The HGV Agency Fandango

GasGas:

Grandpa:
What I’m noticing is a move to a system closer to the American one. The o/t rates have gone, equal day/night rates, breaks unpaid, employ yourself and pay someone (umbrella/Ltd) to sort out your own tax … All it needs now is for employers to sort out a mileage for the job and offer a fixed sum to do it. :confused:

Yes, it’s what the rest of the EU calls ‘The Anglo-Saxon model’ and they don’t think much of it.

They think well enough of it to be attacking the railwaymen in France (which is what helped to kick off the gilet jaunes riots), not with the intention of creating a monopoly “European Rail” like British Rail, but to jab more competition into another sector, force down pay and conditions, and emulate the British privatisation.

GasGas:
I think you may rather have missed the point, Harry!

It’s the Brits leading the race to the bottom in the EU, and the French and Germans pulling the other way.

Example: France and Germany clamping down on the practice of stationing drivers from low wage economies in their cabs in high wage economies by preventing full-length weekly rests being taken in the cab.

Example: Insisting that drivers working in other EU states are paid at least the NMW for the state they are working in, irrespective of where the company that employs them is based.

The effect of it is still to partially stop bosses inducing mass movements of people to undercut pay. Why then are we still defending the single market principle that capital, labour, and economic products should move freely? That just gives an advantage to the member state with the most right-wing government who succeed in attacking their workers the most.

The tactics you highlight will only protect workers whose jobs are inherently local and must be done nearby, or whose “cultural capital” provides them with an advantage over migrant labour. It will not defend, for example, manufacturing workers whose entire factory can just be moved elsewhere where labour is cheap, and the products imported back in tariff-free.

Limiting the number of workers from the accession countries that were allowed to enter the ‘old’ EU. The UK opened its doors to all and sundry even before the accession countries had joined. It’s not Brussels which is to blame for the influx of cheap workers, it’s something that successive British Governments chose to do all by themselves.

In truth it is both. The Tories have ramped up non-EU immigration instead, but they can be voted out. We can, and do, tariff non-EU imports of goods and services.

The EU single market has provided the excuse that nobody can do anything about these things when they arise from movements within the EU.

It is the single market itself, which has allowed Thatcherite economics here to have an adverse effect on France and Germany - without which, every time the Brits cut pay, they can just put up their tariffs on Britain and deprive us of any exports won on the back of cuts and low-road competition.

The reforms of social security in Germany around 2003 (called the Haartz reforms, iirc), were on the back of the fact that German workers were being forced to compete with low-road competition in Britain and elsewhere.

In general, German and French businesses like things done well, British businesses like things done cheap.

Bosses are the same everywhere. France and Germany simply have stronger working class solidarity, and they too have turned against the single market. The million refugees that Germany took in, were said (even by German left-wingers) to be a ploy to give a dose of discipline to the German working class, whose strength was starting to make German exports less competitive (and therefore the profits of German bosses lower).

And if you think things are bad now, wait until we leave the EU and open up our nation to cheap labour from India, China etc while getting rid of all that EU ‘red tape’ covering ‘workers rights’ and other things that Rees-Mogg and his posh chums regard as ‘tiresome.’

But if you’re accepting these arguments, then why are you favouring the EU single market which is doing exactly the same?

You’re tacitly accepting the argument that all those working class “xenophobes and racists”, worried about their “identity” and “culture” (as the Blairite Remainers argue), actually have a legitimate grievance grounded in economic concerns about unbridled market forces.

It’s quite correct that the radical Tory right be exposed for what they are, but there’s no point defending the status quo with the EU single market in the same breath, because then people may as well take their chances with the radical right.

GasGas:
And that, Yorkshire Terrier, is spot-on.

Whether we are in the EU or out, productive trades such as truck driving will be leached on by ‘rent seekers’: people and organisations like ‘agencies’ which add no value to the work done, but somehow must be paid off so the work can be done. It’s like another form of taxation, only the revenue goes to private individuals rather than the Government.

