Unite rolls out Drivers’ Charter

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

tommy t:
I doubt ukip would make much of a difference if elected in may, they seems to be too much like what we have in power now,a tory government in all but name, coalition my arse

The fact that at least UKIP obviously intends to shut the door to further import of east Euro labour is a massive difference over any of the LabLibdemCon alliance.Which suggests that it is at least prepared to understand and make a start on the issues of such immigration affecting working class income levels.As for wether they are genuine about that issue bearing in mind the effects of non EU immigration and pre existing immigration has in that regard is open to question.There is also more chance that UKIP’s environmental policies would allow for a much more road transport friendly policy resulting in more demand.Therefore as it stands there really is nothing to lose by voting UKIP.

62

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
What is so called about efficiency? It’s like you don’t believe it exists!! Efficiently doesn’t mean low wages

The type of ‘efficiency’ which you are obviously describing certainly is all about the idea of including wage rates in the competition process.If that isn’t the case then you would have no objections to a union bargaining position which excludes wages from being part of that process.

As I said any type of ‘efficiency’ that is based on under cutting wages is not a real ‘efficiency’ at all because it actually just damages the economy as a whole.

i didn’t describe a type of efficiency, i just said efficiency.

i did earlier say how some people pay high to have the pick and in theory far less hassle and some people pay low but accept the problems that that brings. i doubt that paying low works out the cheapest and therefore not the most efficient way of doing things as it happens!

again, i never said efficiency based on undercutting wages! i agree that has a bad effect on the economy, but an individual company doesn’t have a responsibility to the economy and it would be highly unlikely if they would see an increase their business as a result.

63

Carryfast:

tommy t:
I doubt ukip would make much of a difference if elected in may, they seems to be too much like what we have in power now,a tory government in all but name, coalition my arse

The fact that at least UKIP obviously intends to shut the door to further import of east Euro labour is a massive difference over any of the LabLibdemCon alliance.Which suggests that it is at least prepared to understand and make a start on the issues of such immigration affecting working class income levels.As for wether they are genuine about that issue bearing in mind the effects of non EU immigration and pre existing immigration has in that regard is open to question.There is also more chance that UKIP’s environmental policies would allow for a much more road transport friendly policy resulting in more demand.Therefore as it stands there really is nothing to lose by voting UKIP.

There is much to lose, we can’t have working class people using their brains and thinking…ooh i don’t now, what would be best for us people who actually work for a living and want a decent future for our children…working class people should do as their collective mummy tells them, and that starts when they’re at school to make sure they get the right message early on, we can’t have them going round seeking out alternative news sources, sources not approved by the State educators and news producers.

Next thing they’d be wondering why a leading politician solemnly makes cast iron promises to garner the odd vote and then breaks them without even a blush, or why another one tells the world that we won’t charge tuition fees on my watch and 5 minutes later those doey eyed kids that voted for him are signing themselves up to a lifetime of debt as they leave the school gates.

The working class will damned well do as they’re told, they’ll vote for who we tell them to, and when some upstart like that Farage dissident tells them that 5 million immigrants in just over ten years have come here and millions more will follow, we’ll reassure them that even if it was true (we’ve temporarily misplaced the figures, but probably more like 15000) it hasn’t made a scrap of difference to the health service (fault of the elderly you know they should just die, and we’ll leave 'em on a trolley in a corridor all night if they don’t hurry up), nor schools, housing and especially the jobs market.

Those marvellous mobile workers, they’re wonderful, they do all the jobs we don’t want to do (where are the people who did those jobs before?), they cheerfully work for minimum wage and simultaneously are net contributors to the economy, they should get issued with shiny underpants to wear on the outside for they can do the impossible.

Any worker that questions the right on message of the day, we’ll call them racists, gadflies, swivel eyed loons, little englanders, europhobes and any other insults we happen to think of, if they prove troublesome we’ll send the UAF stormtroopers to silence them, UAF believe the best route to freedom is to not let anyone who they don’t agree with be heard, that’s utopian democracy for you.

Carry on as you were working people, it doesn’t matter which of the labour liberal or conservative parties you vote for so long as you vote for one of them, they’re all signed up to the EU superstate now, so get out there and vote, you know it makes sense.

64

stevieboy308:
i never said efficiency based on undercutting wages! i agree that has a bad effect on the economy, but an individual company doesn’t have a responsibility to the economy and it would be highly unlikely if they would see an increase their business as a result.

Assuming that you’re in agreement that undercutting wages has a bad effect on the economy then firstly it would be a contradiction to then suggest that ‘individual’ companies don’t all have their ‘individual’ part to play in that or that the effect in question on the economy as a whole certainly obviously affects business for everyone.

IE we need to get spending power up so that goods get bought and therefore moved and every individual company has its part to play in that in the form of not under cutting each other on wages.

