The post-war period was a golden age for mechanical innovation, and lorries were closer to the coal face than cars, given the priority of function over style in their industrial role. In the second half of the 20th Century, the engine of the machine improved hugely in terms of power output, reliability and durability, with quite an increase in fuel efficiency too. Along the way, there was room for trepidation- turbochargers made a huge improvement, but there was some lag (ho ho) in their introduction. At other times, the innovations arrived in an under-developed state- the first electronic controls lacked reliability. This thread hopes to extract details of that history, with and without hindsight, from people with experience of it.
I am not sure that the first electronic controls lacked reliability, I think they were and still are diagnosed incorrectly.
What amazes me is how many technicians (hate what that means) still open a injector fuel pipe & crank it over, and
will say it has diesel at the injector it should go.
I worked on a Mercedes Atego recently that had been to a couple of workshops for a non starting fault, it would only
start with Easy Start (best thing available to destroy certain engines) when it had not been run for about an hour,
anyway it had had a new crank sensor, the engine ECU bhad been away & had both banks replaced, a new fuel pump &
two injectors, I got the job and looked at the fuel pipe about 12" back from the fuel filter housing as it was damp,
replaced that section of fuel line & hey presto it would start every time, replaced fuel line back to tank not seen it
since, as I said misdiagnosis is the real issue with modern vehicles.
I would like to wish everyone a happy & prosperous new Year.
Dave…
dave docwra:
I am not sure that the first electronic controls lacked reliability, I think they were and still are diagnosed incorrectly.
What amazes me is how many technicians (hate what that means) still open a injector fuel pipe & crank it over, and
will say it has diesel at the injector it should go.I worked on a Mercedes Atego recently that had been to a couple of workshops for a non starting fault, it would only
start with Easy Start (best thing available to destroy certain engines) when it had not been run for about an hour,
anyway it had had a new crank sensor, the engine ECU bhad been away & had both banks replaced, a new fuel pump &
two injectors, I got the job and looked at the fuel pipe about 12" back from the fuel filter housing as it was damp,
replaced that section of fuel line & hey presto it would start every time, replaced fuel line back to tank not seen it
since, as I said misdiagnosis is the real issue with modern vehicles.I would like to wish everyone a happy & prosperous new Year.
Dave…
I’ve got a 12 v fuel pump it’s an American made one I use it temporarily on things with faults or where I don’t want to crank too long and in the event of a breakdown ect .
dave docwra:
I am not sure that the first electronic controls lacked reliability, I think they were and still are diagnosed incorrectly.
What amazes me is how many technicians (hate what that means) still open a injector fuel pipe & crank it over, and
will say it has diesel at the injector it should go.I worked on a Mercedes Atego recently that had been to a couple of workshops for a non starting fault, it would only
start with Easy Start (best thing available to destroy certain engines) when it had not been run for about an hour,
anyway it had had a new crank sensor, the engine ECU bhad been away & had both banks replaced, a new fuel pump &
two injectors, I got the job and looked at the fuel pipe about 12" back from the fuel filter housing as it was damp,
replaced that section of fuel line & hey presto it would start every time, replaced fuel line back to tank not seen it
since, as I said misdiagnosis is the real issue with modern vehicles.I would like to wish everyone a happy & prosperous new Year.
Dave…
…so it was sucking air in from the leak in that pipe?
[zb]
anorak:dave docwra:
I am not sure that the first electronic controls lacked reliability, I think they were and still are diagnosed incorrectly.
What amazes me is how many technicians (hate what that means) still open a injector fuel pipe & crank it over, and
will say it has diesel at the injector it should go.I worked on a Mercedes Atego recently that had been to a couple of workshops for a non starting fault, it would only
start with Easy Start (best thing available to destroy certain engines) when it had not been run for about an hour,
anyway it had had a new crank sensor, the engine ECU bhad been away & had both banks replaced, a new fuel pump &
two injectors, I got the job and looked at the fuel pipe about 12" back from the fuel filter housing as it was damp,
replaced that section of fuel line & hey presto it would start every time, replaced fuel line back to tank not seen it
since, as I said misdiagnosis is the real issue with modern vehicles.I would like to wish everyone a happy & prosperous new Year.
Dave…
…so it was sucking air in from the leak in that pipe?
