One with a 4 cylinder Gardner licenced engine.
Saviem for city deliveries from the 60 th, engine was 4 cylinders 100 HP.
gb1:
A slightly more modern Saviem - also sold as a Berliet.4
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Evening all,gb1, you have the most eclectic collection of brochures, and real bits of history!
When we were “wed” to dear old Berliet, our Government owners did not really have a real idea of what to do with the new company. Their “advisors”, (the marketing men from the Regie Renault, Saviem, and Berliet), proposed a strategy that the marques remained as totally seperate Brands.
So far so good…but what when the model mix became more homoginised…Saviem cabs and engines, sold by Berliet Dealers,…or Berliets, (heavy tractors), sold by Saviem Dealers…Simples!! Badge them as …the marque sold by that respective Dealer!!!
What an unmitigated disaster…and gb1s Serie H, (Saviem), or Serie TB (Berliet) brochure shows the ultimate mess. Let alone in heavy tractors, the PX Saviem, (a V8 Berliet), and the TB Berliet, ( a Serie H Saviem)
Just before sanity prevailed, (1978 ), and everything became branded as Renault, over £ 100,000 .00 was spent developing a Berliet type grille for the SerieJ, and H, on the insistance of the Venissieux Marketing Department.
It was a badly managed marriage, I know, as I was right in the middle of it, a Saviem man in marketing, in Venissieux, the power house of Berliet. And it got personal, and it got nasty , and it got very, very silly!!! NEVER think that the ■■■■ up in the UK with Leyland and AEC was that awfull…believe me the fun in France was even worse!!!
Quite driven me to solace in the Bollinger…a bientot mes braves, Cheerio for now.
I, and i’m sure many others, do enjoy you’re depth of knowledge Saviem.
Maybe there’s some consolation in discovering that it was’nt only the Brits that could get it wrong!
gb1:
I, and i’m sure many others, do enjoy you’re depth of knowledge Saviem.
Maybe there’s some consolation in discovering that it was’nt only the Brits that could get it wrong!
Interesting point, this. Renault are still trading, so they did not get it completely wrong. It remains to be seen whether Renault simply deteriorates into a screwdriver operation for Volvo. The French version of the new FH will give some indication. Will it differ considerably from the Volvo version? Will Renault be allowed to improve the cab, to create a true successor to the TR300 and Magnum, or will they be held back , so that it is no better than the FH?
Maybe Renault’s falling into a position in which they were susceptible to a takeover, in the first place, could be viewed as a failure in itself. Was that state of affairs precipitated by the merger of Saviem and Berliet being done in a cack-handed manner?
Over to you, Monsieur Saviem.
Evening all, thanks for your kind words gb1. Anorak, simple answer to the question you pose, yes.
By the 70s, the European, and particularly French truck markets were stagnant. Nil growth. Thats why Britain was “invaded” by every mainland lorry manufacturer, and his brother! The UK market, mid 60s, into the 70s, was the only growth market with potential, and there were virtually no barriers either in trade tariff, or enforced (protectionist) legislation. Unlike those enforced by most mainland European Governments.
Our own manufacturers had produced vehicles to our (peculiar) national legislation, in terms of dimension and gross weights. And were incapable due to lack of component supply, or manufacturing capacity to meet the markets demands.
So when products arrived, with instant availability, built to a more demanding set of criteria than our own, and at very, (in many cases subsidied), prices, well it was natural that operators grabbed them with both hands.
Frances once multi manufacturer lorry producers had shrunk to just three major producers. Unic, rapidly becoming a "badge engineered susidiary of Fiat (Iveco). Saviem, the Government controlled, (via the Regie Renault) "Rescue vehicle", for Somua, Latil, Floriat, and Renaults own commercial vehicle arm, light and nimble on its feet, (as any "new" company, freed from corporate debt), with new ranges of product, and a strong and profitable collaboration with another European manufacturer, (MAN). The other, monolithic Berliet, vertically integrated, a major source of Export income, with eleven overseas manufacturing plants, including China. Burdened with debt, and grossly over facilitised in terms of potential manufacturing volume. Now owned by Michelin, via its Citroen subsidiary. And Michelin wanted out, both of cars, and lorries, and quickly, for cash was running away from the corporate body.
Potential suitors,…Fiat, of course , but the real front runner, Volvo. The two Swedish manufacturers Volvo and Scania, together had the manufacturing potential capacity to satisfy over 80% of the total European volume, 15tonnes/40tonnes, and they were both strong in financial terms. Scania, always an outward looking company, had established manufacturing facilities in Brazil and Holland. But it was the audatious Mr Volvo who went knocking on M Citroens door.
Had Sweden declared war on France, the effect could not have been more dramatic. From the Elysee Palace down, the panic buttons were pressed. France`s Government could simply not allow the major French lorry manufacturer, (and in industrial terms, a very major French employer), to fall into foreign hands. And particularly foreign hands that would rationalise, and “cherry pick” the products to serve its own ends.