Agreed, but even the agency model relies on having a surfeit of workers - the bosses would not tolerate it, if they risked every single day not having bums on seats, or if competition between firms quickly drove up pay to sky-high levels.

Free movement, even though it is not the single cause of every problem, does not help any problem, and provides a lever for other policies which attack workers.

Movement (not just on people, but on capital and on products) is only tolerable when there are effective democratic controls (i.e. movement is not free at all), that can quickly act to identify and close down bosses who are using it in any way that is unfavourable to workers.

A very interesting post, I particularly like the bit about Umbrella companies…seeing as ive just typed a letter for my wife to HMRC about them…she has been trying for a long time to get some answers, i even mentioned it on here, the fact that she was being deducted from her wages `Employers N.I. and an apprenticeship levy. (wtf is that anyway)…but the good news is she has finally got the answers she was seeking. Forcing an employee to pay for an employers N.I., is in fact Illegal ( HMRC advice )…but in composing the letter to them, it was also mentioned about the levy…about personal tax allowances, and holiday pay deducted weekly, but no sign of holiday pay…as her rate is decided by the work agency as a per-day allowance…seems a lot of people are being ripped off by umbrella companies…and the more that complain, the more closer they are to being closed down…or to get their act together.

Rjan:

GasGas:

Grandpa:
What I’m noticing is a move to a system closer to the American one. The o/t rates have gone, equal day/night rates, breaks unpaid, employ yourself and pay someone (umbrella/Ltd) to sort out your own tax … All it needs now is for employers to sort out a mileage for the job and offer a fixed sum to do it. :confused:

Yes, it’s what the rest of the EU calls ‘The Anglo-Saxon model’ and they don’t think much of it.

They think well enough of it to be attacking the railwaymen in France (which is what helped to kick off the gilet jaunes riots), not with the intention of creating a monopoly “European Rail” like British Rail, but to jab more competition into another sector, force down pay and conditions, and emulate the British privatisation.

I don’t think this would apply in England-land

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49662134

You’re tacitly accepting the argument that all those working class “xenophobes and racists”, worried about their “identity” and “culture” (as the Blairite Remainers argue), actually have a legitimate grievance grounded in economic concerns about unbridled market forces.

I’ve never denied it. I’m just saying that what the extreme Brexiteers are planning looks far worse. Already restrictions of foreign former students are being relaxed, and there’s more to come. Trade agreements with India and China are going to involve the UK taking considerable numbers of their workers.

My message to ordinary people who think that Brexit will improve their lot is to be careful what they wish for.

When questioned on the negative economic impact that Brexit would have on ordinary people Jacob Rees-Mogg admitted that there would be some negative aspects but ordinary people could use their savings, and cash in their bonds and investments to tide them over. So, that’s alright, then. :smiley:

GasGas:
I don’t think this would apply in England-land

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49662134

An “industrial accident” :laughing: :laughing:

I suppose their logic is simply that if you die whilst on the job, presumably for any reason, then you are covered.

I can’t see the problem with the logic myself, if you understand it as striking a balance closer to comprehensive early death coverage, rather than coverage based on fault or negligence.

There is no suggestion that the man’s cardiac situation was caused by misconduct - that was probably either innate or caused over the long term by his work. And since he died on work’s time, that’s all that counts for the French. If he’d slipped over a banana peel, his family would have been entitled to early death benefits too.

It’s only the right wing papers that had anything to say about the case, because they want us all to laugh at the idea that employers should be responsible for providing early death coverage.

GasGas:

You’re tacitly accepting the argument that all those working class “xenophobes and racists”, worried about their “identity” and “culture” (as the Blairite Remainers argue), actually have a legitimate grievance grounded in economic concerns about unbridled market forces.

I’ve never denied it. I’m just saying that what the extreme Brexiteers are planning looks far worse. Already restrictions of foreign former students are being relaxed, and there’s more to come. Trade agreements with India and China are going to involve the UK taking considerable numbers of their workers.

My message to ordinary people who think that Brexit will improve their lot is to be careful what they wish for.

When questioned on the negative economic impact that Brexit would have on ordinary people Jacob Rees-Mogg admitted that there would be some negative aspects but ordinary people could use their savings, and cash in their bonds and investments to tide them over. So, that’s alright, then. :smiley:

Well I certainly agree about the Tory right - and I would similarly warn people about what they have in store - but none of these things you mention are necessarily inherent in the Brexit process, but about what the Tories will do later.

The UK does not have to strike new free trade deals with anyone. It can continue to export to the rest of the world without any deals, if the rest of the world actually want our exports. And stemming imports from the rest of the world is precisely the point of the exercise, in order to drive up demand for domestic labour and return bargaining power to routine occupations.

The Tories are also perfectly capable of accepting free movement of workers from India and China now, whilst we are within the EU, and already do to some extent. That’s partly how they are keeping immigration levels up since the Brexit vote, now that EU workers have been deterred somewhat.

The intake allowed by the Tories just don’t have the right to roam and work in Europe, and there are already compulsory border controls on people between the UK and the EU mainland, because we are not part of the Schengen area (although British citizens have the right to cross).

This is why the most important thing is to elect a Labour government to bring Brexit to a compromise, not for workers to be duking it out over the issue amongst themselves.

It is especially important for left-wingers not to be getting into bed with the hardline Blairite Remainers and helping to spread their absurd propaganda and fearmongering, or to indulge their cantankerous demands that Labour pursue extreme Remain policies like overriding Article 50 or holding a second referendum at the expense of a huge slice of the Labour electorate who support Brexit.

All of which is to the detriment of the ability of the Labour party to reach a compromise on the issue with workers who want an end to the single market.

In any negotiation or settlement with the EU, Labour will completely jettison all the demands of the radical right (such as their desire to strike anti-worker free trade deals with the US or India, who have similar right-wing politics dominated by neoliberalism, or their desire to undercut EU minimum standards on workers rights and so on), so we need not spend the credit of the Labour party opposing Brexit on those grounds, only to stave off threats that will only materialise if the Tories are allowed to stay in government whilst executing Brexit.

It’s a one way bet. If Labour win, Brexit under Labour will not mean attacks on workers.

What the Blairites mean by the “costs” and “pain” of Brexit are almost entirely the costs to businesses of hiring workers to manage the process, to reorient the economy towards employing settled workers rather than allowing bosses to exploit itinerant migrant labour, or to reorient towards domestic investment (and raising capital through proper taxation of the rich or through offering good pensions to workers) rather than being beholden to foreign capital investment that constantly threatens to flee if they can’t exploit workers to generate the levels of profit they want. These “costs” to business are exactly the gains to workers.

If Labour loses, then under the Tories there will be attacks on workers regardless. The real option is not Remain or Leave. It is Tory or Labour, and Labour voters who may prefer Remain have to accept that a large proportion of the working class has had enough of the single market and its anti-socialist competition rules and free trading arrangements, which only magnify the power of right-wing national governments and hobble left-wing national governments.

This incidentally is why I implore workers who support Leaving to get up to speed, join the Labour party, and make the arguments and make your views known. Influence.

It’s the first time in a generation that Labour has been led by a stubbornly Eurosceptic leader, at a time of national crisis over the issue of EU membership, and needs every hand it can get in opposition to the Blairites who have all the megaphones and elite media contacts to promote Remain, but they have very little grassroots support.

If anyone supporting Brexit thinks Boris or Nigel are going to sprinkle glitter over your payslip, or close borders, I suggest you keep a tub of vaseline to hand just in case.

If anyone supporting Brexit thinks Boris or Nigel are going to sprinkle glitter over your payslip, or close borders, I suggest you keep a tub of vaseline to hand just in case.

:smiley:

And ain’t that the truth!

And on that happy note of agreement, I’m out of this thread!

Rjan:

GasGas:
I don’t think this would apply in England-land

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49662134

An “industrial accident” :laughing: :laughing:

I suppose their logic is simply that if you die whilst on the job, presumably for any reason, then you are covered.

I can’t see the problem with the logic myself, if you understand it as striking a balance closer to comprehensive early death coverage, rather than coverage based on fault or negligence.

There is no suggestion that the man’s cardiac situation was caused by misconduct - that was probably either innate or caused over the long term by his work. And since he died on work’s time, that’s all that counts for the French. If he’d slipped over a banana peel, his family would have been entitled to early death benefits too.

It’s only the right wing papers that had anything to say about the case, because they want us all to laugh at the idea that employers should be responsible for providing early death coverage.

In my last full-time job, there was this “Death in Service Benefit” - a five-figure sum that was supposed to be paid out to the bereaved family of any employee who died whilst working there.
Because this “benefit” is non-contributional however, there was a rather unsavoury aspect of it becoming “at management’s discretion” meaning that if the management couldn’t be arsed to put the wheels in motion for the employee’s family to get GIVEN this benefit amount (around a year’s pay, it seems) - then of course the deceased ain’t there to “apply for it” - are they?
The family, in their grief - are unlikely to send someone around to pick up a cheque “no quibble” on behalf of the deceased’s family either, - are they?

I wonder if we should all post in on “Who got this automatic benefit, and who didn’t”…
I suspect that unless an actual couple were working at the same venue - the payout would be lapsed by penny-pinching lazy managers - more often than not. :imp: :angry:

GasGas:
If anyone supporting Brexit thinks Boris or Nigel are going to sprinkle glitter over your payslip, or close borders, I suggest you keep a tub of vaseline to hand just in case.

:smiley:

And ain’t that the truth!

And on that happy note of agreement, I’m out of this thread!

Don’t care about immigration. Don’t care about closing borders. To cause a “rise in pay” - we only need to cause a decrease in the number of available workers to do a particular job.
I was thinking of “increasing the workload” rather than “reducing the number of migrant drivers available”.

DCPC, The high cost of training, the lack of decent full-time contracts, and the discouragement even when one GETS a job from doing anything remotely resembling “thinking outside of the box” - all weigh against keeping wages flat, and where they are for much longer.

We now enter September Recruitment Season for the Christmas Temps.

Pay attention folks! - Ask yourself - what would motivate YOU to up-sticks, and have a bit of a “change-about” your workplace patterns hmm? :bulb:

Rjan:

GasGas:
I don’t think this would apply in England-land

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49662134

An “industrial accident” :laughing: :laughing:

Well, at least he died balls-deep in some French madame, yelling “OH OUI!” likely holding on to her ■■■■ and not holding onto a steering wheel and screaming “OH CRAP!!!”

ETS:

Rjan:

GasGas:
I don’t think this would apply in England-land

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49662134

An “industrial accident” :laughing: :laughing:

Well, at least he died balls-deep in some French madame, yelling “OH OUI!” likely holding on to her ■■■■ and not holding onto a steering wheel and screaming “OH CRAP!!!”

Agreed, it was a story full of happy endings! :laughing: :laughing:

Rjan:
This incidentally is why I implore workers who support Leaving to get up to speed, join the Labour party, and make the arguments and make your views known. Influence.

It’s the first time in a generation that Labour has been led by a stubbornly Eurosceptic leader, at a time of national crisis over the issue of EU membership, and needs every hand it can get in opposition to the Blairites who have all the megaphones and elite media contacts to promote Remain, but they have very little grassroots support.

If anyone supporting Brexit thinks Boris or Nigel are going to sprinkle glitter over your payslip, or close borders, I suggest you keep a tub of vaseline to hand just in case.