And in doing so, allowing the fuel to run back to the tank.
[/quote]
And in doing so, allowing the fuel to run back to the tank.
[/quote]
Thats the one, absolutely nothing to do with what others had done as they
we’re probably too busy looking at their laptops to find an answer.
Doesn’t the diagnostics gear detect a lack of diesel at the inlet to the injection pump?
Taking this slightly ‘off topic’, but related to fuel supply problems. One of our powder tankers expired on the road from the quarry late one winter afternoon when it was dark and I was sent to investigate the cause. No fuel coming through the lift pump (Gardner 201 engine) so I fitted a new pump and there was no difference! Tank was full to the brim so I started checking the fuel line with a torch and soon found the cause: the nearside front spring main leaf had snapped and sliced the fuel line in half! 
The first ■■■■■■■ engine Foden we had developed a ‘surging’ problem and we couldn’t find the cause so ■■■■■■■ sent a fitter out (it was under warranty still) and the main heavily braided fuel line was changed straight away and the problem sorted. Apparently they had a faulty batch of them and they were sucking air in, but not enough to stop the engine totally.
Pete.
I had a power problem with a K19 ■■■■■■■ engine it had lost its get up and go it still did the job albeit sluggishly I fitted a new Turbo had the fuel pump overhauled with no result and as time went by I accepted the engine had never been that good until one night I went over a rough cattle grid and the engine stopped I coasted in neutral until I stopped and the engine was still trying to run lifted the bonnet and saw straight away the single 12volt wire to the main fuel solenoid hanging by one strand of copper,an easy fix thought I the wire was plenty long enough to trim up and fit a new fitting to reattach it to the solenoid so I stripped back the outer casing of the wire and found the copper was green from mould I pared back another inch or so until I got good clean copper attached it and fired the engine up and just at idle I could tell the engine was back on song.
Not really hi tech computerised equipment but still a small piece of wiring causing the problem.
Dig
I have from time to time a power problem from the MAN 440 i have the unfortunate pleasure of driving , it doesn’t have any and never as had s8nce new and was main dealer serviced for the first 6 years
Star down under.:
[zb]
anorak:dave docwra:
I am not sure that the first electronic controls lacked reliability, I think they were and still are diagnosed incorrectly.
What amazes me is how many technicians (hate what that means) still open a injector fuel pipe & crank it over, and
will say it has diesel at the injector it should go.I worked on a Mercedes Atego recently that had been to a couple of workshops for a non starting fault, it would only
start with Easy Start (best thing available to destroy certain engines) when it had not been run for about an hour,
anyway it had had a new crank sensor, the engine ECU bhad been away & had both banks replaced, a new fuel pump &
two injectors, I got the job and looked at the fuel pipe about 12" back from the fuel filter housing as it was damp,
replaced that section of fuel line & hey presto it would start every time, replaced fuel line back to tank not seen it
since, as I said misdiagnosis is the real issue with modern vehicles.I would like to wish everyone a happy & prosperous new Year.
Dave…
…so it was sucking air in from the leak in that pipe?
And in doing so, allowing the fuel to run back to the tank.
Common fault with the mk6/7 transits is the filter head or fuel lines getting air leaks so fuel drains back , coupled with a post filter pump
Sent from my truck
A few years ago my old firm got some new International tractors that were piggy backed so not run on the road yet. First trip out one ran out of fuel even though there was enough fuel to go twice the distance it went. It had a fuel tank on each side and one side was empty but other side still full. There was no valves or taps on the crossover pipe that could have been closed.
On the neck of the filler spout is a metal tube with a rubber tube going down the side of the tank which is a vent. When the cap was taken off fuel started to flow to the other side so the rubber tube was taken off to see if it was blocked which it was as it was full of grease.
International traced this problem back to the assembly line where a worker found it easier to put the rubber tube on if he stuck it in a bucket of grease first.
remy:
A few years ago my old firm got some new International tractors that were piggy backed so not run on the road yet. First trip out one ran out of fuel even though there was enough fuel to go twice the distance it went. It had a fuel tank on each side and one side was empty but other side still full. There was no valves or taps on the crossover pipe that could have been closed.On the neck of the filler spout is a metal tube with a rubber tube going down the side of the tank which is a vent. When the cap was taken off fuel started to flow to the other side so the rubber tube was taken off to see if it was blocked which it was as it was full of grease.