So by using the Regie Renault, as the holding company France nationalised two major lorry manufacturers, to protect jobs, to protect the export earnings, to preserve their “French” identity…who knows? But what was certain it saddled the French Taxpayer with trillions of FF debt, over many years, and its manufacturing base with a lingering, bloody, and painful restructuring.
The senior management of Renault Vehicules Industriels was never free from political interfearance. Their decision making was constantly eroded by political constraints. Restructuring of manufacturing facilities was simply not allowed, yet this was vital to the conglomerates future.
Then of course was the hopeless aimless strategies, (or lack of them), to integrate the overseas, British, and Spanish PSA Group manufacturing facilities into RVI. Goodbye Dodge, and Barrereios.
There was no clear strategy on product, on dealer networks, on image. Both manufacturers total sales volumes on integration was around 70% of the total French market. Within 5years it had fallen to just over 50%. And when the Regie got a real “lorry man” to head up RVI, he, (Francoise Zanotti), by his clear thinking, and deliberate strategies, so frightened the politicians that they got rid of him. The mess that was made over Dealer Networks intigration, resulted in “gifting” DAF some very active outlets, and thus establishing DAF firmly in the French market.
Yet good things did happen, gb1s Serie H, was the first real RVI product, and it was the start of a successful line. The project Virage, resulting in the Magnum, Zanotti`s quest for the US market, and the establishment of the Serie J as the Mack MS series, and the integration of Mack into RVI.
Yes, to quote Anorak, it was the “cack handed” integration of the two manufacturers that eventually led to the French Taxpayers “financial fatigue”, and RVI and Volvo coming together. (and it would take a rather gifted forensic accountant to truly uncover the basis of this"integration or is it a true merger)!!
But go back to the start, …really it was truly a totally non viable situation, unless massive "cutting " had taken place, and no domestic politician could commit suicide so easily. And unlike our own politicians the French did not allow the take over of their manufacturer, …let alone bleed it dry, and then give it away!!!
Gentlemen, my apologies if I have been long winded in this answer, truly I have tried to be brief, but it is a rather involved subject, but one on which little is written, and so parallels the fate of our own National manufacturer. ( I was going to write a little, (briefly), about the way we endeavoured to show the Serie H, to France`s hauliers, and how they drove, this evening. But blame this discourse on dear Anorak, and his questions)!
I shall away to refresh myself with a copious Bollinger, (this Barn is both cold, and with this wind becoming wet)!
Cheerio for now.
Thank you Saviem for a truely interesting overview of the development of truck manufacture in another European market.
Who controls Renault Trucks now? The Premium and it’s sucess in all the European markets must have caused a real change in their fortunes of late.
Is Dentressangle owned or financed by the French Government? The great debate between drivers! But something has, without doubt, changed at least in their purchasing policy. When Mons. Dressingtable began his incredible expansion from local haulier in Lyon to European Superstar everthing they ran was French - Renault and Samro trailers - leading to the French Government rumour - but now you can see Mercedes and Daf on the fleet. Is this significant?
Best regards, David
Merci Beaucoup, Monsieur Saviem, for taking the time to inform this wonderful forum on the trials and tribulations of the French vehicle industry. I’ve said it before, but: 1. You don’t get this sort of stuff in the books and magazines. 2. The books of the future will be better for the existence of forums like this.
Comparing the integration of Saviem and Berliet to the other great mergers of the last century, the stand-out mistake appears to have been the badge engineering and its consequences- offering each manufacturer’s products as an equal alternative to the other’s customers. Tooling up a Berliet grille for the Saviem HB26 effectively undermined both marques’ strengths, as did putting a Saviem grille on the TR, to create the PX30. DAF made a better job of it with Leyland- they allowed the two ranges to scrap it out in the market (albeit with both makers’ names on the front, in GB at least), with the result that the weaker products died a natural death and the stronger ones got the benefit of the shared dealer network- DAF won with the heavies, Leyland products became the merged company’s choice for the lighter end of the market. I would guess that, if the French had followed a similar path, they would have ended up with the HB and TR as distinct products, with their own identities, competing in the same weight ranges but each finding their “best” customers.
David Miller:
Thank you Saviem for a truely interesting overview of the development of truck manufacture in another European market.Who controls Renault Trucks now? The Premium and it’s sucess in all the European markets must have caused a real change in their fortunes of late.
Is Dentressangle owned or financed by the French Government? The great debate between drivers! But something has, without doubt, changed at least in their purchasing policy. When Mons. Dressingtable began his incredible expansion from local haulier in Lyon to European Superstar everthing they ran was French - Renault and Samro trailers - leading to the French Government rumour - but now you can see Mercedes and Daf on the fleet. Is this significant?
Best regards, David
This raises another point- is the Premium as successful as it seems? French and Italian lorries have always been considered “cheaper” alternatives to the Swedes, DAF and Mercedes, at least according to popular opinion. If their retail prices are indeed lower, that means less profit for the manufacturer, unless the vehicles are truly more cheaply built, by the same margin. I would guess that this is unlikely- did a TR280 contain less “good stuff” than an F88 or LB110? Considering, as an example, Saviem and Berliet’s early (1974 or thereabouts) efforts to market their products in Britain, the merged company was already at a disadvantage- the others had already spent the previous 5-10 years building up their dealer networks, reputations and their ability to charge a good price for the vehicles. It seems that the French manufacturers’ attempts to market their products across Europe, from the 1960s onwards, were a shadow of those of the German, Dutch and Swedish makes. I suggest that this left Renault with a more difficult task in subsequent years, and that their having to sell their products cheaply is the root of their eventual vulnerability, which led to the Volvo takeover. The botched merger was simply the icing on the cake.