The reason long-time Labour voters have deserted them in droves is precisely because of their utter contempt for the working class. Do you really think they are going to start listening now?

And where on earth do you get the idea from that Corbyn is a Eurosceptic? He may have been for decades but that all changed as soon as he got a sniff of the Halls of Power. All Labour are now are Conservatives in red ties, and if you want to vote Conservative then you may as well vote for the Real Deal.

Harry Monk:

Rjan:

The reason long-time Labour voters have deserted them in droves is precisely because of their utter contempt for the working class. Do you really think they are going to start listening now?

Indeed, but that’s precisely the problem - some have tuned out to the point they’re not listening even when Labour has been punished to the point that it is capable of moving in the other direction, and when a swell of the grassroots has thrown up a leader utterly reviled by those contemptuous MPs, their media mouthpieces, and the minority of Blairite members.

And where on earth do you get the idea from that Corbyn is a Eurosceptic? He may have been for decades but that all changed as soon as he got a sniff of the Halls of Power. All Labour are now are Conservatives in red ties, and if you want to vote Conservative then you may as well vote for the Real Deal.

There’s only so far Corbyn can go if all those who are actually willing to join and vote for Labour, even contingently, are Remainers - many of them hardliners, many of them the same old Blairites who are dug in on the belief that they’ll soon be able to bring him down and go back to business as usual.

It’s not “sniffs of the halls of power” that have corrupted Corbyn, it’s the simple fact that as leader of the party he has to make some concession to the views of his party - that is, those who are actually willing to be members and voters.

The Blairite side of the party - have been manifestly responsible for the poor situation the British Workforce now finds itself in.

Instead of trying to deal with the mess THEY created - we now hear them banging on about “doing away with Zero Hours Contracts” as if they were a bad thing?

Do away with ZHC - and we’re heading fast-forward to where FRANCE is right now, where Full-timers have so many Yuman Rights that workplaces become extremely relucant to take them on to START with - and that’s assuming you can get past the militant shop floor steward who won’t let any “troublemakers” like yours truly to be considered for employment by the managers to begin with. :open_mouth:

I’m buggered if I have to become a Lefty to get a f…n’ blue collar job! :imp: :angry:

Winseer:
Do away with ZHC - and we’re heading fast-forward to where FRANCE is right now, where Full-timers have so many Yuman Rights that workplaces become extremely relucant to take them on to START with - and that’s assuming you can get past the militant shop floor steward who won’t let any “troublemakers” like yours truly to be considered for employment by the managers to begin with. :open_mouth:

French bosses are not afraid to take on workers - over 90% of French workers are employed, in jobs with better security.

The moderately higher unemployment in France is mainly because they lack sufficient tariffs and capital controls, to ensure there is no competition against their workers. The international fly-by-nights who rely on cheap, irregular labour come to Britain to set up shop instead, knowing that they don’t have to pay French levels of wages or job security.

The bosses always deploy project fear, complain they’re too poor and insist that the market won’t stand for workers’ demands.

Rjan:
The moderately higher unemployment in France is mainly because they lack sufficient tariffs and capital controls, to ensure there is no competition against their workers. The international fly-by-nights who rely on cheap, irregular labour come to Britain to set up shop instead, knowing that they don’t have to pay French levels of wages or job security.

The bosses always deploy project fear, complain they’re too poor and insist that the market won’t stand for workers’ demands.

Encouraged by UK government who see it as “investment” which is “providing jobs” for people.

This is another thing where the EU takes the flak for something that UK government has the power to resolve, like immigration.

toonsy:

Rjan:

Encouraged by UK government who see it as “investment” which is “providing jobs” for people.

This is another thing where the EU takes the flak for something that UK government has the power to resolve, like immigration.

Well, the problem with the single market is that the UK government can still decide to undercut other members - like France. Any other member can also decide to undercut us.

But nobody can decide to “overcut” anyone (without jobs and investment fleeing to the next member). It’s a one-way ratchet to low wages.