Squiddy:
I don’t understand POA. If you’re not driving or doing other work, then surely you’re are on a break. Having a POA means you are not working or driving so why not call it a break? If you have a break of 14 minutes or 29 minutes or 44 minutes then sure, it won’t count as a full break, but it won’t count as duty time either.
Exactly, it’s pointless using it. Unless you don’t for some reason get paid for breaks, in which case it’s time to change job or just leave it on other work.
tachograph:
Biscuits:
I’d argue that POA is can hardly ever be used anyway. The rule says that it’s a period of waiting that’s known in advance. But how how can you ‘know’ anything, really, about how long you will be waiting? If someone says “it’ll be about 20 mins”, do you actually ‘know’ it will be that long? The rule doesn’t say “if are you led to believe” or “to the best of your knowledge”, it uses the specific word “known”.
I’d say the text in the quote taken from the RT(WT)R 2005 covers it quite well 
Periods of availability
6. - (1) A period shall not be treated as a period of availability
unless the mobile worker knows before the start of the relevant period
about that period of availability and its reasonably foreseeable
duration.
I know when I depart that when I reach the depot it will take between 30 minutes and 45 minutes to unload and sort the paper work. Does this mean when I tip I should set the tacho to POA instead of break? Sometimes I help unload in which case it should be ‘other work’ but if I leave them to unload and just drink tea surely this is classed as a break instead of POA regardless of whether I knew I would be unable to move for up to 45 minutes?
Squiddy:
tachograph:
Biscuits:
I’d argue that POA is can hardly ever be used anyway. The rule says that it’s a period of waiting that’s known in advance. But how how can you ‘know’ anything, really, about how long you will be waiting? If someone says “it’ll be about 20 mins”, do you actually ‘know’ it will be that long? The rule doesn’t say “if are you led to believe” or “to the best of your knowledge”, it uses the specific word “known”.
I’d say the text in the quote taken from the RT(WT)R 2005 covers it quite well
Periods of availability
6. - (1) A period shall not be treated as a period of availability
unless the mobile worker knows before the start of the relevant period
about that period of availability and its reasonably foreseeable
duration.
I know when I depart that when I reach the depot it will take between 30 minutes and 45 minutes to unload and sort the paper work. Does this mean when I tip I should set the tacho to POA instead of break? Sometimes I help unload in which case it should be ‘other work’ but if I leave them to unload and just drink tea surely this is classed as a break instead of POA regardless of whether I knew I would be unable to move for up to 45 minutes?
I’d say you could use either POA or break but unless you don’t get paid for breaks and you want to keep your working time down use break.
I’m not sanctioning POA mate I’m just pointing out that you can legally use POA if the circumstances are right, I don’t use it either
I get paid a flat rate regardless of the hours I do so I make every effort to keep my hours as short as possible.
Forgive my ignorance, but does a 45 minute POA count as a 45 minute break for driving hours (and a 30 min break for WTD)?
Squiddy:
Forgive my ignorance, but does a 45 minute POA count as a 45 minute break for driving hours (and a 30 min break for WTD)?
No, break is a break and POA isn’t. 
The only time POA counts as break is in multi-manning operations because the card in position 2 cannot record break while the vehicle is moving. In that situation the first 45 minutes of POA is assumed to be break for that driver.
We are told to use it, we do get paid breaks. We get paid a 60 minute break and if you go over 12 hours its a 90 minute break. The reason we are told to use it is because we do a lot of hours and we need to keep our averages under 48 hours. Some guys use more than others to get an extra shift every other weekend. I know one guy who grossly misuses it so he can max his hours ie POA everything including checks etc and it has never once come up on digital analysis but it has come up on analysis with paper charts.
All your big outfits want you to use POA rather than break, i would have thought it would be the same for coffee as he works for one of the big names but it seems not.
I’ve given up using poa although we are encouraged to use it, and our timesheets have a box to write it down plus an explaination of the delay ((zb)ck that). A good example would be that us 6wheeler drivers do muck collections from smaller sites where mini diggers are used. Loading times can be upto half an hour, but I say that I’m working during this time as we’re expected to make sure no crap such as tree roots, asbestos etc gets loaded on and we have to keep an eye on our weighloaders. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve forgotten to switch the mode over (analogue) so now I don’t bother. I only do 50 hours a week except for odd Saturday mornings (about 4 hours) so no need for poa.
merc0447:
All your big outfits want you to use POA rather than break, i would have thought it would be the same for coffee as he works for one of the big names but it seems not.
What they might want me to do and what I actually do are not necessarily related. They cannot tell me to use POA when I legally cannot do so. Hardly any of the lads I work with use POA, in fact I don’t think any of them do. I know a couple of the agency drivers do but there is no reason for them to do so. Our time sheets do have a little box to mark down the amount of POA each day but mine are always blank.
This is my time sheet for this week and like all my time sheets it has not a minutes POA on it.
We dont use it. I think its just confusing and a lot of the time not necessary. If we arent driving then the tacho is on other work or break.
Coffeeholic:
merc0447:
All your big outfits want you to use POA rather than break, i would have thought it would be the same for coffee as he works for one of the big names but it seems not.
What they might want me to do and what I actually do are not necessarily related. They cannot tell me to use POA when I legally cannot do so. Hardly any of the lads I work with use POA, in fact I don’t think any of them do. I know a couple of the agency drivers do but there is no reason for them to do so. Our time sheets do have a little box to mark down the amount of POA each day but mine are always blank.
This is my time sheet for this week and like all my time sheets it has not a minutes POA on it.
0
Looks like your doing similar hours to me but were only allowed to book 2 x 45 breaks on our timesheets,when were waiting to load/unload we book POA as long as were told how long the delay will be…(each load takes 30 mins to tip…4 loads in front of you…2 hours POA)
Untill they sort the softwear out so it can tell the differance between poa and break i wont use poa whats the point ?
Being reading up on the use of POA and VOSA info states; that the symbol on the tacho covers periods of waiting time, the duration of which is known about in advance. Examples of what might count as a period of availability (POA) are accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing or waiting while other works load/unload your vehicle. For mobile workers driving in a team, a POA would also include time spent sitting next to the other driver while the vehicle is in motion (unless taking a break or performing other work, i.e. navigation.
Croners also states that POA cannot count as a break unless the driver has access to a rest/ canteen facilities.
Ubiquitous:
Croners also states that POA cannot count as a break unless the driver has access to a rest/ canteen facilities.
Sorry but that nonsense, POA cannot count as break at any-time though VOSA will regard the first 45 minutes of POA as break when multi-manning and your in the passenger seat, and there’s no rule that says you should have access to a canteen for a break to be legal
Cut out the all the BS, just use working and break modes (and driving mode if you’re driving a real oldie
