There’s at least as many wealthy people in trouble with drinking and taking drugs as poor people. They can afford more drugs.
And if you count all of the drug addicts/alcoholics and gambling addicts as a population of the country how much are we looking at? 0.1%? 2%? It’s an awful way to make policy isn’t it. FInd the worst 0.5% of the population and then assume everyone elses who is poor will behave just like them.
JeffA:
There’s at least as many wealthy people in trouble with drinking and taking drugs as poor people. They can afford more drugs.And if you count all of the drug addicts/alcoholics and gambling addicts as a population of the country how much are we looking at? 0.1%? 2%? It’s an awful way to make policy isn’t it. FInd the worst 0.5% of the population and then assume everyone elses who is poor will behave just like them.
Right wing xenophobic tory dog whistle politics . Terrible country .
Franglais:
So lets *see* if such a scheme can work in the UK then? There may well be issues, be amazing if there werent, but I reckon it is better to give this a fair shot.
I doubt the trials will work out well, but if it were to become a reality I could certainly use it very productively
Franglais:
Are you suggesting that the NE is particularly badly off because they as a group are particularly inept at managing money?
Because you have seen examples of it?
The NE deprivation is documented by ONS etc and is not up for debate. The basic northern attitude is very much “live for today” which does not sit well with good fiscal management, and the lower the socio-economic status, the less evident is sound fiscal management.
Franglais:
From your link:
“It found that in the wider North East, 54.6% of homes were classed as deprived in at least one of the four dimensions used to classify deprivation. That was the highest rate in England and Wales. The nationwide average was 51.7%”.
A bit worse off, yes. But, surely you arent suggesting that is because they are more feckless up there? Isnt it because there is economic activity there?
Is an area worse off because the people are wasteful with money, or because they have less of it?
Feckless? That is not a word I would use. We have the traditional working class in the sense of hard-working down to earth people, but often these folk will be living side-by-side with (i) members of the “underclass”, where benefits are a lifestyle choice, often a multigenerational lifestyle choice, and/or (ii) enclaves of “non-native UK residents”: due to property prices being low in Middlesbrough it is one of the prime spots for the government to relocate people to.
If people can
t manage on monthly UBI then why would they manage on monthly salary? As I said the *period of payment* makes no difference to the idea of UBI. Argue that those with addictions need to help with their financial management, and Ill agree. But that is again irrelevant, to the idea of UBI.
I disagree entirely, you and I and many others may be adept at monthly budgeting, other niches of society simply cannot handle it.
UBI isn
t meant to be an upgraded dole payment. It isnt just for the feckless, druggies, layabouts etc.
There is a minority who do need help with cash, and that is the same whether they get dole, UBI, or a big win on the pools.
It will need to be more common before older attitudes to employment change maybe.
It does not matter what it is called, nor what the intentions behind it are (the road to hell allegedly being paved with good intentions) , it’s money that has not been earned, and what has not been earned will not be properly appreciated for what it represents nor will it be appropriately handled.
I was attempting at humour, not to be patronising, but I don`t think you are seeing the way this could go in the future.
I’ll let "the clue is in the name " go, but just because you have your vision of how it could go, does not mean that alternative visions of the future are not equally possible. I can see a whole range of potential problems, but I don’t think you have the same experiences of human nature that I have in order to visualise these problems.
OwenMoney:
Is the mouse in your top pocket an English expression as I don’t understand it .
I’ve never heard it in 60 years of life in the UK, it might be a localised saying for a particular area, but it is certainly not common across the country, and I can find no mention of it in reliable UK-based sources of sayings and idioms etc, such as those from Oxford or Cambridge, or Collins. TBH it just makes me think of The Green Mile movie.
OwenMoney:
Right wing xenophobic tory dog whistle politics . Terrible country .
Is that sarcasm/humour or are you being serious?
