Buses have an exemption under the law - cctv in horseboxes do not
ROG:
Buses have an exemption under the law - cctv in horseboxes do not
Just because there isn’t a specific section of legislation saying horsebox CCTV is OK does not mean it is illegal. I still believe that the spirit of the law is there to permit sensible use of monitors.
However, perhaps the relevant government agency ought to provide clarification on this matter (official guidance is the next best thing to case law)?
Would this be a VOSA technical matter?
BarnetEngineer:
ROG:
Buses have an exemption under the law - cctv in horseboxes do notJust because there isn’t a specific section of legislation saying horsebox CCTV is OK does not mean it is illegal. I still believe that the spirit of the law is there to permit sensible use of monitors.
However, perhaps the relevant government agency ought to provide clarification on this matter (official guidance is the next best thing to case law)?
Would this be a VOSA technical matter?
If you check with VOSA you will find that they have prosecuted on this issue and given out many warnings
ROG:
If you check with VOSA you will find that they have prosecuted on this issue and given out many warnings
Saving the best until last there, Rog. 
That does swing it.
ROG:
BarnetEngineer:
ROG:
Buses have an exemption under the law - cctv in horseboxes do notJust because there isn’t a specific section of legislation saying horsebox CCTV is OK does not mean it is illegal. I still believe that the spirit of the law is there to permit sensible use of monitors.
However, perhaps the relevant government agency ought to provide clarification on this matter (official guidance is the next best thing to case law)?
Would this be a VOSA technical matter?
If you check with VOSA you will find that they have prosecuted on this issue and given out many warnings
Do you have a link to these prosecutions ?
tachograph:
Do you have a link to these prosecutions ?
Nope - as far as I know only a phone call or perhaps an email will get a direct answer
ROG:
tachograph:
Do you have a link to these prosecutions ?Nope - as far as I know only a phone call or perhaps an email will get a direct answer
BarnetEngineer:
ROG:
If you check with VOSA you will find that they have prosecuted on this issue and given out many warningsThat does swing it.
An unsubstantiated claim by ROG of a prosecution and warnings doesn’t really really swing anything.
tachograph:
ROG:
tachograph:
Do you have a link to these prosecutions ?Nope - as far as I know only a phone call or perhaps an email will get a direct answer
BarnetEngineer:
ROG:
If you check with VOSA you will find that they have prosecuted on this issue and given out many warningsThat does swing it.
An unsubstantiated claim by ROG of a prosecution and warnings doesn’t really really swing anything.
Precisely - thats why I said contact them to get definitives
I’m sure ROG is being genuine /acting in good faith when he says that VOSA have prosecuted. Obviously, it would be nice if there was a database of case law accessible to the public where we could find the details of such prosecutions.
However, I do like to get things from the horse’s mouth (no pun intended), so I took the liberty of sending an email off to VOSA.
I hope that the matter is clarified; I also hope that using CCTV to keep an eye on horses is permitted as it makes very good sense, IMO.
stevieboy308:
ROG:
The first time the driver was seen to be looking at the screen showing the horses on the internal CCTV was when he was on a public highway which is illegalThe screen is not illegal because Oakley horseboxes installed a multi purpose screen which can be switched between internal cameras, reversing camera and satnav - only if the driver selected the internal camera when driving would it be illegal
who gives a [zb]?
Because ROG is [zb] [zb] do-gooder that spends all his time looking for fault in others so he can get on his direct line to the Filth and grass them all up. 
Got an email back from VOSA: They don’t know/won’t say. 
They said this is a matter for DfT’s technical people. 
So I’ll go there.
BarnetEngineer:
Got an email back from VOSA: They don’t know/won’t say.They said this is a matter for DfT’s technical people.
So I’ll go there.
No big surprises there then, they’re not usually too keen on committing themselves are they 
Having said that I think it probably does depend to some extent on who at VOSA you ask.
tachograph:
Having said that I think it probably does depend to some extent on who at VOSA you ask.
The email was from “Emma”.
I won’t ask Emma again. 
Bl**dy hell, Rob, what do you think this is? Facebook?
Calm down, that man!
ROG is correct.
The email from DfT states:
Thank you for your email dated 17 January to our IVS enquiries inbox. I have been asked to reply.
You can install a CCTV camera in to monitor horses whilst transit but you will need to comply with C&U regulations R109. In other words the camera must not be placed so that it is possible for the driver to see any of the images either directly or by reflection. Also it must not obscure the drivers view i.e. not on dashboard etc.
You can however position the CCTV so that a passenger can see it rather than the driver so you might want to consider that as an option.
You mention “about the state of the vehicle”. Our view is that “state of the vehicle” refers to the status of systems such as lights, brakes etc rather than monitoring livestock carried by the vehicle.
The Department cannot give an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts. Enforcement of road traffic law is an operational matter for individual Chief Police Officers and their officers can issue verbal warnings, fixed penalty notices or report the motorist for formal prosecution
Thanks for the heads up ROG. I still think it is rather a shame that horseboxes aren’t permitted to use CCTV for this - perhaps one day someone will have the nerve to ask DfT for a derogation.