While the government needs to do everything possible in increasing demand for labour and reduce supply by sorting out the issues of exporting jobs and/or importing cheap labour and stop choking the economy with ridiculous levels of indirect taxation.Especially in the form of the present type of road fuel taxation.Which has caused and still is causing such damage to the road transport industry both in terms of the wages it can pay to its workers and causing its potential customers to walk away and send freight by rail that otherwise would probably have gone by road for example.

We’re actually talking about the basic mover and driver of the US economy of the 1960’s in that case.In which case the unarguable figures for that economic system spoke for themselves in every sector of that economy from transport to manufacturing.The idea of a union imposed ring fence around wages,such as that agreed in the 1964 Master Freight Agreement,which removed the possibility of individual companies being able to undercut each other in terms of wages,being an essential component in that economy.

65

So, poor rates and low profit margines have nothing to do with low hourly rates in this industry then?

66

It makes you wonder why, with the pay & conditions being so poor, anyone even considers driving as a way of making a living. I assume that the majority don’t do it for the thrill of driving a big truck, it’s in the blood, it’s what I’ve always wanted to do etc etc. I take we don’t do it as a favour to the boss as he’s a canny lad even though he pays crap, he’ll put up the pay when things pick up he’s says. If you want to get the pay up then stop working for minimum wage, if enough refuse to work for poor payers then they will have to put money up or go out of business.
Don’t worry though, as soon as Lord Nigel gets into Downing street the whole country will look upon us as heroes, chucking money at us left right & centre. We’ll never hear another East european voice again, unless we go to Eastern Europe of course.

67

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
i never said efficiency based on undercutting wages! i agree that has a bad effect on the economy, but an individual company doesn’t have a responsibility to the economy and it would be highly unlikely if they would see an increase their business as a result.

Assuming that you’re in agreement that undercutting wages has a bad effect on the economy then firstly it would be a contradiction to then suggest that ‘individual’ companies don’t all have their ‘individual’ part to play in that or that the effect in question on the economy as a whole certainly obviously affects business for everyone.

how do you come to the conclusion there’s a contradiction in what i wrote?

68

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:
Assuming that you’re in agreement that undercutting wages has a bad effect on the economy then firstly it would be a contradiction to then suggest that ‘individual’ companies don’t all have their ‘individual’ part to play in that or that the effect in question on the economy as a whole certainly obviously affects business for everyone.

how do you come to the conclusion there’s a contradiction in what i wrote?

If I read it right firstly you were making the case that any agreement which creates a system of inter company rate setting/pricing,in order to avoid the undercutting of wages is the same thing as a cartel :question: .When as I’ve said such an agreement is more or less exactly what the old 1964 master freight agreement in the states was all about.

You also seemed to be making the case that all companies wouldn’t have their individual responsibility in implementing such an agreement and/or benefit from it.

You then ( correctly ) seemed to be saying that the undercutting of wages between individual companies is bad for the economy. :confused:

69

UKIP scare me, they’re even more right than the Conservatives. The Conservatives hate the employee, that’s a known. They also hate Unions and public service workers. If it was up to them we’d all be on minimum wage with zero hour contract’s.
As an employee it’s always better to go a little bit left of centre and if possible, join a Union. Union members on the whole have better terms and conditions and are on a better wage.
100% behind a charter that benefit’s us driver’s

70

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
do you want a cartel?

do you shop around at renewal time for your car insurance?

The idea of ring fencing a set figure in costings and pricing quotes,so that wages are isolated from the competitive tendering process and therefore aren’t compromised by undercutting,isn’t the same thing as a cartel.

teamster.org/about/teamster-hist … -agreement

For the sake of good discussion. (keep in the spirit lads, keep in the spirit :wink: )

That system already is supposed to exist with national minimum wage floor. Transport have barstidissssed (spelt wrong as filter took it out and it is not a swear word) this - and I cannot get my head around why this has not been legally challenged- by the use of day rates.

If you replace “wages” in your paragraph with “profit margin” that is exactly what a cartel is. When have you ever heard of a company that tenders with wage protection as a motivator unless bound by law? That law in road haulage is the appallingly enforced national minimum wage. A company under a capitalist system will not set a higher wages floor unless forced.

71

Freight Dog:

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:
do you want a cartel?

do you shop around at renewal time for your car insurance?

The idea of ring fencing a set figure in costings and pricing quotes,so that wages are isolated from the competitive tendering process and therefore aren’t compromised by undercutting,isn’t the same thing as a cartel.

teamster.org/about/teamster-hist … -agreement

For the sake of good discussion. (keep in the spirit lads, keep in the spirit :wink: )

That system already is suppose to exist with national minimum wage floor. Transport have barstidissssed (spelt wrong as filter took it out and its not a swear word) this - and I cannot get my head around why this has not been legally challenged- by the use of day rates.

