I watched the Stobarts trucks and trailers yesterday evening and saw that their horsebox had been designed so that the driver can see and scroll through CCTV which was watching the horses in the rear
Am I right in my understanding that this is illegal ?
From a member we all respect -
The simple answer with regards to the driver being able to see the monitor screen is;
No it is not legal.
The slightly more complex answer may be found in; Regulation 109 Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986
No person shall drive or cause or permit to be driven a motor vehicle on a road if the driver is in such a position as to be able to see, directly or by reflection, a television or similar apparatus except apparatus used to display information :-
about the state of the vehicle or its location or the road location,
to assist the driver to see the road adjacent to the vehicle, or
to assist the driver to reach his destination.
My reading of that is; if the screen shows images of a horse in the trailer or rear of box then it is not legal. However, the same screen would be legal if it was displaying the output from a sat nav device or an externally mounted camera covering a ‘blindspot.’ Leave watching the horse(s) to the passenger.
Apart from the above, any incident attributable to your inattention due to watching the (illegal) screen could well see you being charged with ‘drive due care’ or ‘dangerous driving’ trust me, you really do not want to end up on the receiving end of those.
If you’re going to quote another users previous post it’s bad forum etiquette not to name them !
Regardless of what they showed on the television , those horses wouldn’t travel with just a driver, there would be at least one groom there as well, the groom would be the one who watched the CCTV !
Denis F:
If you’re going to quote another users previous post it’s bad forum etiquette not to name them !
Regardless of what they showed on the television , those horses wouldn’t travel with just a driver, there would be at least one groom there as well, the groom would be the one who watched the CCTV !
The viewscreens were angled towards the driver and the driver was shown driving and scrolling through the different views
Denis F:
If you’re going to quote another users previous post it’s bad forum etiquette not to name them !
Regardless of what they showed on the television , those horses wouldn’t travel with just a driver, there would be at least one groom there as well, the groom would be the one who watched the CCTV !
The viewscreens were angled towards the driver and the driver was shown driving and scrolling through the different views
I’m not 100% sure but I think he was on private land at Newmarket racecourse when the driver was using the scroll function.
My error - I thought I had put that link in the original post
ROG,
According to the place that you got the info from, it was posted on “09-02-12, 09:05 AM.”
WADR, it’s all very well quoting stuff, but if you’re going to do that, then how can anybody be sure that what you’ve written is accurate and up to date as at today’s date? Or in other words, how do any of us know whether that Reg has been modified or amended since then??
Quoting from Drivers’ Hours is OK, because we all know that it hasn’t been altered/modified, but isn’t it a bit of a stretch to quote from other Regs without some legal expertise?
tachograph:
I’m not 100% sure but I think he was on private land at Newmarket racecourse when the driver was using the scroll function.
dieseldave:
Remember, this is a TV programme and will have been filmed in a way that suits the producer.
Both of those are possible however, the fact remains that the screens are seen in a fixed dashboard position towards the driver
I’ve no idea whether or not the horse-box screen is legal but it seems a practical way of fulfilling a need to keep an eye on expensive live cargo so I don’t see the problem.
ROG:
I watched the Stobarts trucks and trailers yesterday evening and saw that their horsebox had been designed so that the driver can see and scroll through CCTV which was watching the horses in the rear
geebee45:
No person shall drive or cause or permit to be driven a motor vehicle on a road if the driver is in such a position as to be able to see, directly or by reflection, a television or similar apparatus except apparatus used to display information :-
about the state of the vehicle or its location or the road location,
to assist the driver to see the road adjacent to the vehicle, or
to assist the driver to reach his destination.
My reading of that is; if the screen shows images of a horse in the trailer or rear of box then it is not legal. However, the same screen would be legal if it was displaying the output from a sat nav device or an externally mounted camera covering a ‘blindspot.’ Leave watching the horse(s) to the passenger.
Could one not argue that by checking the screens you were monitoring the state of the vehicle? That is a suitably vague statement and could surely be argued to cover the inside and load as well as the outside.
There will have to be a rethink for these prototypes and living vehicles then. I have seen a few systems that do away with mirrors and use rear view cameras with monitors inside the vehicle
Being a horse owner myself, I would suggest that it is wise for the driver to have the camera to check on the horses so that he/she can stop quickly should the horses become spooked. The horses are usually held in place by a partition so cannot move around too much but they can and do still move about and you can feel the effect on the vehicle when they do.
The first time the driver was seen to be looking at the screen showing the horses on the internal CCTV was when he was on a public highway which is illegal
The screen is not illegal because Oakley horseboxes installed a multi purpose screen which can be switched between internal cameras, reversing camera and satnav - only if the driver selected the internal camera when driving would it be illegal
ROG:
The first time the driver was seen to be looking at the screen showing the horses on the internal CCTV was when he was on a public highway which is illegal
The screen is not illegal because Oakley horseboxes installed a multi purpose screen which can be switched between internal cameras, reversing camera and satnav - only if the driver selected the internal camera when driving would it be illegal
This wording allows for common sense interpretation, IMO.
I would suggest that the wording provided is designed, like so much of English legislation, to be open to reasonable interpretation: it is sufficiently ambiguous to allow a common sense application.
Firstly - and quite reasonably - it could be argued that the term "- about the state of the vehicle… " applies to viewing the interior of the vehicle. It doesn’t specify the how or what information because it doesn’t want to be inflexible or impractical.
Moreover, the catch-all phrase “to assist the driver to reach his destination” is the an exemplar in how intentionally ambiguous English legislation can be, so that common sense can be used.
I have some experience working in employment law. When one has a question about how to interpret the wording of legislation, one is always referred to case law: it is the legal tradition in England for courts to interpret the law (amendments are only introduced to help tricky interpretation or to meet new issues as necessary.)
So, would a court find it reasonable to convict someone who was using CCTV to check their load? Probably not.
Would a court find it reasonable to convict someone who was using the screen to watch a DVD? They probably would.
Until someone is convicted for using CCTV to view their load I would personally be happy to use it. If I were to be prosecuted I would feel quite confidence of a successful defence, given the wording.
I would also say that flicking between the four cameras and then selecting what sort of arrangement you want on your three screens could land you a slap on the wrist for driving without being in proper control of a vehicle - common sense.
In that case, thousands of service buses across the country must be illegal, as they have CCTV fitted in place of the traditional periscope device that lets you see the top deck!
Most modern buses have CCTV viewable by the driver at all times that cover most areas of the bus, but especially the top deck and any additional entry/exit doors.
DonutUK:
In that case, thousands of service buses across the country must be illegal, as they have CCTV fitted in place of the traditional periscope device that lets you see the top deck!
Most modern buses have CCTV viewable by the driver at all times that cover most areas of the bus, but especially the top deck and any additional entry/exit doors.
Or in other words, how do any of us know whether that Reg has been modified or amended since then??
