Short term in Canada?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS EX-PAT BRITISH TRUCKERS (INTERACTIVE)
81

dave_lol66:

Big Jon’s dad:

dave_lol66:
back to my original question, explain why it sounds like a paradox!!

I thought I did but I’m not going to try again, You win, Canada should not allow any more TFWs in because they winge too much. :laughing:

mmm i wonder if thats the real reason you are in the uk■■? so you thought wrong, your explanation had nothing to do with what had been posted ffs
where in any of my postings have I even suggested Canada does not need ant tfw??

Run that past me again, slowly this time, as I’m not sure what you are on about.

Can we agree that Canada wants good quality immigrants for a start?

82

As I see it BJD,

Your method of bringing in anything with a pulse and a class 1 and then letting nature take its course has some merit, but then so does Dave’s method of only bringing in people that have the right credentials in the first place.

Dave’s way would mean that the scheme would be, almost, guaranteed success, many of the ones who don’t make it over here have failed because they had no idea of what they were letting themselves in for, the longest time they’d spent in a truck was a 15hr shift and their experience of foreign lands was limited to a fortnight in Benidorm once a year, to suddenly put these drivers and their families in a position where they were away for a week/weeks at a time obviously came as a shock to the system, add to that the fact that shipping out over a weekend was also something they had no experience of, then add the poor wages and crap conditions of the companies involved and you can see why they were doomed to fail from the start.

Some of the people that have come over that did make it did so under false pretences too, they all applied for positions as long haul drivers, yet as soon as they gained PR they quit driving OTR and got jobs on the local council/whatever, well that makes a mockery of the system, it’s not right, the reason we all got the opportunity to come over was because the country needed long haul drivers, to go through the motions until you get PR and then quit is the same as a bogus asylum seeker in my book.

However, some of the people that didn’t really have the right experience to make it as an OTR driver have done very well and continue to do well and they and their families continue to enjoy the lifestyle, they possibly wouldn’t have got in if the recruiting standards were higher, but they are in the minority.

When I applied to work at BFS my references were worthless really, I worked as a truck sales executive for Merc for the last year in the UK, before that I ran my own trucks (so basically I was my own reference and I obviously gave myself a good one!) where in that did it give any clue that I was going to be a successful OTR driver? Ok, before that I had many years continental experience, but in the last five years or so I had no references of any value, times change, as the Canadians know only too well, many drivers go OTR for a few years then as they get older they want to be home every night, I could’ve easily been one of those people and abused the system and abuse of the system is what has led to the current situation where Canada is pretty much closed to British lorry drivers.

It may well be the fault of the people that abused the system, but the companies that allowed this just so they could get a bum on a seat for a few months, then overcharge for training, get tax write offs (possibly?) etc for having immigrant workers, they’re the true guilty ones.

83

Big Jon’s dad:

dave_lol66:

Big Jon’s dad:

dave_lol66:
back to my original question, explain why it sounds like a paradox!!

I thought I did but I’m not going to try again, You win, Canada should not allow any more TFWs in because they winge too much. :laughing:

mmm i wonder if thats the real reason you are in the uk■■? so you thought wrong, your explanation had nothing to do with what had been posted ffs
where in any of my postings have I even suggested Canada does not need ant tfw??

Run that past me again, slowly this time, as I’m not sure what you are on about.

Can we agree that Canada wants good quality immigrants for a start?

We agree 100% that Canada wants and needs good quality immigrants but allowing the bad companies to weed them out is not the way to go, as said previously it is costing us all and is bad for the country. These companies need to be stopped using TFW, the country is gaining a bad reputation amongst the misinformed due to the way some companies treat the TFW.
These companies need to get their act together, they are not doing themselves, the TFW or the country any favours.

84

Ok so now we are getting somewhere.

1/ Canada needs truck drivers. (questionable, see below)

2/ Good employers don’t recruit TFWs because they can find enough local drivers willing to work for them.

3/ Crap employers recruit TFWs because locals won’t work for them.

4/ Prevent crap employers from using TFWs and you no longer have a requirement for said TFWs and the opportunity to move to Canada as a truck driver disappears.