Zac_A:
OwenMoney:
Is the mouse in your top pocket an English expression as I don’t understand it .I’ve never heard it in 60 years of life in the UK, it might be a localised saying for a particular area, but it is certainly not common across the country, and I can find no mention of it in reliable UK-based sources of sayings and idioms etc, such as those from Oxford or Cambridge, or Collins. TBH it just makes me think of The Green Mile movie.
I think I saw a bloke in a war movie who used to keep a mouse in his top pocket and talk to it.
OwenMoney:
JeffA:
There’s at least as many wealthy people in trouble with drinking and taking drugs as poor people. They can afford more drugs.And if you count all of the drug addicts/alcoholics and gambling addicts as a population of the country how much are we looking at? 0.1%? 2%? It’s an awful way to make policy isn’t it. FInd the worst 0.5% of the population and then assume everyone elses who is poor will behave just like them.
Right wing xenophobic tory dog whistle politics . Terrible country .
The worst Labour dog whistle politics was when someone took too many magic mushrooms and ran down the street with his underpants on his head. Caroline Flint said “We can’t have this” and then proceeded to ban mushrooms completely - that period from 2004-07 when mushrooms were legal was the best time of my life. That’s when I turned my back on the labour party. (I’ve turned my back on all the parties tho)
Just because of one idiot - they say that’s “proof” that everyone will run down the street with his underpants on his head.
If this ever happens ---- The tories will say that 30 people - For want of a better euphemism – P ‘’‘’ d it up against the wall.
Then the trial is declared a failure. The Murdoch and Mail will support that in the rags, so people like knobroy believe it.
One tory said it “does you good” to do 12 hours minimum wage (I think his dad had about 10 million quid)
Unions will surely put in for pay rises that restore the DIFFERENTIAL…
Hard-to-fill jobs will be even harder to fill, even with massive pay rises built-in, as you can now take a minimum hourage mininum wage job - to qualify for the free £1600, and there’s never any need to do more hours than that, IF you were managing your money well enough before such a madcap scheme is implemented.
Money will have to be printed to buy the bonds to lend to western governments - which is VERY inflationary as well.
There’s a way around this IF China, and other BRICK nations decide to massively increase the level of bond purchases issued by the Western powers - meaning they could feasibly bankroll the entire scheme IF they had a mind to as part of the ongoing deep-state agenda of “controlling people at all times”.
I can imagine certain restrictions such as “Must have a fixed abode” in order to get the free money…
You won’t be allowed to move house anymore!
Mind you, by the point this scheme is rolled out nationwide - householders will have all been re-possesed or sold their fully-owned properties at fire-sale prices, due to the downturn in the market caused in turn by poor loan borrowing rates these days.
That house you thought was worth £500,000 a year ago - will be hard to shift at any price where people working ordinary jobs can get a mortgage to purchase it.
If the Prime Minister’s salary is £210,000 for example, and you can borrow 3x your salary for a 100% mortgage - that leaves all value over and above £630,000 to find out of SAVINGS.
Sure, the PM can do that - but it would be a real struggle for others on the same salary, that don’t have the connections and built-in millionaire status that our current shower running Westminster do.
“You’'ll own nothing - and be happy”.
Well, at least you’ll own nothing. Happy?
Essay Question:
“Give an example of how an ordinary citizen would be made happy by losing absolutely everything material they ever owned”
JeffA:
Zac_A:
OwenMoney:
Is the mouse in your top pocket an English expression as I don’t understand it .I’ve never heard it in 60 years of life in the UK, it might be a localised saying for a particular area, but it is certainly not common across the country, and I can find no mention of it in reliable UK-based sources of sayings and idioms etc, such as those from Oxford or Cambridge, or Collins. TBH it just makes me think of The Green Mile movie.
I think I saw a bloke in a war movie who used to keep a mouse in his top pocket and talk to it.
I was thinking of the “Of Mice and Men” film. Doesnt Lennie have a pet mouse in his pocket? But I dont think it talks?