The beginning of the Saviem : Latil,Renault,Somua joined their ranges.
Evening all, …a bit of "lightweight comment…
Back in May 1978, from Savifrance Rennes, we had a “caravan” roadshow, moving across their area to show operators the benefits of the new PS30, 38tonne tractor, and the Serie H range, both as 15/19tonne rigids and lightweight 35tonne tractor. All were fully freighted to gross, the PS30s with tandem boxes, and the little (20tonne) H`s with single axle Savoyards. The rigids with tilt bodies, or boxes. Oh as an add on , there was a TP (bonneted) 4x2, 232hp, tipper, with a two axle (proper) drawbar tipping trailer, forming a really well balanced outfit.
We started at Rennes, ending up four days later at St Lo, having done 90 PS 30 demos, 65 HMs, and 40 TPs. Now the HMs with the new 8litre Berliet engine, 6, or 12speed boxes, and sleeper “Club of Four cabs”, were really nice smooth drivers. The PS30s, all, except one with the Saviem GV350, 10speed synchro box, the exception being one with the St Nazaire built Fuller 13 speed. Funny, French drivers prefered the synchro box, …me…well I loved the Fuller…(B …cowboy)! But what an incredible, responsive, comfortable powerful tractor unit.
But my real love, the TP, with her drawbar tipper trailer. She rode like a stately carriage at 35tonnes, the ride was superb, power was adequate, and the GV680 splitter box a delight. But to reverse, an absolute dream, light steering, good lock, great mirrors, (and is there not something really satisfying about a "proper " drawbar). I chose to drive her as much as possible, and had my leg pulled without mercy by my colleagues, for driving a “road workers truck”, the Traveaux Publics, TP.
Areally great way to spend a perfect French spring!!
Cheerio for now.
David Miller:
Thank you Saviem for a truely interesting overview of the development of truck manufacture in another European market.Is Dentressangle owned or financed by the French Government? The great debate between drivers! But something has, without doubt, changed at least in their purchasing policy. When Mons. Dressingtable began his incredible expansion from local haulier in Lyon to European Superstar everthing they ran was French - Renault and Samro trailers - leading to the French Government rumour - but now you can see Mercedes and Daf on the fleet. Is this significant?
Best regards, David
Hello David, well I will try to partially answer your question!! And I have to respect that Norbert himself is both a very private, and discreet person.
No, Norbert`s success is down to only Norbert!!
Yes his father ran a modest operation in St Vallier, but Norbert was away at his studies, (and without doubt, the French education system encouraged, and created self starting entrepreneurs…contrast that with the abysmal education system in the UK, where “competition” is really discouraged, and the true potential of so many never realised).
Norbert returned, …took the modest business base, developed it, and went forward.
Perhaps the first “breakthrough” was to get “our” fleet side to realise the potential that Norbert presented. Then using the vehicle of the new leasing side to assemble a package, G Range porteurs, et Samro remorques, over a three year contract with (quite optomistic residual values) AND BANG WHIZZO, Norberts operation had a cost advantage over his competitors of something akin to 20%.
When they came back…(and I was long gone from la belle)!..they were all disposed of! And another BIG batch was already on the road, and that formula has continued ever since!!
The context that Norbert began operation within was totally unlike the market that you , David,and I knew. The French Hauliers had operated within a “cosy” enviroment of Governmental fixed rates…and you could make a living from them. But you had "enormous " fleets, where in the UK the same traffic could be handled by 30% of the French fleet strength. For me, personally , when I was first working in France it was a major learning curve…artics that remained permanently coupled!!! I ask you!!
But Norbert used the UK model, and drove a coach and horses through the market!!
Norbert admired Sir James Duncans TDG, and particularly his perseverence with the French market, Sir James also realised the potential presented by the French market, but his succesors did not and now, see, Norbert now owns the bulk of that business!!!
Now Norberts business is truly Global, Europe, Asia, South America. And it keeps on expanding in what, in European terms is a “mature”, (no more income growth potential ) market.
Equipment, (and drivers and staff), can come from anywhere! And manufacturers will beat a path to his door to just get his name onto their product, so great is the marketing Kudos!!! This is a Global Conglomorate, and even now Norbert himself drives it forward, and I am proud to have both Norbert and Marie Therase as family friends.
Cheerio for now.
Thank you, Saviem. for that clear picture of Norbert Dentrssangle as both a Company and the man. I had always hoped that the case was of a man who was taking the market head-on but the rumours of Government involvement has always been so strong here. I suppose that it is natural to assign some kind of unfair advantage to a competitor who has just kicked your a**e!
Thanks again and best regards,
David