Is the paradox becoming clearer yet?

85

Big Jon’s dad:
Ok so now we are getting somewhere.

1/ Canada needs truck drivers. (questionable, see below)

2/ Good employers don’t recruit TFWs because they can find enough local drivers willing to work for them.

3/ Crap employers recruit TFWs because locals won’t work for them.

4/ Prevent crap employers from using TFWs and you no longer have a requirement for said TFWs and the opportunity to move to Canada as a truck driver disappears.

Is the paradox becoming clearer yet?

Except that the above is total bs if you take into account the amount of frieght requiring shipping,
same amount of freight = same amount of trucks = same amount of drivers
Better recruitment policies = better drivers = better retention = better jobs = better tfw = better economy = better country
It’s a no brainer.
It doesn’t matter if the TFW is a truck driver, bin man or brain surgeon the same amount of people are still required for a stable economy.

86

mickfly:
If i am told to go for a load at 7am and it’s not ready 'till 7pm and I have to drive nonstop through the Rockies to deliver at 8am the day after… I want paying, what’s wrong with that?

OK, so what were you doing for the 12 hours? See, if you had logged off and got some rest then you would have been perfectly legal to continue over the hills that night. That isn’t just the Canadian way, that is how it goes everywhere. I had that sort of thing many times in Europe, too, and not just 12 hour delays but 3 days, and they still expected you back at the same time.

No, it isn’t perfect, but it is part of it. I wonder how you reacted at the time. Did you call them and tell them the score and ask what they would do about it or did you call and rant? I know that BFS would have, had they been handled properly, have paid me something, even if it was just a couple of hours, and I still would have had the miles anyway. I get sent across the Rockies more often than many of my peers here because I don’t mind doing it. The mountains are there, and have been for a long time, and there are places on the other side of them that require deliveries. Someone has to do it and it is a good earner. And I get good trips in return. Once I29 reopens I am off to NC…

It is a mutual respect thing. That can never be a one way street. You say that it is always the company way to not pay, but their not paying you is not necessarily indicative that they don’t pay others.

87

dave_lol66:
It doesn’t matter if the TFW is a truck driver, bin man or brain surgeon the same amount of people are still required for a stable economy.

Where do I sign up? :laughing: :laughing:

88

newmercman:

dave_lol66:
It doesn’t matter if the TFW is a truck driver, bin man or brain surgeon the same amount of people are still required for a stable economy.

Where do I sign up? :laughing: :laughing:

You done that once before but couldn’t make as much money as you do now :cry:

89

dave_lol66:

newmercman:

dave_lol66:
It doesn’t matter if the TFW is a truck driver, bin man or brain surgeon the same amount of people are still required for a stable economy.

Where do I sign up? :laughing: :laughing:

You done that once before but couldn’t make as much money as you do now :cry:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Not a lot of call for it in SE Manitoba anyway, it’s more like micro-surgery :open_mouth: :laughing:

90

bobthedog:
If i am told to go for a load at 7am and it’s not ready 'till 7pm and I have to drive nonstop through the Rockies to deliver at 8am the day after… I want paying, what’s wrong with that?
OK, so what were you doing for the 12 hours? See, if you had logged off and got some rest then you would have been perfectly legal to continue over the hills that night. That isn’t just the Canadian way, that is how it goes everywhere. I had that sort of thing many times in Europe, too, and not just 12 hour delays but 3 days, and they still expected you back at the same time

:unamused: There is no way any employer is going to send me to the customer at 7am, sit me for 12 hrs then expect me to run through the night without any extra payment, that is total bull ■■■■. It may happen on the very odd occassion but not every time you are sent to the meat plant. Bad planning and bad dispatch is what it is, that coupled with the “we dont have to pay so it dont matter” attitude stinks :imp:
I have never done it more than once without pay and never will, first time can be put down to experience but next time truck comes back and I go home to look for proper job :exclamation:

91

dave_lol66:

Big Jon’s dad:
Ok so now we are getting somewhere.

1/ Canada needs truck drivers. (questionable, see below)

2/ Good employers don’t recruit TFWs because they can find enough local drivers willing to work for them.