Zac_A:
Franglais:
So lets *see* if such a scheme can work in the UK then? There may well be issues, be amazing if there werent, but I reckon it is better to give this a fair shot.I doubt the trials will work out well, but if it were to become a reality I could certainly use it very productively
Franglais:
Are you suggesting that the NE is particularly badly off because they as a group are particularly inept at managing money?
Because you have seen examples of it?The NE deprivation is documented by ONS etc and is not up for debate. The basic northern attitude is very much “live for today” which does not sit well with good fiscal management, and the lower the socio-economic status, the less evident is sound fiscal management.
Franglais:
From your link:
“It found that in the wider North East, 54.6% of homes were classed as deprived in at least one of the four dimensions used to classify deprivation. That was the highest rate in England and Wales. The nationwide average was 51.7%”.
A bit worse off, yes. But, surely you arent suggesting that is because they are more feckless up there? Isnt it because there is economic activity there?
Is an area worse off because the people are wasteful with money, or because they have less of it?Feckless? That is not a word I would use. We have the traditional working class in the sense of hard-working down to earth people, but often these folk will be living side-by-side with (i) members of the “underclass”, where benefits are a lifestyle choice, often a multigenerational lifestyle choice, and/or (ii) enclaves of “non-native UK residents”: due to property prices being low in Middlesbrough it is one of the prime spots for the government to relocate people to.
If people can
t manage on monthly UBI then why would they manage on monthly salary? As I said the *period of payment* makes no difference to the idea of UBI. Argue that those with addictions need to help with their financial management, and Ill agree. But that is again irrelevant, to the idea of UBI.I disagree entirely, you and I and many others may be adept at monthly budgeting, other niches of society simply cannot handle it.
UBI isn
t meant to be an upgraded dole payment. It isnt just for the feckless, druggies, layabouts etc.
There is a minority who do need help with cash, and that is the same whether they get dole, UBI, or a big win on the pools.
It will need to be more common before older attitudes to employment change maybe.It does not matter what it is called, nor what the intentions behind it are (the road to hell allegedly being paved with good intentions) , it’s money that has not been earned, and what has not been earned will not be properly appreciated for what it represents nor will it be appropriately handled.
I was attempting at humour, not to be patronising, but I don`t think you are seeing the way this could go in the future.
I’ll let "the clue is in the name " go, but just because you have your vision of how it could go, does not mean that alternative visions of the future are not equally possible. I can see a whole range of potential problems, but I don’t think you have the same experiences of human nature that I have in order to visualise these problems.
Are you saying that in the UK poorer people are less adept at money management?
Are you saying that in the NE people are less adept at money management?
If so, it is somehow cultural or what? Is it your personal perception or backed up anywhere?
Anyway, as I tried to say, all irrelevant to UBI.
Currently it seems that benefits are paid fortnightly.
Does this mean that poor Geordies are doing worse than if they were paid wekly? Would they do better if paid daily?
I dont deny that some people have real problems with managing limited resources. I dont know whether or not that is related to where they live, nor their socioeconomic class?
And again all irrelevant to the idea of UBI, IMHO. No reason I can see that couldnt be paid weekly for those that need it to be so? (If we get to where AI is widespread it wont involve teams of extra admin staff to implement it, will it? 
)
JeffA:
Marky-p:
I was listening to most of this discussion on LBC today (as insufferable as James O’brien can be), two of the staff involved in bringing forward this pilot scheme were guest speakers/callers.The thing that shocked me was when they said that ANYONE could apply for the scheme…EVEN PEOPLE WITH JOBS.
So you mean to say that I’ve to got to fund the wasters that don’t want to work AND people who already have jobs, with my hard earned tax dollars? Lord knows that if UBI ever became nationwide (it won’t) taxes will be raised for this purpose.
Socialism never has worked, never will work, and luckily the UK will never be a socialist country.
Er…do you even realise you would get the payment too?
