Is th at Winseer or is it Lenin?! 
OwenMoney:
UBI would make a huge difference to people who have to give up their careers to care for their parents, which is saving the nhs huge sums.
UBI of £1600 a month would make a huge difference to me if I opted for it, especially if it is per person and not per household. I’m knocking on 60 I’m debt and mortgage free, I could happily dump my car and all the associated costs, leave work and very easily live a happy life on £1600 a month!
Just think of it; I’d be paying no more pesky tax and NI, I’d no doubt be able to wangle free prescriptions and perhaps a gym membership too all the while content in the knowledge that some poor sap is grafting 60+ hours a week to support me.
It gets my vote.
OwenMoney:
Houses in a once-thriving seaside destination have been put on the market for just £5,000 amidst claims it is now a “ghost town.”Four properties in the village of Horden, County Durham have been placed on RightMove for just £5,000 – two of these are two-bed terraced houses, and one a three-bed.
Grim up north.
“Seaside destination” is pushing it a bit. Horden is a pit village that happens to be on the coast with several rows of terraced houses. The pit which was very productive closed in 1987, people moved away for work, houses were bought by absent landlords who let them out to anyone, mostly young.
The place is now riddled with drugs and the absent landlords are at the sharp end, not getting rent or properties being wrecked and are trying to offload hence the cheap properties.
Tyneside
the maoster:
Just think of it; I’d be paying no more pesky tax and NI, I’d no doubt be able to wangle free prescriptions and perhaps a gym membership too all the while content in the knowledge that some poor sap is grafting 60+ hours a week to support me.It gets my vote.
Of course tax and NI would be payable on £19,200 p.a.
“Of course” . You know this how? Are benefits currently taxed?
the maoster:
OwenMoney:
UBI would make a huge difference to people who have to give up their careers to care for their parents, which is saving the nhs huge sums.UBI of £1600 a month would make a huge difference to me if I opted for it, especially if it is per person and not per household. I’m knocking on 60 I’m debt and mortgage free, I could happily dump my car and all the associated costs, leave work and very easily live a happy life on £1600 a month!
Just think of it; I’d be paying no more pesky tax and NI, I’d no doubt be able to wangle free prescriptions and perhaps a gym membership too all the while content in the knowledge that some poor sap is grafting 60+ hours a week to support me.
It gets my vote.
Not really - we’re all grafting now so Rishi’s wife gets to pay zero tax. The UBI would switch things round a little - instead of all the money being funnelled to the top - the number of billionaires in the UK is increasing every year - the money goes to the people who actually need it.
Introduce a wealth tax too - you can’t dodge tax on property. Tax all these people with 5 million quid houses at just 2% and everything (and a lot more besides) is paid for. You can dodge income tax if you have clever accountants but you can’t dodge a tax on your property.
I was listening to most of this discussion on LBC today (as insufferable as James O’brien can be), two of the staff involved in bringing forward this pilot scheme were guest speakers/callers.
The thing that shocked me was when they said that ANYONE could apply for the scheme…EVEN PEOPLE WITH JOBS.
So you mean to say that I’ve to got to fund the wasters that don’t want to work AND people who already have jobs, with my hard earned tax dollars? Lord knows that if UBI ever became nationwide (it won’t) taxes will be raised for this purpose.
Socialism never has worked, never will work, and luckily the UK will never be a socialist country.
the maoster:
“Of course” . You know this how? Are benefits currently taxed?
Job seekers allowance is taxable, but Universal Credit is not. You’re right they could exempt it if they liked, but currently without exemption it would be taxable
stu675:
the maoster:
“Of course” . You know this how? Are benefits currently taxed?Job seekers allowance is taxable, but Universal Credit is not. You’re right they could exempt it if they liked, but currently without exemption it would be taxable
UC is tapered at 55%, meaning that not only does one pay a larger effective “deduction” upon it (from earnings) than even a millionaire high-rate taxpayer, but also the “benefit” flips over into a “Loan” should you go straight from UC to a decent-earning job that then means you are obliged to pay back a full month’s worth of UC money received prior to you taking that job.
If the government takes BACK money already given to you - then what is the difference between that deduction and “tax” as we think of it?
Meanwhile, the government has made no effort whatsoever to take back falsely granted Furlough payments claimed by “Employers” despite the fact that the said Employers - let people go against the agreement AFTER they’d been paid that amount?
The money also got ex-patriated in many cases, meaning that UK-born Citizens have been the very least important citizens to be “Looked after” in the government’s eyes…
I don’t see Keir Starmer’s Labour - talking at ALL about claiming money back from actual accused persons as of yet.
As a Yuman Rights laywer - he should be all over it - but no.
Marky-p:
I was listening to most of this discussion on LBC today (as insufferable as James O’brien can be), two of the staff involved in bringing forward this pilot scheme were guest speakers/callers.The thing that shocked me was when they said that ANYONE could apply for the scheme…EVEN PEOPLE WITH JOBS.
So you mean to say that I’ve to got to fund the wasters that don’t want to work AND people who already have jobs, with my hard earned tax dollars? Lord knows that if UBI ever became nationwide (it won’t) taxes will be raised for this purpose.
Socialism never has worked, never will work, and luckily the UK will never be a socialist country.
Er…do you even realise you would get the payment too?
Anyway - you were in the police so you are used to other people paying for your massive police pensions. Isnt that the height of socialism? Wanting everyone else to pay your pension for you?
And pretty much everything worthwhile in this country came from a socialist government - or did you think the NHS was a tory idea?
Btw, this country has ALWAYS been socialist for the rich and capitalist for the poor - thats why the police get their pensions paid for them for example. If you hate the idea of free money please hand your pension back.
