will be that long? The rule doesn’t say “if are you led to believe” or “to the best of your knowledge”, it uses the specific word “known”.
I’d say the text in the quote taken from the RT(WT)R 2005 covers it quite well 
Periods of availability
6. - (1) A period shall not be treated as a period of availability
unless the mobile worker knows before the start of the relevant period
about that period of availability and its reasonably foreseeable
duration.