Stobarts new volvos gas power

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
121

Carryfast:

Big Jon’s dad:

Carryfast:

Big Jon’s dad:

Carryfast:
Diesel engines generate compression pressures and temperatures which petrol can’t withstand without detonating prematurely,unlike diesel fuel.

Wrong, see flashpoint versus autoignition, AGAIN!!!

Suggest you check out the compression pressures/temperatures generated in a diesel engine,at the point of compression ignition,versus those of a petrol engine at both point of ignition and/or detonation.

Where would I find this information?

Can you remind me why we put spark plugs in petrol engines?

We use spark plugs in petrol engines because they’re not diesel engines :wink: .But for the purposes of this argument it’s all to do with the difference between premature detonation and ignition and one of the reasons for using the spark is to ignite the mixture before a lot less compression than a diesel engine generates detonates it instead.

Turn the argument around if it is easier for you. Why don’t we put spark plugs in diesel engines?
I note that you avoided telling me where I might find the information you suggested I research

122

Gas selection

Chemical Formula
Name
UN Transportation Code

C3H8
Propane
CAS Number : 74-98-6
UN1978

;n-Propane; Dimethylmethane;

Laboratories & analysis
Propane is used to calibrate environmental emission monitoring, industrial hygiene monitors and trace impurity analyzers, particularly for total hydrocabons measurements (THC).
Propane could be used as a fuel in atomic absorption analyzers (AAS).
Top of the page
Gas Properties
Molecular Weight
Molecular weight : 44.096 g/mol
Solid phase
Melting point : -187.7 °C
Latent heat of fusion (1,013 bar, at triple point) : 94.98 kJ/kg
Liquid phase
Liquid density (1.013 bar at boiling point) : 582 kg/m3
Liquid/gas equivalent (1.013 bar and 15 °C (59 °F)) : 311 vol/vol
Boiling point (1.013 bar) : -42.1 °C
Latent heat of vaporization (1.013 bar at boiling point) : 425.31 kJ/kg
Vapor pressure (at 21 °C or 70 °F) : 8.7 bar
Critical point
Critical temperature : 96.6 °C
Critical pressure : 42.5 bar
Gaseous phase

123

Ignition and Combustion Characteristics of Gas-to-Liquid Fuels for Different Ambient Pressures
AbstractFull Text HTMLHi-Res PDF[2512 KB]PDF w/ Links[1130 KB]FiguresDung Ngoc Nguyen*, Hiroaki Ishida and Masahiro Shioji
Graduate School of Energy Science, Kyoto University Honmachi, Yoshida, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501, Japan
Energy Fuels, 2010, 24 (1), pp 365—374
DOI: 10.1021/ef9008532
Publication Date (Web): November 23, 2009
Copyright © 2009 American Chemical Society
*To whom correspondence should be addressed. Telephone/Fax: +81-75-753-5249. E-mail: dungnn2@elan.energy.kyoto-u.ac.jp.
AbstractGas-to-liquid (GTL) fuel exhibits potential as a clean alternative diesel fuel, suitable for addressing problems of energy security and environmental pollution. The main objective of this research was to provide fundamental data for the ignition and combustion of GTL fuels. Experiments were conducted in a constant-volume combustion vessel to investigate the effects of ambient temperature on ignition delay and combustion characteristics for various ambient pressures. Three kinds of GTL fuels with different distillation properties and their blends in gas-oil (conventional diesel fuel) were tested. The experimental results showed that all tested fuels exhibited similar ignition-delay trends: ignition delay increased as ambient temperature and ambient pressure decreased. The variation of ignition-delay values was small at temperatures higher than 700 K but large at temperatures less than 700 K. In addition, the results showed that the ignition-delay trends of GTL fuels depended significantly on distillation properties. GTL fuels with high cetane number corresponded to shorter ignition delay and smoother heat-release rate than those for gas-oil at the same temperature and pressure. Particularly, their good ignitabilities at low temperature might make it feasible to premixed-charge compression-ignition (PCCI) operations. In addition, the shadowgraph images showed that GTL fuels evaporated and mixed with the hot air quicker than gas-oil. Moreover, the blend GTL fuel helped improve ignition and combustion compared to gas-oil. The obtained results contribute to find the optimal condition of design and operation in diesel engines fuelled by GTL fuels

124

Big Jon’s dad:

Carryfast:

Big Jon’s dad:

Carryfast:

Big Jon’s dad:

Carryfast:
Diesel engines generate compression pressures and temperatures which petrol can’t withstand without detonating prematurely,unlike diesel fuel.