Anyway - you were in the police so you are used to other people paying for your massive police pensions. Isnt that the height of socialism? Wanting everyone else to pay your pension for you?
And pretty much everything worthwhile in this country came from a socialist government - or did you think the NHS was a tory idea?
Btw, this country has ALWAYS been socialist for the rich and capitalist for the poor - thats why the police get their pensions paid for them for example. If you hate the idea of free money please hand your pension back.
I have an almost zero pension with the Met. I stopped paying into it very early into my service, so I wouldn’t have anything to give back anyway 
I obviously prefer capitalism to socialism, that goes without saying.
If I wanted socialism I’d move to Venezuela, a once oil rich country with a bright future, now a poverty stricken nation where the people have become so poor they are forced to eat their pets due to having no food. THIS is the height of socialism.
The NHS is nothing to be proud of, under Labour or Tories. The service has been run so badly by government for so long it’s not even funny. Government has even destroyed the emergency services according to all the paramedics, firemen and officers I’ve spoken to; which is why so many are leaving including myself. Anything the government touches turns to ■■■■.
If you love socialism so much why don’t you move to a socialist country then?
Franglais:
JeffA:
Zac_A:
OwenMoney:
Is the mouse in your top pocket an English expression as I don’t understand it .I’ve never heard it in 60 years of life in the UK, it might be a localised saying for a particular area, but it is certainly not common across the country, and I can find no mention of it in reliable UK-based sources of sayings and idioms etc, such as those from Oxford or Cambridge, or Collins. TBH it just makes me think of The Green Mile movie.
I think I saw a bloke in a war movie who used to keep a mouse in his top pocket and talk to it.
I was thinking of the “Of Mice and Men” film. Doesn
t Lennie have a pet mouse in his pocket? But I dont think it talks?
IIRC it’s because Lennie’s mouse is dead.
Speaking of which, I need to buy a copy again, as some student is trying to get it banned (from the national curriculum) because “it hurts” to be reminded that historically we have not always spoken about people of african origin in the nicest possible way.
May as well ban “Twelve years a slave” while you’re at it then, and “To Kill a mockingbird” and some of Ian Fleming’s early Bond books, and… The list is too long to mention. It’ll also mean banning a whole load of rap music too.
Franglais:
Are you saying…
I think I’ve made my views fairly plain, there’s no sense in debating them further. Yes, poorer people are frequently bad at managing money, sometimes because they have so little money in the first place, sometimes their money managenent inabilities are what made them poor.
A sample size of 30 is statistically meaningless (basic statistical teachings, not open to debate), so even if this trial did have a “positive” result, no mathematically-intelligent person is going to stick their neck out and make decisions based on it.
Speaking of maths:
We have 33 million people in employment right now
33 million x £1,600 = £52.8 billion per month
That’s £633.6 billion per year, which equates to 25% of our national debt, or 29% of our GDP
Where exactly is the forest of magic money-trees located so we increase our GDP to these levels?
Zac_A:
Franglais:
Are you saying…I think I’ve made my views fairly plain, there’s no sense in debating them further. Yes, poorer people are frequently bad at managing money, sometimes because they have so little money in the first place, sometimes their money managenent inabilities are what made them poor.
A sample size of 30 is statistically meaningless (basic statistical teachings, not open to debate), so even if this trial did have a “positive” result, no mathematically-intelligent person is going to stick their neck out and make decisions based on it.
Speaking of maths:
We have 33 million people in employment right now
33 million x £1,600 = £52.8 billion per month
That’s £633.6 billion per year, which equates to 25% of our national debt, or 29% of our GDP
Where exactly is the forest of magic money-trees located so we increase our GDP to these levels?
What are the criteria for success/failure? Are there any? It is probably an experiment rather than a trial or a survey.
A bigger number of participants would be more informative, but it is what it is.
So, going back to the basic premises, IF AI really does take away 23 million of those current 33m jobs?
IF AI can make for a different world?
