Guy Big J 8lxb:
[zb]
anorak:Frankydobo:
Were any built? I would like to hear a 12 cylinder one.
Me too, as a kid I would have wet myself
RJ
Carryfast:
gingerfold:
Foden two stroke engine… a lot of noise and fuss for very little performance… and yes I have driven one.Probably the result of the school of thought which says that two stroke must mean exactly twice the specific output.
So not exactly surprising from such a stupidly small capacity motor.Had they gone for 8 litre + it probably would have been a different kettle of fish.
Unusual firing orders according to that link, FD4: 1 3 2 4 and particularly for the FD6: 1 5 3 4 2 6
Folk keep harping on about poor performance but I have never found a driver who thought that? Same goes for the Rootes TS3 of course, drivers loved them. Don’t forget that when it was originally being fitted into trucks the 20mph limit was still in place, later upped to 30 of course, and gross weights were much lower. Admittedly the four/five speed gearbox was inadequate when weights were increased but Fodens soon sorted that out. As weights increased then Fodens inreased the performance as well. Other makers fitted Meadows engines and even they couldn’t break into the Gardner/Leyland engine market in a big way, Dorman were the same in the lighter ranges as Perkins had that pretty much sown up and Dorman failed. I’ve often thought that if Gardner hadn’t diverted away from marine and industrial to making an engine specifically for road vehicles just what engines would makers such as ERF, Atkinson, Guy etc etc have fitted into their trucks and at least Foden’s had the foresight to produce their own power unit to compensate for the possibility of Gardners being unable to keep up owing to the demand from other makers and leave them in short supply.
No matter what you may think of Foden they were never shy of trying different things. Plastic cabs (first in the UK), tilt cabs,(first in the UK) half cabs, crane carriers, dumpers, a splitter gearbox with more than five or six gears, the choice of around half a dozen different cabs at one time when other makers probably offered only one or two, the Twin Load, one offs etc etc. Some were succesfull, others were not, but they were never afraid of trying. Also they made virtually everything ‘in house’ so were not reliant on outside suppliers.
Pete.
windrush:
No new design of engine would have converted ‘stick in the mud’ operators in the fifties/sixties away from tried and proven engines like Gardner and perhaps Leyland (■■■■■■■ were not big here in the fifties/early sixties which is when the Foden 'stroker was being offered in reasonable numbers) as they tended to stick with what they knew and trusted Dennis. I doubt that even makers like Detroit, which were well proven in the USA and other countries, would have made any impact with their products in the UK? You ran a ‘radical engine for the time’ yourself, a ■■■■■■■ V8, and they didn’t have a good reputation either, our local Ford dealership was awash with them having warranty problems and Ford gave up with them in the end.Pete.
I totally agree with what you say Pete. However I can say that the sole V8 ■■■■■■■ I ran was driven exclusively by me for the length of time I ran it which was circa 3 years and in that time it never put a foot wrong ! I treated it with respect and changed the oil every 2 weeks , filter every second change. I very rarely drove it over 50 mph on the M/ways and it purred away as smooth as a sewing machine ! My first two units were 26 & 28 ton Mastiffs with Perkins V8 as they were all I could s-t-r-e-t-c-h to at that time !! Again I had a very decent Driver on the 26 tonner and I mainly drove the 28 tonner. The Perkins got the same oil changes as the ■■■■■■■ and apart from a fuel starvation problem in the early days of the 28 tonner, which we solved by incorporating an upturned “jam jar” attachment fitted in the “V” which gave the pump a constant head of fuel that was the extent of our problems. I also recall that later on there started to be a slight whiff of burnt oil from the 26 tonner but it was nowt to worry about. Both Perkins also gave faultless service but I would stress they were treated with care ! I finally got to able to purchase the Borderers and sold off the V 8’s which in way could they be classed as front line fleet motors IMHO ! Cheers Dennis.
Bewick:
windrush:
No new design of engine would have converted ‘stick in the mud’ operators in the fifties/sixties away from tried and proven engines like Gardner and perhaps Leyland (■■■■■■■ were not big here in the fifties/early sixties which is when the Foden 'stroker was being offered in reasonable numbers) as they tended to stick with what they knew and trusted Dennis. I doubt that even makers like Detroit, which were well proven in the USA and other countries, would have made any impact with their products in the UK? You ran a ‘radical engine for the time’ yourself, a ■■■■■■■ V8, and they didn’t have a good reputation either, our local Ford dealership was awash with them having warranty problems and Ford gave up with them in the end.Pete.