Wrong, see flashpoint versus autoignition, AGAIN!!!

Suggest you check out the compression pressures/temperatures generated in a diesel engine,at the point of compression ignition,versus those of a petrol engine at both point of ignition and/or detonation.

Where would I find this information?

Can you remind me why we put spark plugs in petrol engines?

We use spark plugs in petrol engines because they’re not diesel engines :wink: .But for the purposes of this argument it’s all to do with the difference between premature detonation and ignition and one of the reasons for using the spark is to ignite the mixture before a lot less compression than a diesel engine generates detonates it instead.

Turn the argument around if it is easier for you. Why don’t we put spark plugs in diesel engines?
I note that you avoided telling me where I might find the information you suggested I research

We don’t put spark plugs in diesel engines because they detonate diesel fuel using compression ignition under massive cylinder pressures and temperatures which would ignite petrol long before the spark does on a petrol engine.You can find out the relevant cylinder pressures and temperatures by contacting any car manufacturers who make both types of engines.Try Fords or Jaguar for example.

125

There carryfast how shut the ■■■■ up. Again you were yapping while I was posting read the above posts no further explanation reqiured .

126

Going back to the original post i actually work for the company that supply the LNG (LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS)UN 1972 some people on her are getting it mixed up with LPG UN 1978 the 2gases are totally differnt lng is a gas that is stored in the uk lng storage sites there are currently a number of places in the uk where we get the lng from its the same gas that you get in pipeline gas in your house for heating cooking its converted from a liquide to a gas then piped through uk gas networks its stored as lng for storage purposes more volume the same way it is stored on the stobart trucks in small lng vacume tanks the engine starts up on diesel then kicks in to a gas diesel mix 70%gas 30%diesel on on most duel trucks not sure what the new volvos are doing or how they run :exclamation: :exclamation: the duel fuel fodens are all but gone now so volvo hopefully will reopen the market again as mercedes iveco are also looking to run duel fuel trucks the biggest down fall i have seen with the duel trucks is the drivers not been botherd to fuel the trucks up with the gas as they can run on diesel alone yes they can be slighty down a bit on power but the savings can be made if run right believe me our company have saved a fortune running on it also if biogas is used the co2 saving is even better please ignore the obvious spelling mistakes :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

127

Carryfast:
I’ve not confused anything in a comparison between the detonation resistance of diesel fuel versus petrol.There’s no way that petrol can withstand the cylinder pressures and temperatures generated in a diesel engine without detonating unlike diesel fuel.Simples.

Hi Carryfast,

:open_mouth: Blimey, this is harder than pulling teeth.

I:
:bulb: Sorry Carryfast, but unless you quickly own-up to an honest mistake, (and you’ve got this one very wrong) then you’ve been rumbled.

A missed opportunity.

Yet again, you’ve introduced something that wasn’t being discussed. (Strike #2)
I didn’t comment in any way whatsoever on the subject of “detonation resistance.”

You said this:

Carryfast:
LPG needs spark ignition so it’s not compatible with diesel engined trucks or cars

It quite rightly got shot to pieces, and you’ve completely missed more than one opportunity to own-up that you’re wrong.

Then you said this:

Carryfast:
LPG and petrol both have an auto ignition temp.

Which is spot-on and correct.

Then I mentioned that if a person gets the meaning of ‘auto igniton temperature’ all mixed-up with the meaning of ‘flashpoint temperature,’ a person would start saying more completely untrue things like this:

Carryfast:
But unlike diesel that temperature is far too low so it’ll ignite too early under compression ignition when the piston is still on it’s way up the cylinder on the compression stroke.

I also noticed that you’ve very probably got the definition of ‘flashpoint temperature’ confused with the definition of ‘auto-ignition temperature’ which is a basic and very common error. What you’ve said here would be spot-on if we were talking about flashpoint, but we aren’t discussing flashpoints because they are completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. The rest of your theories are based on TWO untrue premises and therefore fall flat the first time you post them.