3/ Crap employers recruit TFWs because locals won’t work for them.

4/ Prevent crap employers from using TFWs and you no longer have a requirement for said TFWs and the opportunity to move to Canada as a truck driver disappears.

Is the paradox becoming clearer yet?

Except that the above is total bs if you take into account the amount of frieght requiring shipping,
same amount of freight = same amount of trucks = same amount of drivers
Better recruitment policies = better drivers = better retention = better jobs = better tfw = better economy = better country
It’s a no brainer.

It doesn’t matter if the TFW is a truck driver, bin man or brain surgeon the same amount of people are still required for a stable economy.

I see you still don’t get it. Let’s try again.
Who needs imported drivers? The only people that need imported drivers are the crap companies, right? Because the good companies can find enough local drivers, right?
So, you say stop the crap companies using imported drivers, fine let’s do it. Now who needs the imported drivers? No-one because the good companies never needed them and you have stopped the crap companies from using them. Result, no imported drivers, the crap companies can’t find drivers unless they change practices and if they do change they can find local drivers too. Might work.
Leave aside binmen and brain surgeons because I don’t think Canada issues LMOs for them. They may do but it still isn’t relevant.
Can you remind me which countries top the list for the most stable economies in the world and who was it that came through the last recession better than most other counties?

92

dave_lol66:

bobthedog:
If i am told to go for a load at 7am and it’s not ready 'till 7pm and I have to drive nonstop through the Rockies to deliver at 8am the day after… I want paying, what’s wrong with that?
OK, so what were you doing for the 12 hours? See, if you had logged off and got some rest then you would have been perfectly legal to continue over the hills that night. That isn’t just the Canadian way, that is how it goes everywhere. I had that sort of thing many times in Europe, too, and not just 12 hour delays but 3 days, and they still expected you back at the same time

:unamused: There is no way any employer is going to send me to the customer at 7am, sit me for 12 hrs then expect me to run through the night without any extra payment, that is total bull [zb]. It may happen on the very odd occassion but not every time you are sent to the meat plant. Bad planning and bad dispatch is what it is, that coupled with the “we dont have to pay so it dont matter” attitude stinks :imp:
I have never done it more than once without pay and never will, first time can be put down to experience but next time truck comes back and I go home to look for proper job :exclamation:

I hope it happens to me first then, I don’t want to be behind you in the queue for a new job :laughing:

93

Big Jon’s dad:

dave_lol66:

Big Jon’s dad:
Ok so now we are getting somewhere.

1/ Canada needs truck drivers. (questionable, see below)

2/ Good employers don’t recruit TFWs because they can find enough local drivers willing to work for them.

3/ Crap employers recruit TFWs because locals won’t work for them.

4/ Prevent crap employers from using TFWs and you no longer have a requirement for said TFWs and the opportunity to move to Canada as a truck driver disappears.

Is the paradox becoming clearer yet?

Except that the above is total bs if you take into account the amount of frieght requiring shipping,
same amount of freight = same amount of trucks = same amount of drivers
Better recruitment policies = better drivers = better retention = better jobs = better tfw = better economy = better country
It’s a no brainer.

It doesn’t matter if the TFW is a truck driver, bin man or brain surgeon the same amount of people are still required for a stable economy.

I see you still don’t get it. Let’s try again.
Who needs imported drivers? The only people that need imported drivers are the crap companies, right? Because the good companies can find enough local drivers, right?
So, you say stop the crap companies using imported drivers, fine let’s do it. Now who needs the imported drivers? No-one because the good companies never needed them and you have stopped the crap companies from using them. Result, no imported drivers, the crap companies can’t find drivers unless they change practices and if they do change they can find local drivers too. Might work.
Leave aside binmen and brain surgeons because I don’t think Canada issues LMOs for them. They may do but it still isn’t relevant.
Can you remind me which countries top the list for the most stable economies in the world and who was it that came through the last recession better than most other counties?