I totally agree with what you say Pete. However I can say that the sole V8 ■■■■■■■ I ran was driven exclusively by me for the length of time I ran it which was circa 3 years and in that time it never put a foot wrong ! I treated it with respect and changed the oil every 2 weeks , filter every second change. I very rarely drove it over 50 mph on the M/ways and it purred away as smooth as a sewing machine ! My first two units were 26 & 28 ton Mastiffs with Perkins V8 as they were all I could s-t-r-e-t-c-h to at that time !! Again I had a very decent Driver on the 26 tonner and I mainly drove the 28 tonner. The Perkins got the same oil changes as the ■■■■■■■ and apart from a fuel starvation problem in the early days of the 28 tonner, which we solved by incorporating an upturned “jam jar” attachment fitted in the “V” which gave the pump a constant head of fuel that was the extent of our problems. I also recall that later on there started to be a slight whiff of burnt oil from the 26 tonner but it was nowt to worry about. Both Perkins also gave faultless service but I would stress they were treated with care ! I finally got to able to purchase the Borderers and sold off the V 8’s which in way could they be classed as front line fleet motors IMHO ! Cheers Dennis.
The way you drove and serviced the motors would go a long way to how a vehicle becomes almost faultless. My dad always reckoned he could have made a V8 AEC last because he would have been careful how he drove it i’m not too sure about that one, but regular oil and filter changes have got to be a good thing.Our company very rarely do either because they can’t see further than the end of their nose. Clean filters and new oil regularily will surely
prolong an engines life and it will run at its optimum .Lack of regular servicing works the engine harder and puts the fuel consumption up. It’s false economy not to keep up wirh regular maintenance and couple that up to bad driving and you have a fleet of disasters just like we have
To reply to Dennis: I think that operating conditions made a big difference to engines back in those days as well, those like yourself on regular Motorway and A road running at more or less constant speeds was better than those being thrashed up and down Peak District etc hills when the engine temperatures changed from being very hot (often over hot) to suddenly cooling down again. I know we are going ‘off topic’ (and when has that ever happened eh? 
) but regular maintenance does play a large part as well of course. At Tilcon engine oil/filter/air and fuel filters were changed monthly and it paid dividends in the long run, however even that didn’t stop the seizing up of Gardners on numbers two or five cylinders alas. 
No bottom end problems though! Regarding operating conditions: one of our OD’s bought a used Foden six wheeler tipper from the Kings Lynn area and it was like new and gave him no problems whereas our gaffer bought an eight wheeler of similar age from Stalybridge that had been on muckshifting and it was absolutely worn out at only three years old!
Pete.
It’s interesting that Pete’s experience of performance from Foden Two-stroke drivers in his neck of the woods is at odds with the experiences of former drivers I knew. Without exception they told me that hill climbing fully loaded wasn’t the strong suit of the two-stroke. One of these drivers worked for J.W. Whewell of Radcliffe, a chemicals company, and they had a couple of Foden six-wheeler rigids with Two-stroke engines. They were hellish noisy things I remember.
gingerfold:
It’s interesting that Pete’s experience of performance from Foden Two-stroke drivers in his neck of the woods is at odds with the experiences of former drivers I knew. Without exception they told me that hill climbing fully loaded wasn’t the strong suit of the two-stroke. One of these drivers worked for J.W. Whewell of Radcliffe, a chemicals company, and they had a couple of Foden six-wheeler rigids with Two-stroke engines. They were hellish noisy things I remember.
One did mention that for pulling away on a hill loaded you needed the lowest gear in the box but as soon as the revs rose above the 2000+ mark then the power came in and you were working both gear levers like a conductor of an orchestra! You really had to keep them ‘on the boil’ but then Commers were the same according to my clubmate who drove a six wheeler Maxiload powder tank for a local firm, if it wasn’t for the two speed axle fitted they couldn’t keep the revs on their peak range. Having said that the Foden six wheeler I had with a ■■■■■■■ L10 was much the same, hopeless at low speed pulling, yet my gaffers identical vehicle with the smaller eight litre ■■■■■■■ was a better puller low down but not so good on the top end! With having four exhaust valves per cylinder I wonder if the Foden had better engine breaking than the TS3, which had virtually none of course?
Pete.
gingerfold:
It’s interesting that Pete’s experience of performance from Foden Two-stroke drivers in his neck of the woods is at odds with the experiences of former drivers I knew. Without exception they told me that hill climbing fully loaded wasn’t the strong suit of the two-stroke. One of these drivers worked for J.W. Whewell of Radcliffe, a chemicals company, and they had a couple of Foden six-wheeler rigids with Two-stroke engines. They were hellish noisy things I remember.
A 5 litre engine struggles in anything heavier than a 4 wheeler who would have thought it.It’s a bit like Bedford expecting the 6v71 to work in a 32 tonner.It’s impossible to understand the thought process of the designers and managements in the day.
ramone:
Don`t know what Punchy Dan has in his Foden but he passed my tired old DAF today like I was standing still
Hi Ramone I remember now the green walking floor crawling along I thought the red Daf in front of me was going to rear end you ! 400 ■■■■■■■ btw .
windrush:
Folk keep harping on about poor performance but I have never found a driver who thought that? Same goes for the Rootes TS3 of course, drivers loved them. Don’t forget that when it was originally being fitted into trucks the 20mph limit was still in place, later upped to 30 of course, and gross weights were much lower. Admittedly the four/five speed gearbox was inadequate when weights were increased but Fodens soon sorted that out. As weights increased then Fodens inreased the performance as well. Other makers fitted Meadows engines and even they couldn’t break into the Gardner/Leyland engine market in a big way, Dorman were the same in the lighter ranges as Perkins had that pretty much sown up and Dorman failed. I’ve often thought that if Gardner hadn’t diverted away from marine and industrial to making an engine specifically for road vehicles just what engines would makers such as ERF, Atkinson, Guy etc etc have fitted into their trucks and at least Foden’s had the foresight to produce their own power unit to compensate for the possibility of Gardners being unable to keep up owing to the demand from other makers and leave them in short supply.Remember it was the Gardner 4L2 marine engine that was fitted into a Lancia bus by Trevor Barton, so the demand was starting to appear for compression ignition engines in buses and lorries. In response Gardner designed the lighter LW engine range which was also higher revving (not a characteristic usually associated with Gardner) than an L2. Several L2 engines of 4, 5, and 6 cylinders were fitted into buses and lorries as well as LWs in the early 1930s. It’s an interesting thought about who else might have attempted to enter the road going vehicle engine market if Gardner hadn’t done so. The likely candidates would have been Ruston, who did actually make some lorry engines, Paxman, Crossley, Napier…it could be a lengthy list.
Nickolls of Folkestone ran a fleet Foden 2 stroke mixers. I used to see and hear them running through Ashford on the A28. The Tommy Babb Foden is from the same stable originally.
flickr.com/photos/8242016■■ … XXA-d1NZPA
gingerfold:
Remember it was the Gardner 4L2 marine engine that was fitted into a Lancia bus by Trevor Barton, so the demand was starting to appear for compression ignition engines in buses and lorries. In response Gardner designed the lighter LW engine range which was also higher revving (not a characteristic usually associated with Gardner) than an L2. Several L2 engines of 4, 5, and 6 cylinders were fitted into buses and lorries as well as LWs in the early 1930s. It’s an interesting thought about who else might have attempted to enter the road going vehicle engine market if Gardner hadn’t done so. The likely candidates would have been Ruston, who did actually make some lorry engines, Paxman, Crossley, Napier…it could be a lengthy list.
Yes I have seen the bus powered by a Ruston aircooled diesel but I’m guessing that it wasn’t a success? We had Crossley busses in Reading, but not many although one is still around in low loader form transporting a traction engine to rallies! Fowler also made some lorries with their own engines but again they were apparently very heavy and slow revving machines. Being a collector/exhibitor (though not this year!! ) of stationary engines I have some Ruston’s and also encounter many Fowlers, but it would seem that only Gardner in the UK were really successfull in making engines for both static and automotive use? Foden two strokes were fitted to some static applications though, I believe the one at the Anson Museum in the youtube link I posted was one such engine, as were Rootes TS3’s of course but they were marketed and rebadged as Listers.
Pete.
Punchy Dan:
ramone:
Don`t know what Punchy Dan has in his Foden but he passed my tired old DAF today like I was standing stillHi Ramone I remember now the green walking floor crawling along I thought the red Daf in front of me was going to rear end you ! 400 ■■■■■■■ btw .
I had just come up the slip road from Stourton to be fair at full weight from a standing start , trying to get across to the nearside lane for the M62 was a challenge with a ■■■■■■■■ in his VW twice trying to overtake me on the inside with a car full of kids not sure he should even be on the road , we exchanged pleasentries when he eventually past me…
windrush:
gingerfold:
Remember it was the Gardner 4L2 marine engine that was fitted into a Lancia bus by Trevor Barton, so the demand was starting to appear for compression ignition engines in buses and lorries. In response Gardner designed the lighter LW engine range which was also higher revving (not a characteristic usually associated with Gardner) than an L2. Several L2 engines of 4, 5, and 6 cylinders were fitted into buses and lorries as well as LWs in the early 1930s. It’s an interesting thought about who else might have attempted to enter the road going vehicle engine market if Gardner hadn’t done so. The likely candidates would have been Ruston, who did actually make some lorry engines, Paxman, Crossley, Napier…it could be a lengthy list.Yes I have seen the bus powered by a Ruston aircooled diesel but I’m guessing that it wasn’t a success?
Pete.
Morning Pete
The “big two” of UK engine making, Leyland and AEC, had variants of all their automotive engines for marine, rail, and stationary applications, AEC probably selling more engines in these sectors than Leyland. There were 4 cylinder versions of their engine ranges until the mid-1960s, then de-rated six cylinder engines were used instead of a four cylinder.
gingerfold:
Morning PeteThe “big two” of UK engine making, Leyland and AEC, had variants of all their automotive engines for marine, rail, and stationary applications, AEC probably selling more engines in these sectors than Leyland. There were 4 cylinder versions of their engine ranges until the mid-1960s, then de-rated six cylinder engines were used instead of a four cylinder.
Leyland engines were everywhere at one time Graham! I know we are digressing but until this month I hadn’t realised that approximately 450 AEC Routemasters were fitted with Leyland 600 engines from new instead of AEC’s own engines? I have seen Leyland powered generators around, a make of engine that I never had any dealings with (or AEC for that matter) apart from a Leyland fixed head engine fitted into a Weatherill loading shovel at Tilcons plant in Doveholes quarry which fractured an external oil pipe to the fan (it had a remote fan drive, unlike the truck application engine) and I went up to Leylands at Chorley to get a new pipe.
Pete.
windrush:
gingerfold:
Morning PeteThe “big two” of UK engine making, Leyland and AEC, had variants of all their automotive engines for marine, rail, and stationary applications, AEC probably selling more engines in these sectors than Leyland. There were 4 cylinder versions of their engine ranges until the mid-1960s, then de-rated six cylinder engines were used instead of a four cylinder.
Leyland engines were everywhere at one time Graham! I know we are digressing but until this month I hadn’t realised that approximately 450 AEC Routemasters were fitted with Leyland 600 engines from new instead of AEC’s own engines? I have seen Leyland powered generators around, a make of engine that I never had any dealings with (or AEC for that matter) apart from a Leyland fixed head engine fitted into a Weatherill loading shovel at Tilcons plant in Doveholes quarry which fractured an external oil pipe to the fan (it had a remote fan drive, unlike the truck application engine) and I went up to Leylands at Chorley to get a new pipe.
Pete.
Now that is a bit of interesting gen Pete it just shows how big a hold Leyland had on the whole group. I always thought the Routemaster was an entirely AEC/ London Transport project although am I right in saying that in later years the Scania DS11 engine was used as a transplant engine ? Cheers Dennis.
Scania D9 engine. Yes significant Leyland involvement by request from LT right from the beginning. I wouldn’t like to digress from the Foden 2 stroke theme since there is quite a lot about Routemasters on other threads: AEC, Buses Coaches and Lorries, British Leyland etc. There is an enormous amount of information on this site, look for RM RML etc:
Again digressing from the thread. When I worked at Mothers Pride bakery Chesterfield 40 years ago we had a big 4-cylinder Paxman stand-by generator, which was a WW2 engine installed when the buildings had originally been an ammunition store. It generated enough electricity to drive the travelling plate ovens, light the building etc. but it couldn’t generate enough to maintain full production output. Once a month the maintenance department were supposed to run the Paxman, but for some reason they hadn’t bothered for several months when one day our national grid supply sub-station blew up. We went to start the Paxman, which started on stored compressed air. With being stood too long the air reservoir was empty. This was charged by a small Paxman petrol engine driven compressor. That wouldn’t start either because the petrol in the tank had lost its volatility. By the time we’d sent someone to get some fresh petrol and got the big Paxman going it was too late to save the bread. 6,000 loaves of bread had to be scrapped. What a palaver it was to start it. After that it had to be tested weekly, and we did need it on a couple of occasions afterwards. It leaked more oil than any Gardner did.
Edit: It also made one hell of a racket, it didn’t have a silencer, just a straight through exhaust pipe through the side of the shed where it was housed. Impossible to talk to anyone else in the shed with you when it was running.
Thanks for that GF I will check tomorrow when ‘our’ Dorman 6LE2 was last run, I might even try to take a recording of the beast, boy it is LOUD