I then pointed out that there is absolutely no linkage between ‘flashpoint temp’ and ‘auto ignition temp.’
Then I suggested that just because a substance has a fairly low flashpoint, it DOESN’T follow that the same substance has a fairly low auto-ignition temp.

Now then Carryfast, it’s fair to say that you have your detractors and they may have a point…
I’m undecided, so please humour me a little… please clarify this:

Carryfast:
But unlike diesel that temperature is far too low so it’ll ignite too early under compression ignition when the piston is still on it’s way up the cylinder on the compression stroke.

Now, just to be sure here… we’re not discussing the price of fish, nor what colour socks the postman was wearing this morning.

128

Carryfast:
We don’t put spark plugs in diesel engines because they detonate diesel fuel using compression ignition under massive cylinder pressures and temperatures which would ignite petrol long before the spark does on a petrol engine.

You sure about that? :laughing: :smiling_imp: :wink:

As for sources, I want an online source, not a suggestion to contact someone offline. I reckon you don’t have a source annd are just spouting off.

129

Thanks Barry the prinnciple is the same but Natural gas does have a higher yield than LP which makes sence for using it as a fuel in conbined fuel applications. The debate with Carryfast is he thinks he has all the right answers when he doesnt really have a clue.

130

Brentanna:
Ignition and Combustion Characteristics of Gas-to-Liquid Fuels for Different Ambient Pressures
AbstractFull Text HTMLHi-Res PDF[2512 KB]PDF w/ Links[1130 KB]FiguresDung Ngoc Nguyen*, Hiroaki Ishida and Masahiro Shioji
Graduate School of Energy Science, Kyoto University Honmachi, Yoshida, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501, Japan
Energy Fuels, 2010, 24 (1), pp 365—374
DOI: 10.1021/ef9008532
Publication Date (Web): November 23, 2009
Copyright © 2009 American Chemical Society
*To whom correspondence should be addressed. Telephone/Fax: +81-75-753-5249. E-mail: dungnn2@elan.energy.kyoto-u.ac.jp.
AbstractGas-to-liquid (GTL) fuel exhibits potential as a clean alternative diesel fuel, suitable for addressing problems of energy security and environmental pollution. The main objective of this research was to provide fundamental data for the ignition and combustion of GTL fuels. Experiments were conducted in a constant-volume combustion vessel to investigate the effects of ambient temperature on ignition delay and combustion characteristics for various ambient pressures. Three kinds of GTL fuels with different distillation properties and their blends in gas-oil (conventional diesel fuel) were tested. The experimental results showed that all tested fuels exhibited similar ignition-delay trends: ignition delay increased as ambient temperature and ambient pressure decreased. The variation of ignition-delay values was small at temperatures higher than 700 K but large at temperatures less than 700 K. In addition, the results showed that the ignition-delay trends of GTL fuels depended significantly on distillation properties. GTL fuels with high cetane number corresponded to shorter ignition delay and smoother heat-release rate than those for gas-oil at the same temperature and pressure. Particularly, their good ignitabilities at low temperature might make it feasible to premixed-charge compression-ignition (PCCI) operations. In addition, the shadowgraph images showed that GTL fuels evaporated and mixed with the hot air quicker than gas-oil. Moreover, the blend GTL fuel helped improve ignition and combustion compared to gas-oil. The obtained results contribute to find the optimal condition of design and operation in diesel engines fuelled by GTL fuels

But using a ‘blend’ of diesel and LPG (PCCI) is’nt the same thing,or as cost efficient,as just using 100% LPG in a spark ignition engine. :question:

131

Carryfast asked for the opinion of a petroleum engineer I posted some data from one for him as well as the properties of LP. Now if he really wishes to learn something he will use the information I provided him to get all the information he needs about the topic. As far as I am concerned I have proven what I have been saying he can look into it further by purchasing the information in the post.

132

Big Jon’s dad:

Carryfast:
We don’t put spark plugs in diesel engines because they detonate diesel fuel using compression ignition under massive cylinder pressures and temperatures which would ignite petrol long before the spark does on a petrol engine.