What I do understand is that you really struggle to grasp the idea that if the crap companies dont exist then the crap companies improve or better companies come along to take their place because the same number of trucks and drivers are still required. My point about bin men and brain surgeons was used to try and help you but obviously had no effect, the same number of workers are still required no matter what the industry so it would have no effect on immigration only the jobs and industry requiring TFW so its a win win situation.

94

newmercman:
As I see it BJD,

Your method of bringing in anything with a pulse and a class 1 and then letting nature take its course has some merit, but then so does Dave’s method of only bringing in people that have the right credentials in the first place.

Dave’s way would mean that the scheme would be, almost, guaranteed success, many of the ones who don’t make it over here have failed because they had no idea of what they were letting themselves in for, the longest time they’d spent in a truck was a 15hr shift and their experience of foreign lands was limited to a fortnight in Benidorm once a year, to suddenly put these drivers and their families in a position where they were away for a week/weeks at a time obviously came as a shock to the system, add to that the fact that shipping out over a weekend was also something they had no experience of, then add the poor wages and crap conditions of the companies involved and you can see why they were doomed to fail from the start.

Some of the people that have come over that did make it did so under false pretences too, they all applied for positions as long haul drivers, yet as soon as they gained PR they quit driving OTR and got jobs on the local council/whatever, well that makes a mockery of the system, it’s not right, the reason we all got the opportunity to come over was because the country needed long haul drivers, to go through the motions until you get PR and then quit is the same as a bogus asylum seeker in my book.

However, some of the people that didn’t really have the right experience to make it as an OTR driver have done very well and continue to do well and they and their families continue to enjoy the lifestyle, they possibly wouldn’t have got in if the recruiting standards were higher, but they are in the minority.

When I applied to work at BFS my references were worthless really, I worked as a truck sales executive for Merc for the last year in the UK, before that I ran my own trucks (so basically I was my own reference and I obviously gave myself a good one!) where in that did it give any clue that I was going to be a successful OTR driver? Ok, before that I had many years continental experience, but in the last five years or so I had no references of any value, times change, as the Canadians know only too well, many drivers go OTR for a few years then as they get older they want to be home every night, I could’ve easily been one of those people and abused the system and abuse of the system is what has led to the current situation where Canada is pretty much closed to British lorry drivers.

It may well be the fault of the people that abused the system, but the companies that allowed this just so they could get a bum on a seat for a few months, then overcharge for training, get tax write offs (possibly?) etc for having immigrant workers, they’re the true guilty ones.

I don’t disagree with any of the above, in fact I’m just arguing for the sake of it. It really makes no difference to me and it doesn’t affect my kids jobs out there except that they may earn more if there is a shortage of drivers. I’m a UK taxpayer so it doesn’t even come out of my taxes if TFWs cost Canada money. I don’t like to see people whineing and wingeing though. They should “■■■■ it up” to borrow an expression from Mick.

95

mmmm, well i must of came over on false pretences ,i drove otr for 2yrs 6months with a company that i still class as ok by canadian standards.we received pr at the 24mnth(would have been earlier as we held back after tearing my hamstring at work)…now driving for concrete company 500yrds from home…
we came over on a twp , i payed own flights, licence myself ,yes i know they should have paid flights etc .
but i cost the company nothing ,made them a lot of money by taking a multi drop run out(and multi drop home) nobody wanted and made it my own ,lol…i still get friends from that company phoning up looking for drops /tel no.much to my wifes annoyance …

was it my plan to leave otr after getting pr ,im still not sure but if i had been offered more money ,100% medical and home every night when in the uk i would have taken it …soooooo?.
btw ,this is not intended to start an argument but as i found after 26yrs on the road ,whenever have 2 drivers agreed about anything!!
they would argue over the price of a free cup of coffee!!
jimmy.

96

dave_lol66:
What I do understand is that you really struggle to grasp the idea that if the crap companies dont exist then the crap companies improve or better companies come along to take their place because the same number of trucks and drivers are still required. My point about bin men and brain surgeons was used to try and help you but obviously had no effect, the same number of workers are still required no matter what the industry so it would have no effect on immigration only the jobs and industry requiring TFW so its a win win situation.