If you replace “wages” in your paragraph with “profit margin” that is exactly what a cartel is. When have you ever heard of a company that tenders with wage protection as a motivator unless bound by law? And that current law in road haulage is the appallingly enforced national minimum wage. A company under a capitalist system will not set a higher wages floor unless forced.

You’ve got it in one… Forced.
A Union of Driver’s (Would this happen?) or individual Unionised companie’s, that is easier to do.

72

weeto:
I’ve seen accounts for a haulage company which had a £15 million turnover return only £80,000 profit,

That’s only 0.53% profit. Blatantly not a viable business.

73

So Unite want a minimum £520 for a 48 hour week. That’s £10.83 an hour. Add time and half after 8 hours on to that and that’s about right. Plus they want sick pay and decent pension provision. And no more 70-80 hour weeks.

And some think this is ridiculous. No wonder this industry is ■■■■■■. I bet some drivers even pay for their bosses lube to shaft them with :unamused:

74

sweepster:
UKIP scare me, they’re even more right than the Conservatives. The Conservatives hate the employee, that’s a known. They also hate Unions and public service workers. If it was up to them we’d all be on minimum wage with zero hour contract’s.
As an employee it’s always better to go a little bit left of centre and if possible, join a Union. Union members on the whole have better terms and conditions and are on a better wage.

:unamused:

If you really think that Labour are any better or different to the Cons I suggest that you check out the circumstances which led to the Labour vote collapsing in 1979.IE a stitch up of the public sector workers in addition to all the rest.While I don’t remember Blair reversing any of Thatcher’s anti union policies.

Assuming that UKIP are less for the working class than Labour then why would Labour want to support the CBI agenda of cheap labour immigration and EU membership which adds to the already over supplied Labour market with workers who have lower wage expectations.While there isn’t much point in anyone who drives a truck for a living voting for a Party which is dedicated to removing as many trucks from the road as possible all on the excuse of ‘global warming’.

75

Terry T:
So Unite want a minimum £520 for a 48 hour week. That’s £10.83 an hour. Add time and half after 8 hours on to that and that’s about right. Plus they want sick pay and decent pension provision. And no more 70-80 hour weeks.

And some think this is ridiculous. No wonder this industry is [zb]. I bet some drivers even pay for their bosses lube to shaft them with :unamused:

If I’ve read it right the idea is a max 48 hour week ‘limit’.Which is obviously an unviable ask if we want the road transport industry to survive.

Whereas getting back to 1970’s grass roots of opposition to tachographs,domestic hours regs that mean what they say,and calling for a 12 hour max working day/shift assuming we leave the EU certainly wouldn’t be.In addition to dumping all the pro CBI,pro EU,pro immigration,pro rail,anti road,global warmist bs,that goes with the territory of a Labour vote.

76

1979 is not now. I believe they’re the lesser of the 4 eviels, that is my democratic right. The EU have brought in a lot for the worker, although I agree with you on immigration.

77

sweepster:
1979 is not now. The EU have brought in a lot for the worker, although I agree with you on immigration.

Great so carry on with 15 hour shifts and being stopped short of home or destination by 56 mph max limiters,9 hours driving limit and tachos which record to the minute and good luck with changing the EU’s immigration policies.While removing as many trucks from the road as possible and sending whatever work we’ve got left by rail.

78

Carryfast:
If I’ve read it right the idea is a max 48 hour week ‘limit’.Which is obviously an unviable ask if we want the road transport industry to survive.

It’s a tricky situation. The problem is the obsession with the 5 day working week. Some runs cannot be done in less than 10 hours which is what would be necessary for a 48 hour average for a 5 day week. I know for a fact that we have runs which are impossible to do in less than 11 hours and throw in a few (inevitable) queues on the M25 and you’re looking at 12-13 hours.

But times that by 5 and you’re working up to 65 hours per week. Over 1.5 times more than a factory worker. And some are dumb enough to do this for a flat rate of less than £10 pr hour. In some cases far less.

If some shifts take 12-13 hours to complete (and some do) then lets restrict the amount of days they can be done. That leaves 3 other days for another driver to do the rest. Who knows, might even create jobs. Instead of hero drivers working 80 hours per week doing the work of 2 people just to pay the bills.

79

Who’s mad enough to work 15 hour’s?
That is why we all need to get Unionised and stand up. I’m in a Unionised company who have good t and c’s and a decent wage.
I was currently in disagreement with my employer. I informed the Union and it was sorted out in my favour, as I knew it would be.
My company has cut rail to go by road.

80

sweepster:
UKIP scare me, they’re even more right than the Conservatives.

So that leaves us with Labour and that silly voiced muppet Millibland.
I’ve done alright out of the Tories and I don’t own a country estate and duck pond.
Probably will vote UKIP purely as a V sign to all this European nonsense.