It is worth pointing out that the DWP now has the power to look at everyone’s earnings on their database, and send debt collectors around to claim debts that are already statute-barred under former laws relating to debt recovery, AND enforce collection on people WITHOUT going through the former route of “claiming through a civil court”.
Surely that is “Misuse of private and personal data for personal gain” otherwise known as “Fraudulently obtaining money by deception”?
It’ll be interesting to see what Employers make of it - should the boot ever be on the other foot.
“We’re losing Key Workers Ms Pencilneck, because our staff cannot afford to keep up payments on their mortgages AND the 20% draconian deductions made for loans they didn’t take out being chased for recovery by an unlected quango that didn’t even bother to go through any court before helping themselves to their hard-earned. At their new job, which I’m NOT going to give the DWP details of - they’ll be able to just about meet their mortgage payments, and dodge the attempt to confiscate earnings @ 20% on top of normal deductions - at least until the DWP catches up with that new employer position later.”
Taxation - doesn’t work if there are “Exceptions”.
Likewise, UB won’t ever work if there are “Exceptions” - that is, “people who don’t get it that want it”. ANY reason anyone is “turned down”. Doesn’t matter.
UB would be as watertight as Furlough was. “Given to the wrong people to squirrel away on the wrong things”. Furlough, as such was a total failure, that has also by this point loaned itself to the inflation spiral, by giving people with reduced overheads - the means to spend on frivolous things like Days Out, Holidays Abroad, Fancy Cars, and Socializing - instead of “getting back to work”.
If you give it ONLY via the taxpaying accounts we’re all supposed to have PAYE these days - then you ensure that the correct people get it - and the only ones “exempted” - will be those who choose to be exempt from receiving such a payment - Black Economy Participants - and Non-Doms.
Wot’s Not-to-like there? 
What is being proposed here is a trial, an experiment.
IF that seems a solution IF AI means fewer jobs needing workers, then maybe that will be the basis of a new social system.
IF that were to happen, then getting from one to the other, would be problematic. A mixed system might have problems not present in a full UBI system.
UBI isn`t about qualifying for it. It is Universal.
Employed, idle, or in education, fit or ill, working for the Gov or a private company, caring for relatives for free or others for money, everyone gets UBI.
Those who do work get extra cash. Work is still rewarded so we can choose extra goods, better housing, travel etc?
Jobs will then need to pay to attract those who choose to work.
If a job is onerous it will get better pay. If it involves driving a nice shiny V8 hydrogen fueled truck around the country, maybe it won`t pay as much as a toilet cleaner?
IF this were to all come about the tax NI etc systems would need to be changed radically.
How many would choose to do nowt? How many would choose to work 60 hours or more to fund their own lifestyle aspirations?
We can only guess at the moment.
Trials are there to see what would really happen.
Those like me who grew up in a society that “respects” a work ethic will likely make different choices than those who are kids today. Those who might enter a society where UBI is the norm will see things differently.
It really does take some getting your head around.
It isnt just a bit of tinkering with benefits levels. It probably isnt feasible today nor tomorrow.
But trials and experiments need to be done for clues about how we would react to it.
Look, if we can run an experiment like handing the water companies billions in taxpayers money to share between rich private equity companies who then dump billions of tons of excrement into the rivers - we can afford to trial ubi.
The ubi trial in Finland with 2000 people was declared a failure. The UK is proposing 30 people I think.
OwenMoney:
The ubi trial in Finland with 2000 people was declared a failure.
Who by? The mouse in your top pocket?
The final results from Finland’s experiment are now in, and the findings are intriguing: the basic income in Finland led to a small increase in employment, significantly boosted multiple measures of the recipients’ well-being, and reinforced positive individual and societal feedback loops
JeffA:
OwenMoney:
The ubi trial in Finland with 2000 people was declared a failure.Who by? The mouse in your top pocket?
The final results from Finland’s experiment are now in, and the findings are intriguing: the basic income in Finland led to a small increase in employment, significantly boosted multiple measures of the recipients’ well-being, and reinforced positive individual and societal feedback loops
That’s interesting.
I remembered the trial but not the result so googled it up. Two different reports saying different things.
Is the mouse in your top pocket an English expression as I don’t understand it .
I suppose the first thing it will do is eliminate poverty in the UK.
One point for the “Its my money funding the trial” boys - it isnt, its privately funded.
(Did you really think the tories would give poor people money?)
The IPPR estimates that 44% of jobs in the UK economy could feasibly be automated, equating to more than 13.7 million people who together earn about £290bn. Although it doesn’t give a forecast for how long this would take, it cited US research which estimates the changes could occur over the next 10 or 20 years. From the collective pay pool worth £290bn, middle-income jobs such as call-centre workers, secretaries and factory workers are likely to be hollowed out. Low-skilled workers could also lose their jobs or face fewer hours from greater levels of automation. At the same time the highest earners and workers able to retrain will gain higher pay thanks to rising productivity – which means more output being generated per hour worked.
JeffA:
lets not write the scheme off because you dont like “scroungers” tho - rich people love free money and always have. Thats why they dodge so much tax and dont want taxing on their wealth/properties. Thats why the govt keep benefit rates and sick pay at rock bottom levels while paying house of lords wallys £400 a day turning up “allowance”
Yes wealthy, or smart, people will take the extra money and most likely use it to make themselves even more wealthy, whereas the more impulsive sections of society will have a monthly binge and end up no better off than they were before, potentially even worse than before, Drug, alcohol or gambling addicts are not known for their rational approach to money.
Here’s a pop culture example: In Trainspotting, Renton leaves some of the stolen money in a train station locker for Spud
In Trainspotting 2, Spud attacks Renton for that generosity, saying something along the lines of “Ah’m a junkie man, what did you think I would do with the money?”
A fictional representation of a very real aspect of human nature.