You sure about that? :laughing: :smiling_imp: :wink:

As for sources, I want an online source, not a suggestion to contact someone offline. I reckon you don’t have a source annd are just spouting off.

Absolutely sure.If I’m spouting off then I would’nt direct you to get an opinion from those who actually make motors which use diesel and petrol and who can give you the info.But what’s the big issue about that not being an online source.

133

■■■■ you arenot blending they are in seperate tanks you are injecting them in a sequecne that allows for the combustion of the mixture using the diesel fuel like a spark plug why add a whole bunch of other components onto an engine and added weight when you dont need to.

Carryfast why do you have to be so stuborn and thickheaded.

134

Brentanna:
Thanks Barry the prinnciple is the same but Natural gas does have a higher yield than LP which makes sence for using it as a fuel in conbined fuel applications. The debate with Carryfast is he thinks he has all the right answers when he doesnt really have a clue.

ok i will keep out of this one :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

135

To CF

Care to explain where easystart (ether) fits into your theory of ignition?

136

No Barry no need to keep out, you just gave even more proof that these engines and principles are here and working, Just one person who loves to debate things he doesnt know without giving sources. I posted a very reliable source one that he asked for, now all he has to do is shut the ■■■■ up and learn something.

137

dieseldave:

Carryfast:
I’ve not confused anything in a comparison between the detonation resistance of diesel fuel versus petrol.There’s no way that petrol can withstand the cylinder pressures and temperatures generated in a diesel engine without detonating unlike diesel fuel.Simples.

Hi Carryfast,

:open_mouth: Blimey, this is harder than pulling teeth.

I:
:idea: Sorry Carryfast, but unless you quickly own-up to an honest mistake, (and you’ve got this one very wrong) then you’ve been rumbled.

Now then Carryfast, it’s fair to say that you have your detractors and they may have a point…
I’m undecided, so please humour me a little… please clarify this:

Carryfast:
But unlike diesel that temperature is far too low so it’ll ignite too early under compression ignition when the piston is still on it’s way up the cylinder on the compression stroke.

Put it another way.What do you think the ignition timing would need to be on a spark ignition/petrol engine,if it was running with Diesel engine compression ratios and cylinder pressures,to prevent premature detonation of the mixture. :question:If there’s an honest mistake there and I’ve got the issues very wrong :question: then we can start using LPG in diesel engines which would make a big difference to the bottom line of most haulage operators. :question: .Simples.

138

Carryfast:

dieseldave:

Carryfast:
I’ve not confused anything in a comparison between the detonation resistance of diesel fuel versus petrol.There’s no way that petrol can withstand the cylinder pressures and temperatures generated in a diesel engine without detonating unlike diesel fuel.Simples.

Hi Carryfast,

:open_mouth: Blimey, this is harder than pulling teeth.

I:
:idea: Sorry Carryfast, but unless you quickly own-up to an honest mistake, (and you’ve got this one very wrong) then you’ve been rumbled.

Now then Carryfast, it’s fair to say that you have your detractors and they may have a point…
I’m undecided, so please humour me a little… please clarify this:

Carryfast:
But unlike diesel that temperature is far too low so it’ll ignite too early under compression ignition when the piston is still on it’s way up the cylinder on the compression stroke.

Put it another way.What do you think the ignition timing would need to be on a spark ignition/petrol engine,if it was running with Diesel engine compression ratios and cylinder pressures,to prevent premature detonation of the mixture. :question:If there’s an honest mistake there and I’ve got the issues very wrong :question: then we can start using LPG in diesel engines which would make a big difference to the bottom line of most haulage operators. :question: .Simples.

Great idea CF. Now how will we get the LPG to ignite?

139

Big Jon’s dad:
To CF

Care to explain where easystart (ether) fits into your theory of ignition?

They don’t call it easy start for nothing.Like petrol it detonates/ignites ‘easier’ than diesel.Simples.

140

Carryfast:

Big Jon’s dad:
To CF

Care to explain where easystart (ether) fits into your theory of ignition?

They don’t call it easy start for nothing.Like petrol it detonates/ignites ‘easier’ than diesel.Simples.

Yeh but you said petrol would ignite too soon and stop the engine from going over top dead centre didn’t you?