Would we be stuck with a huge proportion of the population on minimal benefits? With a complicated system of qualification for those benefits?
If there was ever increasing competition for a shrinking number of jobs? Where would pay levels go then?
I`d bet a few of those who currently profess to be “capitalists” would think again!
A small study now isnt chucking billions at summat we may never need, but may reveal problems making further study useless, or show a way to improve things. If it shows you are totally correct, and its a disaster then that too is money well spent. It saves throwing tax monies at summat that doesn`t work.
For myself I don`t see UBI as a fix for our existing society, (although it might do some good) but as a clue about how to plan for future events.
Zac_A:
Franglais:
Are you saying…I think I’ve made my views fairly plain, there’s no sense in debating them further. Yes, poorer people are frequently bad at managing money, sometimes because they have so little money in the first place, sometimes their money managenent inabilities are what made them poor.
A sample size of 30 is statistically meaningless (basic statistical teachings, not open to debate), so even if this trial did have a “positive” result, no mathematically-intelligent person is going to stick their neck out and make decisions based on it.
Speaking of maths:
We have 33 million people in employment right now
33 million x £1,600 = £52.8 billion per month
That’s £633.6 billion per year, which equates to 25% of our national debt, or 29% of our GDP
Where exactly is the forest of magic money-trees located so we increase our GDP to these levels?
Whilst printing that amount - is less than what we’ve already printed to hand over to “Foreign Aid” (including Ukraine) this past year - the catch 22 with QE printed money is that it causes inflation IF buyers of your bonds decide they don’t WANT to fund this kind of nonsense.
Giving everyone £1600 a month will lead to a situation where people currently working “won’t bother” just like during the lockdown, when they discovered that the drop in commuting overheads was saving them so much money, that they could more than get by on 80% of their salary “furlough money”…
They could start sticking money into savings, take a foreign holiday for the first time in years, and even get some home improvements done on the house…
A basic income of £1600 in the longer term would ensure that you cannot buy a basket of shopping for less than that amount, cannot pay a rent or mortgage for less than that amount, and eventually cannot buy anything at ALL for less than that amount.
Pounds Sterling will end up like the Pesetas or Lira of the past…
“Hundreds of them to buy a beer, tens of thousands for a sit-down meal, breaking a 100,000 note on payday…”
Marky-p:
JeffA:
Marky-p:
I was listening to most of this discussion on LBC today (as insufferable as James O’brien can be), two of the staff involved in bringing forward this pilot scheme were guest speakers/callers.The thing that shocked me was when they said that ANYONE could apply for the scheme…EVEN PEOPLE WITH JOBS.
So you mean to say that I’ve to got to fund the wasters that don’t want to work AND people who already have jobs, with my hard earned tax dollars? Lord knows that if UBI ever became nationwide (it won’t) taxes will be raised for this purpose.
Socialism never has worked, never will work, and luckily the UK will never be a socialist country.
Er…do you even realise you would get the payment too?
Anyway - you were in the police so you are used to other people paying for your massive police pensions. Isnt that the height of socialism? Wanting everyone else to pay your pension for you?
And pretty much everything worthwhile in this country came from a socialist government - or did you think the NHS was a tory idea?
Btw, this country has ALWAYS been socialist for the rich and capitalist for the poor - thats why the police get their pensions paid for them for example. If you hate the idea of free money please hand your pension back.
I have an almost zero pension with the Met. I stopped paying into it very early into my service, so I wouldn’t have anything to give back anyway
I obviously prefer capitalism to socialism, that goes without saying.
If I wanted socialism I’d move to Venezuela, a once oil rich country with a bright future, now a poverty stricken nation where the people have become so poor they are forced to eat their pets due to having no food. THIS is the height of socialism.
The NHS is nothing to be proud of, under Labour or Tories. The service has been run so badly by government for so long it’s not even funny. Government has even destroyed the emergency services according to all the paramedics, firemen and officers I’ve spoken to; which is why so many are leaving including myself. Anything the government touches turns to [zb].