International traced this problem back to the assembly line where a worker found it easier to put the rubber tube on if he stuck it in a bucket of grease first.
He should have been made to take his punishment without grease. 
Would a modern all singing, all-monitoring diagnostics system have flagged up the fuel supply issues mentioned above? If not, what about the plug-in diagnostics in the workshop- would they be able to spot low pressure between the tank and the lift pump, or between the lift pump and injection pump?
The diagnostic tool at the garage is a money maker for them, just to plug it into my car costs 69 pounds even if it doesn’t show what the problem is. 
remy:
The diagnostic tool at the garage is a money maker for them, just to plug it into my car costs 69 pounds even if it doesn’t show what the problem is.
This is what happens when the big globals get hold of something- they use it to rip the smaller firms off, by denying them the means of working on it. The security keys, software and hardware are all jealously guarded.
In motor racing, as far as my limited knowledge of that subject goes, the control gear is “open source”- everyone can work with it, without the intervention of a parasite. The same situation exists on the shopfloor- the PLCs that control the machinery can be repaired or reprogrammed by anyone with the relevant training. The difference is, in those applications, the word “No” is not acceptable currency, because things need to be fixed Now, by whoever is in the vicinity. Nowadays, the control units in some consumer electronics applications are generic- Arduino and Raspberry Pi are two examples- and school kids are learning how to programme the things. It’s only a matter of time before those machines and those skills make the leap from hobby electronics into industrial applications.
There are multiple routes for engineers to take, to fully realise the advantages of electronic control systems. Imagine having a generic engine management/diagnostic system, that an enthusiastic driver could work on, using a laptop or mobile phone- just like in the old days, when a good driver could do much of the maintenance himself. It is all possible, and can happen at any time. For the time being, we must fight the suppliers of mass-produced vehicles- cars and lorries.
Rant over. Have a good 2021, old vehicle enthusiasts. 
Here’s a sensible engine, it’s my Armstrong Siddeley 8hp diesel stationery engine used to power my saw bench for longer than I can remember, my dad used to use it & I “trained” on it from my early teenage years.
There’s no diagnostic software for it & it’s Euro Zero emission rated.
These engines used to be used to power Bamford balers before PTO driven ones were popular & were also the power plant for a small earthmover called a calfdozer.
remy:
The diagnostic tool at the garage is a money maker for them, just to plug it into my car costs 69 pounds even if it doesn’t show what the problem is.
Around £5000 for the hardware and software for a generic system. Then there are the updates to be paid for. Of course there has to be a charge, especially when the manufacturer refuses to pay for diagnostic time.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didn’t know that AS made a steam version Robert! 
I had a calf dozer engine but that was a Dorman.
Pete.
[zb]
anorak:
Doesn’t the diagnostics gear detect a lack of diesel at the inlet to the injection pump?
The PLD system as used by Mercedes is really a very simple system, only time any benefit would be gained from plugging in, would be if it had
a failed injection pump or an EML on, if an injection pump or injector had failed it would not stop the vehicle from starting, unlike a common rail system
engine which relies on building fuel pressure when cranking to allow the engine to start. The clue in the one I mentioned was it would start after some
cranking which ruled out anything serious or costly.
Someone mentioned being ripped off for having their vehicle plugged in, easy way to avoid this charge is the same one I find works with solicitor’s
which is simply don’t ask, We have three legal systems that we pay for annually at a cost of about 12k, we charge if we have to use in the course of repair
or to reset a system, and we also charge if we are just asked to give someone the fault codes or descriptions so they then can carry out their own repairs.
ramone:
I have from time to time a power problem from the MAN 440 i have the unfortunate pleasure of driving , it doesn’t have any and never as had s8nce new and was main dealer serviced for the first 6 years
Get the fuel filters changed if they haven’t been for a while.
Secondly, assuming its got the arsetronic gearbox, try driving it in manual mode for a few days keeping it in the 1000/1500 rev band and see if it improves, my now long gone 440 wouldn’t pull your hat off when i got back into it after others had been using auto when i was off shift, but after half an hour or so driven proper(ish) she’d be back on song.