Our forum is full of photos of restored vehicles, lovingly preserved for future generations to admire- we hope. However, the practice of preserving old machinery pre-dates the majority of the vehicles we are discussing. What about the vehicles which passed into preservation when the current crop of oldies were still factory fresh, and earning a living? Are the lorries which graced the classic motor shows of a quarter of a century ago still “alive”? How many have stood a second test of time?
Phots of the vehicle in its first preserved state, with a current pic, please! Plus lots of information!
[zb]
anorak:
Are the lorries which graced the classic motor shows of a quarter of a century ago still “alive”? How many have stood a second test of time?
[zb]
anorak:
Are the lorries which graced the classic motor shows of a quarter of a century ago still “alive”? How many have stood a second test of time?
Some cracking motors there. Shame about all that mindless horn blowing in the second ‘bonus points’ clip; and did you notice that almost every lorry driver crossed his hands to guide his wagon round the roundabout and every coach driver fed the wheel effortlessly without all that melodramatic flapping? Just an observation. Clearly I was in the wrong profession and shoulda gone on the buses! OK for power-steering if that’s your style; but with armstrong? I’ll get my coat.
I take it that some of the vehicles in the first clip appeared in the recent Llandudno video? Without jotting their registration numbers down on a piece of paper, I would not have been aware. I was more interested in reading of the history of individual lorries, after they first passed into preservation: the changes in ownership, the work needed to keep them on the road etc etc.
For example, here is a screen grab of one of the vehicles in the 1994 show:
ERF-NGC-European:
Some cracking motors there. Shame about all that mindless horn blowing in the second ‘bonus points’ clip; and did you notice that almost every lorry driver crossed his hands to guide his wagon round the roundabout and every coach driver fed the wheel effortlessly without all that melodramatic flapping? Just an observation. Clearly I was in the wrong profession and shoulda gone on the buses! OK for power-steering if that’s your style; but with armstrong? I’ll get my coat.
The old push pull bringing the hands together at both ends bus driver and driving test type method is certainly more elegant.
But have to admit that I preferred the throw of the arm to whichever side and grab the wheel because it provides some added intertia to get it all moving.Also truck steer axle weights are a bit heavier than buses ?.
But preferably given decent power steering, which with a few exceptions is mostly what I drove, I’d more often ‘palm the wheel’ in good old American fashion.Obviously don’t want the bus driver style polished to a mirror finish when a dirty wheel provides the best grip for that.
As for how they keep those old types in running condition.
It must be a massive undertaking of remanufacture of long gone obsolete parts and/or some serious reclamation of old corroded castings and some fantastic examples of old coach work skills or other truck body rebuilding.
An interesting question posed by Anorak. I personally think with trucks, cars and tractors the will to preserve, restore and collect lies mainly with people who either used or aspired to own when the machine was prime in the person’s youth.
Unless the machine is very rare and desirable then, I suspect, the enthusiasm for a particular era will wane once the enthusiasts have gone. I know more about ag machinery than trucks and cars but feel this can be observed by prices and real values. When I was still at school an example of a sought after tractor might have been a nice Field Marshall from the 40 or early 50s. Now the tractors making good money are 70s and 80s machines.
essexpete:
An interesting question posed by Anorak. I personally think with trucks, cars and tractors the will to preserve, restore and collect lies mainly with people who either used or aspired to own when the machine was prime in the person’s youth.
Unless the machine is very rare and desirable then, I suspect, the enthusiasm for a particular era will wane once the enthusiasts have gone. I know more about ag machinery than trucks and cars but feel this can be observed by prices and real values. When I was still at school an example of a sought after tractor might have been a nice Field Marshall from the 40 or early 50s. Now the tractors making good money are 70s and 80s machines.
Are those 40s and 50s tractors hidden away in air-conditioned private collections, or have they just been forgotten, as a new generation of enthusiasts want to furnish memories of their childhoods? I noticed that the 1990s vintage lorry show had loads of motors from the 1950s in it- ERFs, Atkis and Fodens- but you don’t see many of that breed among the F88s and 141s in a present-day old lorry show. It would be a shame if the real oldies aren’t properly preserved.
essexpete:
An interesting question posed by Anorak. I personally think with trucks, cars and tractors the will to preserve, restore and collect lies mainly with people who either used or aspired to own when the machine was prime in the person’s youth.
Unless the machine is very rare and desirable then, I suspect, the enthusiasm for a particular era will wane once the enthusiasts have gone. I know more about ag machinery than trucks and cars but feel this can be observed by prices and real values. When I was still at school an example of a sought after tractor might have been a nice Field Marshall from the 40 or early 50s. Now the tractors making good money are 70s and 80s machines.
Are those 40s and 50s tractors hidden away in air-conditioned private collections, or have they just been forgotten, as a new generation of enthusiasts want to furnish memories of their childhoods? I noticed that the 1990s vintage lorry show had loads of motors from the 1950s in it- ERFs, Atkis and Fodens- but you don’t see many of that breed among the F88s and 141s in a present-day old lorry show. It would be a shame if the real oldies aren’t properly preserved.
I doubt if very much old ag machinery is kept like the top end classic car investors.
I know of one farm that has 2 wartime Minneapolis Moline tractors. They were restored perhaps 40 years ago. They sit in an open fronted cart lodge and not run for years. I guess the 60s and more so 70s and 80s tractors are more friendly for a tractor run. One of the MMs was sold by my Grandfather (it was a lease lend type of purchase) in the late 40s to the family that own it now.
Another point: I still have a couple of 50s loading shovels. They are probably worth not much more than scrap despite being more rare than the ag skids they are built on. There does not seem to be the interest in old industrial based machines. I think in part because most operators were glad to get off them. They are also slow and heavy and need some serious transporting. Only assumptions!
If anyone is interested old Chaseside and Weatherill
[zb]
anorak:
Our forum is full of photos of restored vehicles, lovingly preserved for future generations to admire- we hope. However, the practice of preserving old machinery pre-dates the majority of the vehicles we are discussing. What about the vehicles which passed into preservation when the current crop of oldies were still factory fresh, and earning a living? Are the lorries which graced the classic motor shows of a quarter of a century ago still “alive”? How many have stood a second test of time?
Phots of the vehicle in its first preserved state, with a current pic, please! Plus lots of information!
Bye 'ell I’ve just enjoyed that Youtube video, it brought back a lot of good memories for an old man. Thanks for posting it.
To me most (all) the lorries in the video were the machines that drivers of my vintage worked every day, year in year out. They were what I call ‘proper’ lorries and if I were a bit fitter I would happily (very) take any one of them and do a weeks work with it.
I make no secret (or apologies) when I say I haven’t much time for the ‘all look alike modern so called super trucks’ . 4/5/6/700hp ■■? aye, right, I’ll take a 290/350 ■■■■■■■ with a Fuller ( or a TS3 in a 4 wheel tipper ) )any day of the week.
[zb]
anorak:
Are the lorries which graced the classic motor shows of a quarter of a century ago still “alive”? How many have stood a second test of time?
Some cracking motors there. Shame about all that mindless horn blowing in the second ‘bonus points’ clip; and did you notice that almost every lorry driver crossed his hands to guide his wagon round the roundabout and every coach driver fed the wheel effortlessly without all that melodramatic flapping? Just an observation. Clearly I was in the wrong profession and shoulda gone on the buses! OK for power-steering if that’s your style; but with armstrong? I’ll get my coat.
Some thoughts on on driving styles.
If you were driving in a half cab bus there was not a lot of room to “flap your arms” so it may have become standard practice for bus drivers to adopt the “feed the wheel” style. If you are in a front entrance bus or a coach then passengers will at some point be standing and/or sitting next, or at least close by you. You don’t want anyone panicking when you are flapping your arms about going round a corner.
[zb]
anorak:
Are the lorries which graced the classic motor shows of a quarter of a century ago still “alive”? How many have stood a second test of time?
Some cracking motors there. Shame about all that mindless horn blowing in the second ‘bonus points’ clip; and did you notice that almost every lorry driver crossed his hands to guide his wagon round the roundabout and every coach driver fed the wheel effortlessly without all that melodramatic flapping? Just an observation. Clearly I was in the wrong profession and shoulda gone on the buses! OK for power-steering if that’s your style; but with armstrong? I’ll get my coat.
Some thoughts on on driving styles.
If you were driving in a half cab bus there was not a lot of room to “flap your arms” so it may have become standard practice for bus drivers to adopt the “feed the wheel” style. If you are in a front entrance bus or a coach then passengers will at some point be standing and/or sitting next, or at least close by you. You don’t want anyone panicking when you are flapping your arms about going round a corner.
Just a thought.
They evoke amusing images!
As a schoolboy we were given a pre-driving course in which we fed dinner plates from hand to hand. I was taught to feed the wheel on lorries because it was the quickest possible way to get the wheel round. “Big handsful!”, we were taught in those days. And for a lorry (or bus) with no power-steering I still believe that to be true. I drove both lorries and buses without p/s and I can vouch for this. However, it’s not necessarily true of power-steering equipped vehicles. But even then, we were taught that although it was possible to get the wheel round really quickly it was better to use the old method because you were always in complete control, as your hands were unlikely to slip.
Police driving instructors came fairly late to the table on this one and now permit other methods. If what I see in the street nowadays is anything to go by I would guess that driving instructors everywhere appear to have dropped the feed method. As a personal preference, having never crossed hands in 52 years of driving, I have stuck to the old method, even in my Beamer!
I think it’s horses for courses now, which is why it surprised me to see lorries from the '50s driven in the ‘modern’ way. Incidentally, in North America they laugh at our feed method and don’t see the sense in it.
Looking at the original video, the Ken Thomas ERFs still exist and ‘EMA’ EMA 876 still exists in the same colours but with different signwriting. This vehicle was originally restored by Swains of Stretton.
This Matador shown in around 1980 is currently under restoration:
Around half a dozen lorries from the same fleet are still around - VKO 520 J having changed hands recently with several pictures of the vehicle in various colours to be found on the internet blue & red, green & red, and light green. Another, RKJ 160M belongs to a forum contributor.
Several ex BRS Bristols are about as well as a Phorpes Bricks AEC Mercury.
In the bus world two companies deserve a mention for repatriating vehicles from around the World. Ensignbus of Purfleet owned by the Newman family, who have carried out many stunning restorations and the London Bus Company of Northfleet who repatriated around a dozen RT type buses from Canada a few years ago.
Sometimes it is the most unexpected things which cause difficulty in restoration- British Cycle Thread pipe fittings and the accompanying unobtainable brass olives make the replacement of just one length of steel air pipe a real headache.
From an insider – fashions change, so do aspirations. I’ve had my 82 year old Albion for 50 of them. When I first went to shows I’d typically meet two sorts – “I used to have/drive one of these” and “Dad used to have/drive one of these”. In the early days I turned down several five-figure offers for it. If I sold it now I’d be hard-pressed to get any more than that as very few people looking at it now feel any connection to it, there’s very little interest in the market for pre-war now. Now when I’m out with it, it’s still as popular as ever, people love to see it, hear about it and look it over but it’s mostly out of fascination and a bit of disbelief not nostalgia. Handle only start (Armstrong starter ), centre throttle (that always gets 'em), the sheer starkness of the cab when I let them sit in it. Put that together with steering that’s silly heavy, a comfortable cruising speed in the early 30s, back breaking ride on basic seats, and H and S would expect you to wear ear defenders even though it’s petrol. Now it’s the Volvo F10s and the like that “I used to drive” or “dad used to have”.
Times change.
Bernard
Those are lovely old machines- still capable of doing a bit of work, I would say.
Dad bought the Weatherill as an obsolete machine in the early 70s to move pallets of bricks. From the mid 80 till the late 80s it had a flat 8 bale grab fitted and loaded hay and straw. A pig to drive really particularly shuttling with clutch knackering the left knee. The Chaseside I bought on an ebay whim. It is very similar to one Dad bought new in '59. I learnt to drive a loader on a slightly older one as soon as I could reach the pedals. I cut that for scrap in the 80s and was always annoyed with my self. I have a cab for the Chaseside and must fit it one day.
“Steering, in view of the weight of the vehicle, is surprisingly light”. I believe Bernard.
albion1938:
From an insider – fashions change, so do aspirations…Now it’s the Volvo F10s and the like that “I used to drive” or “dad used to have”.
Times change.
Bernard
I hope those machines from the earlier age do not succumb to the hot knife, just because the present generation of enthusiasts prefer “modern” oldies. In another couple of decades, they may be considered more attractive than the F10 and similar vehicles.
“Steering, in view of the weight of the vehicle, is surprisingly light”. I believe Bernard.
albion1938:
From an insider – fashions change, so do aspirations…Now it’s the Volvo F10s and the like that “I used to drive” or “dad used to have”.
Times change.
Bernard
I hope those machines from the earlier age do not succumb to the hot knife, just because the present generation of enthusiasts prefer “modern” oldies. In another couple of decades, they may be considered more attractive than the F10 and similar vehicles.
The 8 wheeler Albion gets quite a good write up. Fuel consumption does not that bad either for a pre-war vehicle. I did not realise that Albion had tier own engines.
“Steering, in view of the weight of the vehicle, is surprisingly light”. I believe Bernard.
albion1938:
From an insider – fashions change, so do aspirations…Now it’s the Volvo F10s and the like that “I used to drive” or “dad used to have”.
Times change.
Bernard
I hope those machines from the earlier age do not succumb to the hot knife, just because the present generation of enthusiasts prefer “modern” oldies. In another couple of decades, they may be considered more attractive than the F10 and similar vehicles.
To be fair the steering on mine is actually a pleasure to use out on the road. It’s when you’re manoeuvring at low speeds its a mare, I’m driving it empty, lord knows what it was like when loaded especially as big overloads were an everyday thing then. It’s because the steering is so high-geared, it’s only 3 turns lock to lock, you can negotiate a roundabout with just a couple of twitches but not so much fun shunting into a tight spot. And because it’s so direct it needs a light touch out on the road, grip it too tight and it wanders, you have to give it a light touch and let it find it’s own way.
Bernard
Bernard
“Steering, in view of the weight of the vehicle, is surprisingly light”. I believe Bernard.
albion1938:
From an insider – fashions change, so do aspirations…Now it’s the Volvo F10s and the like that “I used to drive” or “dad used to have”.
Times change.
Bernard
I hope those machines from the earlier age do not succumb to the hot knife, just because the present generation of enthusiasts prefer “modern” oldies. In another couple of decades, they may be considered more attractive than the F10 and similar vehicles.
The 8 wheeler Albion gets quite a good write up. Fuel consumption does not that bad either for a pre-war vehicle. I did not realise that Albion had tier own engines.
Albion were superb engineers, made good diesels, and their 8 wheelers were well liked, being powerful, economical and quite light to drive compared with some of the competition. But after Leyland took them over in 1951, their development was stopped and Leyland engines and other components gradually became the norm in Albions, and lorry models were dropped or wound down as they were competing with parent Leyland. At the time Leyland took over Albion were developing a modular underfloor engine where standard modules could be bolted together to form an engine of anything from 2-12 cylinders, that soon disappeared, never went further than prototype. The biggest Albion engine survived to become the Leyland 900, used in Scammell Contractors, big export Leylands and railcars. Albion rear axles were excellent, used across the Leyland range, survived into the DAF era, what’s left of the company now US owned still supply axles to many manufacturers.
Bernard
In addition to the F10/141 “sector”, there are hundreds of 1990s vehicles on the preservation scene already- 143s and later F12s and 16s. The convenience of being able to mix with busy present-day traffic must play a part. I wonder how old you can go, before it becomes a nuisance using the motorway, for example? Those 1958 Scania Vabis LV75s seemed well up to the job- 165bhp would power a rigid with a living van on the back, without getting in the way of modern wagons. An early 1960s Leyland, with a P680 in it, would have no difficulty either- I would guess.