BarnetEngineer:
ROG is correct.The email from DfT states:
Thank you for your email dated 17 January to our IVS enquiries inbox. I have been asked to reply.
You can install a CCTV camera in to monitor horses whilst transit but you will need to comply with C&U regulations R109. In other words the camera must not be placed so that it is possible for the driver to see any of the images either directly or by reflection. Also it must not obscure the drivers view i.e. not on dashboard etc.
You can however position the CCTV so that a passenger can see it rather than the driver so you might want to consider that as an option.
You mention “about the state of the vehicle”. Our view is that “state of the vehicle” refers to the status of systems such as lights, brakes etc rather than monitoring livestock carried by the vehicle.
The Department cannot give an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts. Enforcement of road traffic law is an operational matter for individual Chief Police Officers and their officers can issue verbal warnings, fixed penalty notices or report the motorist for formal prosecution
Thanks for the heads up ROG. I still think it is rather a shame that horseboxes aren’t permitted to use CCTV for this - perhaps one day someone will have the nerve to ask DfT for a derogation.
I knew this to be the case as I had the info from a very reputable and respected source
May I copy that DfT reply onto other sites ?
there as been no answer here it a get out as usual
The Department cannot give an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts. Enforcement of road traffic law is an operational matter for individual Chief Police Officers and their officers can issue verbal warnings, fixed penalty notices or report the motorist for formal prosecution
also it you read he comment hes taking about the camera, and if you read this
Television sets
109.–(1) No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle on a road, if the driver is in such a position as to be able to see, whether directly or by reflection, a television receiving apparatus or other cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than information–
(a) about the state of the vehicle or its equipment; .
(b) about the location of the vehicle and the road on which it is located; .
(c) to assist the driver to see the road adjacent to the vehicle; or .
(d) to assist the driver to reach his destination. .
(2) In this regulation “television receiving apparatus” means any cathode ray tube carried on a vehicle and on which there can be displayed an image derived from a television broadcast, a recording or a camera or computer.
most of the screens are LCD not and there fore it would need to be update in law to include them wouldn’t
i have read his comments on State of vehicle what a load of [zb] we have bus that have monitor watching us so based on this there questionable
Buses (not sure if coaches as well) can have a derogation in regards to internal view cctv cams
BarnetEngineer:
ROG is correct.The email from DfT states:
Thank you for your email dated 17 January to our IVS enquiries inbox. I have been asked to reply.
You can install a CCTV camera in to monitor horses whilst transit but you will need to comply with C&U regulations R109. In other words the camera must not be placed so that it is possible for the driver to see any of the images either directly or by reflection. Also it must not obscure the drivers view i.e. not on dashboard etc.
You can however position the CCTV so that a passenger can see it rather than the driver so you might want to consider that as an option.
You mention “about the state of the vehicle”. Our view is that “state of the vehicle” refers to the status of systems such as lights, brakes etc rather than monitoring livestock carried by the vehicle.
The Department cannot give an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts. Enforcement of road traffic law is an operational matter for individual Chief Police Officers and their officers can issue verbal warnings, fixed penalty notices or report the motorist for formal prosecution
Thanks for the heads up ROG. I still think it is rather a shame that horseboxes aren’t permitted to use CCTV for this - perhaps one day someone will have the nerve to ask DfT for a derogation.
If this was ever tested in court lets hope the courts show more sense than the DFT, although they admit to their view not being authoritative which is something.
I’m confused by their comment of a screen to view the state of the vehicle being to monitor lights and brakes ec’t, why would you want a screen to view the lights or brakes and is there such a system
Anyway if this is ever tested in court lets hope the courts take a more realistic view than the DFT.
ROG:
Buses have an exemption under the law - cctv in horseboxes do not
I can’t find any exemption for buses, I can only find information to suggest that buses also have to comply with article 109 of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986
Do you know anything about this exemption or have a link ?
I have found some thing that mite be of interest on this and the letter from DFT there is a regulation for the welfare of animals and its called this
Council Regulation (EC) No 1/2005
The Regulation requires that:
-No one shall transport horses, or cause them to be transported, in a way likely to cause them injury or undue suffering
-Journey times are kept to a minimum
-The horses are fit to travel
-Those accompanying and handling the horses are trained and competent
-The vehicle and its loading and unloading facilities are designed, constructed and maintained to avoid injury and suffering, and to ensure safety of the horses.
-Water, feed and rest stops are available, and that sufficient floor space and height are available
-For non-export journeys, documentation is provided showing: origin and ownership of animals, place of departure and destination, date and time of departure and expected duration of journey (normally referred to as an Animal Transport Certificate).
would that not cover the question on about the state of the vehicle
You mention “about the state of the vehicle”. Our view is that “state of the vehicle” refers to the status of systems such as lights, brakes etc rather than monitoring livestock carried by the vehicle
that would imply a CCTV to monitor, would be in the interests on safety would it not 