If you love socialism so much why don’t you move to a socialist country then?
Venezuela is the only socialism you know of? What about France? They retire at 60 there - thats what I call socialism. Britain was socialist from 1945-79 - do you think all those soldiers who came back and kicked the tories out wanted right-wing politics in the UK? They were our best generation and they chose socialism. That tells you something.
Trust me if you had ever known life without the NHS and seen loved ones die because they cant afford treatment you would kneel and give thanks to the sociaists who saved you and your families lives. The guy who created the NHS was a socialist who watched his dad die as a kid cos they couldnt afford a doctor.
This country has beem “socialist” since Thatcher - but its socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor. Thats why you pay more tax than the bloke who owns your company. You see how Trump paid £750 income tax when he was earning millions? See how Rishis wife claimed nondom tax status? The rich LOVE free money - they just hate it going to anyone but themselves.
Franglais:
So, going back to the basic premises, IF AI really does take away 23 million of those current 33m jobs?
IF AI can make for a different world?
IF… By far the biggest implicative word in our language.
Or, to put a northern folk-wisdom twist on it:
“If wishes were horses, beggars would ride”
Normally used as a conversation closer to infer “Aye, right, owt you say like…”
According to Winseer >90% of the population is due to be “culled”, so those huge “IF’s” will be more than adequately resolved IF there’s any sense in his statement (I’m being rhetorical of course)
AI is just the latest “internet meltdown” topic, those of us who lived through the Y2K “millenium bug” nonsense have seen it before. Same as the 1980’s “AIDS, don’t die of ignorance”.
Has AI taken even 1000 jobs yet? No.
Even when it’s up and running I don’t see it taking away a lot of people’s jobs. First to go will be the likes of Amazon, then the supermarket shelf-stackers.
It’s not even as likely as (discussed on R4 this week) the potential for an antibiotic-resistant TB pandemic (that one’s especially for your mate Robroy)
Zac_A:
Franglais:
So, going back to the basic premises, IF AI really does take away 23 million of those current 33m jobs?
IF AI can make for a different world?IF… By far the biggest implicative word in our language.
Or, to put a northern folk-wisdom twist on it:
“If wishes were horses, beggars would ride”
Normally used as a conversation closer to infer “Aye, right, owt you say like…”According to Winseer >90% of the population is due to be “culled”, so those huge “IF’s” will be more than adequately resolved IF there’s any sense in his statement (I’m being rhetorical of course)
AI is just the latest “internet meltdown” topic, those of us who lived through the Y2K “millenium bug” nonsense have seen it before. Same as the 1980’s “AIDS, don’t die of ignorance”.
Has AI taken even 1000 jobs yet? No.
Even when it’s up and running I don’t see it taking away a lot of people’s jobs. First to go will be the likes of Amazon, then the supermarket shelf-stackers.It’s not even as likely as (discussed on R4 this week) the potential for an antibiotic-resistant TB pandemic (that one’s especially for your mate Robroy)
The Y2K bug was possiby a self-defeating prediction?
IF nowt was done then there could have been many mishaps. Because the potential for danger was seen, then steps were taken to avert any grave consequences.
Looking at AI and blithly saying “Nowt to worry about” would be foolish.
Computors have done away with many jobs so far, and have also created many.
AI may go the same way, but as I suggested earlier, IF AI means extra productivity, then that will quite possibly mean extra consumption of global resources, and we have enough problems with that already.
An increasing global population, plus extra consumption, equals problems.
Capitalism according to some thinkers is a giant Ponzi scheme. It needs to grow to remain stable.
GDP needs to grow to avoid stagnation.
AI isn`t about to kill us in our beds tomorrow.
Neither is GM.
But either could become a real threat without suitable regulation.
And agreed antibiotic resistance is another issue coming at us.
Im not losing sleep over any of this, but I dont think it should be ignored.