I understand perfectly that a certain number of drivers is needed regardless of where they come from. If we suddenly made all truck driver’s employers treat their employees well do you think there would still be a need to import truck drivers or would enough local drivers be available to fill all the trucks, remembering that overall conditions would have improved?

97

newmercman:
many of the ones who don’t make it over here have failed because they had no idea of what they were letting themselves in for, the longest time they’d spent in a truck was a 15hr shift and their experience of foreign lands was limited to a fortnight in Benidorm once a year, to suddenly put these drivers and their families in a position where they were away for a week/weeks at a time obviously came as a shock to the system, add to that the fact that shipping out over a weekend was also something they had no experience of, then add the poor wages and crap conditions of the companies involved and you can see why they were doomed to fail from the start.

There is certainly some truth in that statement, but in my case, I made it clear I was happy to stay out all the time (we were living in the truck), weekends have never made any difference to me, and I didn’t expect extra money for working through a Sat or Sun, and certainly wasn’t interested in getting back somewhere to prop a bar up all weekend.

98

bobthedog:

mickfly:
If i am told to go for a load at 7am and it’s not ready 'till 7pm and I have to drive nonstop through the Rockies to deliver at 8am the day after… I want paying, what’s wrong with that?

OK, so what were you doing for the 12 hours? See, if you had logged off and got some rest then you would have been perfectly legal to continue over the hills that night.

What was I doing? I was going into the office nearly every hour, all day long and being told… “the city driver has just gone to get the trailer, the trailer is being loaded right now, the trailer is missing, it’ll be half an hour, it’ll be 10 mins, it’ll be an hour and a half, the trailer had 2 flats so the city driver has taken it to get repaired etc etc,” then at 5pm when I went in, the dispatcher had gone home and I had to wait for someone else to sort it out!.

I didn’t rant, I complained and asked to be given another dispatch, but was told…you should not have accepted the pre plan, the job is still yours.

Yes I could have logged off and rested, and I obviously didn’t start my log till 7pm, so I was able in that instance to run over to Vancouver, nakered, but legal (on paper).

I fiddled my logs most days whilst I worked there.

There is a new comment on the H&R blog today from someone called Chris… another useless bloody moaning Brit eh?
" Hi guys,
I hadn’t seen this site before (I wish I had) and I have just returned to the UK with my tail between my legs thanks to H&R.
I would like to do something to warn other drivers before they bankrupt themselves and raise awareness about the differences in what Lyndon says and the facts, so the more the merrier if you have a story or want to be involved then email me arnoldsdog@hotmail.co.uk
thanks Chris"

99

Big Jon’s dad:

dave_lol66:
What I do understand is that you really struggle to grasp the idea that if the crap companies dont exist then the crap companies improve or better companies come along to take their place because the same number of trucks and drivers are still required. My point about bin men and brain surgeons was used to try and help you but obviously had no effect, the same number of workers are still required no matter what the industry so it would have no effect on immigration only the jobs and industry requiring TFW so its a win win situation.

I understand perfectly that a certain number of drivers is needed regardless of where they come from. If we suddenly made all truck driver’s employers treat their employees well do you think there would still be a need to import truck drivers or would enough local drivers be available to fill all the trucks, remembering that overall conditions would have improved?

And the problem with that is?

100

dave_lol66:

Big Jon’s dad:

dave_lol66:
What I do understand is that you really struggle to grasp the idea that if the crap companies dont exist then the crap companies improve or better companies come along to take their place because the same number of trucks and drivers are still required. My point about bin men and brain surgeons was used to try and help you but obviously had no effect, the same number of workers are still required no matter what the industry so it would have no effect on immigration only the jobs and industry requiring TFW so its a win win situation.

I understand perfectly that a certain number of drivers is needed regardless of where they come from. If we suddenly made all truck driver’s employers treat their employees well do you think there would still be a need to import truck drivers or would enough local drivers be available to fill all the trucks, remembering that overall conditions would have improved?

And the problem with that is?

Nothing at all from the perspective of someone already in Canada. Prospective immigrants may not like it much.

P S (this thread is up to 4 pages now, the longest we have had here for ages. How many pages will we get to, I wonder.) :sunglasses: