Okey-Didley-Dokely:
Please get a grip on reality, the EU aren’t going to make changes for any west European haulage industry when they can get road transport from east Europe at reduced rate.
But would there be anything wrong with a domestic operator, no matter how small, attempting to lobby for eastern European operators to be brought within what appears to be the law? Five minutes and a second-class stamp doesn’t seem too high a price to pay even if the chances of success are small. Why do we as a profession just never stick together? In many ways we do seem to beg to be bent over and shafted without lube.
I personally would be interested to see how VOSA interpret this legislation, and at least two other people have already stated that they would be interested in it too, which makes it a valid topic as far as I’m concerned. In hindsight it would possibly have been better to post it in the Safety & Legal forum, perhaps a mod could move it?
Okey-Didley-Dokely:
As for your venture next year, good luck, I really hope you succeed.
Okey-Didley-Dokely:
Because of the contribution to the economy that the supermarkets provide and the fact that most European hauliers are actually servicing supermarkets, it won’t make a difference to UK hauliers one iota.
Please get a grip on reality, the EU aren’t going to make changes for any west European haulage industry when they can get road transport from east Europe at reduced rate.
As for your venture next year, good luck, I really hope you succeed.
Whilst I agree that it’s very unlikely that this will change anything, especially in the UK. Your idea of the EU being run entirely by business interests is wrong. We have at least 2 factions, one is Socialist, trying to bring about more Social legislation giving workers more time off and working shorter hours. Hence WTD, RTD, Compulsory holidays, right for part-time workers, etc. The other side is supporting the big multi-nationals, so the legislation one side tries to bring in is watered down EG POA’s or even virtually ignored as much by our Country which is traditionally less willing to accept a socialist agenda than some of our European neighbours.
The piece that Harry has picked up on and has been discussed on here many times, does seem to exclude Full weekly rest from being taken in the cab, because it makes a point of stating Reduced Weekly Rest instead of Weekly Rest.
But As I said it might have been put in by some Socialist faction and then been pretty much ignored by the enforcing authorities, because as you’ve quite rightly stated it would effect the operation of haulage that the Multi-Nationals rely on.
Where a driver chooses to do this, daily rest periods and
reduced weekly rest periods away from base may be taken in a
vehicle, as long as it has suitable sleeping facilities for each
driver and the vehicle is stationary.
I would be interested to hear what VOSA do say on the matter, what I would be more interested in is how they would enforce it if they did realise so many drivers were breaking the law in a weekly basis.
Someone to ask would be caley dream as the company he works for gets some of their drivers to spend 45 hours in their truck, but saying that after the third week VDB drivers go home for a weeks rest
ROG:
From my understanding of the regs it seems that its only taking a full weekly rest in a vehicle that is the issue so taking it in a motel etc is legal
If that is the case then who is responsible for that motel cost plus food etc - the driver or the employer ?
It’s all a non-issue AFAICS (which admittedly is probably not very far…). The Regs state that a reduced weekly rest or a daily rest may be taken in a vehicle. They don’t say the driver must take them in a vehicle (nor do they say which vehicle…). They don’t say how much of said rest period can be spent in the vehicle (is it OK to nip to the shops partway through a daily rest?). Assuming they were to say normal weekly rests may not be taken in a vehicle, what is the situation where a driver starts his weekly rest at 9pm on a Friday, spends Friday night in a B&B but then gets a bus into town on Saturday morning - Is the time spent in the bus to be deducted from his weekly rest? Or does the clock have to be restarted? Does he have to stay in his own vehicle for the whole of the rest period? If he is spending said period in e.g. a B&B is he forbidden from entering his vehicle (or indeed any other vehicle) for the whole period? If he is permitted to get in the cab, for how long can he stay there? Five minutes? Five hours? At what point will he be deemed be spending his rest period in a vehicle?
Driver away from base with a tour company needs to take a full weekly rest so uses one of the tour company campervans and sleeps in that
The campervan is a vehicle so does that make it technically illegal ?
I wonder what the reasoning is behind the wording for not including a full weekly rest in a vehicle when away from base ?
Our experience in the touring industry is that questions will be asked by relevent officials if there is any difference in the end of shift/start of shift mileage readings.
E.G. We park up for a 24 or 45hr rest period, but the truck is moved, whether it be on site, or to another address, possibly in
another country. The movement would be undertaken by a relief driver.
An official will deem that unless we have proof of our whereabouts - eg. a hotel receipt, and proof of how we got from one location to another, then we were in the vehicle at the time of the movement, and have therefore contravened the regulations.
Officials consider that even sleeping in a tourbus dictates that you are still at work.
As regards travelling on a tourbus during a rest period, this is also deemed as illegal. Any travelling must be done by public transport, and will also require receipts as proof.
I’ve had personal experience of all the above situations. Fortunately i’ve always been legal, but i’ve been with other drivers who were not, and have been left several hundred Euros lighter as a result. Poland and Spain appear to be particularly hot on the matter.
I appreciate that i’ve diversed from the OP, but it at least gives an indication as to why we need some clarification.
I used to do a lot of roadshow work as an driver/manager, for example a Summer doing the UK County Show Circuit for the English and Welsh Cricket Board teaching kids to play Kwik Cricket, a three-and-a-half month tour around European capitals for Xerox when they launched a new photocopier, I drove this for three months on a UK tour promoting a new Walt Disney film.
That’s the kind of work I’m hoping to do, eventually, I used to love doing it anyway and it is the type of specialist niche work where a client will pay the right money for the right truck, and the right driver, although the driving isn’t even 5% of the job, it’s about being prepared to do anything, build up the stand, strip down and repair a generator or mop the floor. Pat Hasler has done similar work, and posted about it on TruckNet, my experience is identical to his.
The 45 hour off thing wouldn’t really make any difference to me personally doing this work because you spend a lot of time in hotels rather than sleeping in the truck, not many clients want the smell of ■■■■ around the drive axle tyre at an International Motor Show etc
But the whole question has been discussed many times on here before and really all we have had is the electronic equivalent of the Tesco RDC or the Euroshuttle train, Fifty Shades of Lorry Driver ■■■■■■■■, so I thought I would see if I could get a view from the horse’s mouth, as it were. I paid a lot of money for my Operator’s Licence and that gives me the right to make several stuffed shirts at VOSA run around at my behest.
I Myself would’nt put My head above the parapet with VOSA, its plain & simply common sense, if your stuck in a French service area & need a 45 hour break just have it, who is ever going to police it? I’ve had hundreds of weekend breaks full & reduced on ferries in truckstops etc, wtf is all the fuss about, if the dog ■■■■ east europeans want to camp in lay-bys good it will save Me smelling pickles whilst I’m eating or showering in a truckstop.
If your sick of the cab go & park near a motel & get a room, tax decutable anyway is’nt it.
I think Your being padantic over this Mr Monk, you’ve been driving overseas for years & you know how it works its road haulage ffs, now your an o’licence holder your creating hassle & aggro with VOSA they’ll be coming to see you before the years out I expect anyway, I’d have asked them then in a friendly way not put in writing for gods sake, its now logged & if for any reason you have tacho problems they start questioning you about it…
I’m not creating hassle and aggro with VOSA and I’m sure they won’t start a personal vendetta against me because I’ve asked for their opinion on a point of law.
And yes, I too have spent weekends all over the place in the truck, you don’t seem to remember this but I met you in Moscow, September/ October 1995 maybe?
And yes, I’m sure VOSA will be coming to see me, in fact I’m a bit surprised they haven’t already because I will have been trading for six months next Tuesday and I was expecting them to do a site visit after three months, that’s what everybody told me would happen.
Both myself and Neil brought this issue up several times over the last 8 or 9 years and I think were both equally surprised when it appeared in EC 561/2006 and AETR.
There is no doubt in the wording;
Where a driver chooses to do this, daily rest periods and
reduced weekly rest periods away from base may be taken in a
vehicle, as long as it has suitable sleeping facilities for each
driver and the vehicle is stationary.
or the reasoning;
Difficulties have been experienced in interpreting,
applying, enforcing and monitoring certain provisions
of Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 relating to driving time,
break and rest period rules for drivers engaged in
national and international road transport within the
Community in a uniform manner in all Member States,
because of the broad terms in which they are drafted.
Unfortunately any communication I have had with VOSA, Westminster, Department for Transport or Harewood House have always come back with the same message tagged on the end as a disclaimer.
Please take independent legal advice
I will leave it to P Fenton Cosgrove to continue this thread
Just for John Cooper. I have no problem with Harry writing to VOSA for information, after all they have a nondescript portakabin in smiley mileys garden in Portishead and do not have a clue how the rest of business works. I doubt they even know who Mr ■■■■■ is.
Unfortunately any communication I have had with VOSA, Westminster, Department for Transport or Harewood House have always come back with the same message tagged on the end as a disclaimer.
No-one at Harewood House would have a clue about anything transport related, I’m surprised you even got a reply. I believe you mean Hillcrest House unfortunately the same applies.
Unfortunately any communication I have had with VOSA, Westminster, Department for Transport or Harewood House have always come back with the same message tagged on the end as a disclaimer.
No-one at Harewood House would have a clue about anything transport related, I’m surprised you even got a reply. I believe you mean Hillcrest House unfortunately the same applies.
When we get our digi cards downloaded the software in there lists any infringements the 45hrs away from base has never flaged up so i won’t be losing any sleep about it
nedbro:
When we get our digi cards downloaded the software in there lists any infringements the 45hrs away from base has never flaged up so i won’t be losing any sleep about it
I wonder whether it has ever been factored in to any analysis software ?
nedbro:
When we get our digi cards downloaded the software in there lists any infringements the 45hrs away from base has never flaged up so i won’t be losing any sleep about it
I wonder whether it has ever been factored in to any analysis software ?
There’s no way the analysis software could know whether you stayed in the cab or not, so there’s no way you could get an infringement for it.
tachograph:
There’s no way the analysis software could know whether you stayed in the cab or not, so there’s no way you could get an infringement for it.
I’m with you Harry on this one.
By virtue of the 45hr rest omission, but inclusion of the 24hr rest in the official wording, it would lead you to think that it is
an offence to take a 45hr rest in the vehicle.
It’s certainly not being pedantic to ask the question. Those of us that spend most of our time out of the UK know how
local officials can interpret the regulations to suit.
So, do we assume it’s an oversight on the regulators behalf?
For some of us that regularly spend our 45’s away from base, it’s an important point.
