Rtd (wtd) & annual leave

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
61

delboytwo:
these are the penalties Rog

7.4 Penalties
VOSA’s aim is to educate employers and employees about their entitlement and
responsibilities under the Regulations. Much of this will take place on an informal basis.
However, if formal action is required VOSA will use:

  • improvement notices - to notify the employer of a likely breach of the Regulations and to set
    out the changes that need to be made in a given timescale; and
  • prohibition notices - requiring the employer to stop a dangerous activity, or to start complying
    with the Regulations.
    The Courts have a system of fines and custodial sentences that can be applied to anyone who
    persistently contravenes the Regulations.
    For example:
  • failure to comply with any of the relevant requirements of the Regulations could lead to fine of
    up to £5,000 (the current maximum) in a Magistrates Court; or a fine at the Judge’s discretion
    in a Crown Court;
  • contravention of an improvement or prohibition notice served under the Regulations could
    lead to imprisonment for up to three months or a fine of up to £5,000 (the current maximum)
    in a Magistrates Court; or imprisonment for up to two years and/or a fine at the Judge’s
    discretion in a Crown Court.

So incorrectly accounting for holidays would most likely attract the bit in blue as the penalty. Blimey this is significant then. :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

62

ROG:
OK. I’m getting bored and I wondered, for no apparent reason, what the answer to this was :slight_smile:

A driver on days does 4 on and then 2 off
Each shift is 12 hours
2 hours of that are break/POA
1 hour is other work
9 hours driving

Now we get to the questons :wink:

  1. If the driver takes 4 consecutive days off on annual leave is that counted as a full week (48 hours) for the RTD (WTD) :question:

If yes -
2) Is taking (1) tue, wed ,thu & fri off the same as taking (2) sat, sun. mon & tue as (2) spans two seperate fixed weeks :question:

  1. Yes as long as long as no other work that come in scope of the WTD for mobile workers is done during the fixed week and as long as the leave is statutory holiday or sick leave, maternity/paternity leave ec’t.

  2. No, well not as far as booking the 48 hours for the WTD is concerned, Saturday Sunday Monday & Tuesday should be booked at 8 hours per day.

If you don’t work between 00:00 Monday to 24:00 Sunday because of statutory holidays sickness maternity/paternity whatever then you book 48 hours, if you work at any time between 00:00 Monday to 24:00 Sunday then you book 8 hours per day for any days holiday ec’t that you’ve taken during that fixed week.

63

tachograph:
If you don’t work between 00:00 Monday to 24:00 Sunday because of statutory holidays sickness maternity/paternity whatever then you book 48 hours, if you work at any time between 00:00 Monday to 24:00 Sunday then you book 8 hours per day for any days holiday ec’t that you’ve taken during that fixed week.

Thank you tachograph - I’ve been trying to tell delboytwo that for a couple of days.

64

ROG:
A driver on days does 4 on and then 2 off
Each shift is 12 hours
2 hours of that are break/POA
1 hour is other work
9 hours driving

I’m curious, where does the “1 hour is other work” and “9 hours driving” enter into the equation :confused: :smiley:

65

tachograph:

ROG:
OK. I’m getting bored and I wondered, for no apparent reason, what the answer to this was :slight_smile:

A driver on days does 4 on and then 2 off
Each shift is 12 hours
2 hours of that are break/POA
1 hour is other work
9 hours driving

Now we get to the questons :wink:

  1. If the driver takes 4 consecutive days off on annual leave is that counted as a full week (48 hours) for the RTD (WTD) :question:

If yes -
2) Is taking (1) tue, wed ,thu & fri off the same as taking (2) sat, sun. mon & tue as (2) spans two seperate fixed weeks :question:

  1. Yes as long as long as no other work that come in scope of the WTD for mobile workers is done during the fixed week and as long as the leave is statutory holiday or sick leave, maternity/paternity leave ec’t.

  2. No, well not as far as booking the 48 hours for the WTD is concerned, Saturday Sunday Monday & Tuesday should be booked at 8 hours per day.

If you don’t work between 00:00 Monday to 24:00 Sunday because of statutory holidays sickness maternity/paternity whatever then you book 48 hours, if you work at any time between 00:00 Monday to 24:00 Sunday then you book 8 hours per day for any days holiday ec’t that you’ve taken during that fixed week.

hi tachograph

the worker in ROG post is only taking 4 days leave and as the worker take his leave on a Tues and because he is working a 4 on and 2 off shift is new week would start Tues as Mon is one of is days off and as the quote

Note: You should only input 48 hours for one week of leave] that starts / finishes 00.00 on Monday morning. Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday) should be worked out on a daily basis).

and as the worker would work on the following Monday you would only input days

this is the post Rog used as the example

Sun & mon off
Tue, wed, thu & fri annual leave
Sat & sun off

and if you look at it you will see that his holiday starts Tues and as he would be back at work on Monday that is not 7 consecutive days of leave is only 6 days

because Rog as used the shift of 4 on 2 of its got a 6 week cycle and the example Rog uses is the 6 week of the cycle

i know it being hammered to death, but Rog does not seam to think the worker in his post works 5 days in a week of 7 days (2 week would be 4 day s) and that would give the worker an average of a 5 day week

and he is all so counting the workers days off as holiday for WTD IE Mon is his normal day off and so is sat and Sunday if the worker did not got to work on Monday then yes he would have have a week off and there for book a 48 WTD week but he only had 4 days off

days of are not counted as part of the 28 days holiday you would get for working a 5 day week average

66

ROG:

delboytwo:
if this post was a or is a wind up at my expense

:open_mouth: :open_mouth: I would never do such a thing on a serious subject to anyone :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

To coffeeholic - fair enough :slight_smile: but can you suggest anyone who can give the definitive answer :question:

sorry ROG just noticed this :blush:

the reason i said that is because of your smiles and some time posters use those for wind ups when there have had enough or get bored with the comments that some say IE me :frowning:

67

What is the definition of a week for the WTD ?
DfT RTD

2.5 What is a week?
The working week must start at 00.00 hours on Monday morning, and finish at 23.59 hours on Sunday.

Once you get that definition Which is writen in the regs then you have a basis for the answer.

A full week (see definition) of annual leave is counted as 48 hours for the WTD

If there is so much as one day worked during that week (see definition) then it is not a full week of annual leave

There is no definition stated for the number of days taken in that week (see definition) - it is either a full annual leave week or it is not

…unless you can find any regulations or definitions that state otherwise…

68

ROG:
What is the definition of a week for the WTD ?
DfT RTD

2.5 What is a week?
The working week must start at 00.00 hours on Monday morning, and finish at 23.59 hours on Sunday.

Once you get that definition Which is writen in the regs then you have a basis for the answer.

A full week (see definition) of annual leave is counted as 48 hours for the WTD

If there is so much as one day worked during that week (see definition) then it is not a full week of annual leave

There is no definition stated for the number of days taken in that week (see definition) - it is either a full annual leave week or it is not

…unless you can find any regulations or definitions that state otherwise…

Rog thank you

you have just proved my answer for me in the above quote

The working week must start at 00.00 hours on Monday morning, and finish at 23.59 hours on Sunday

Note: You should only input 48 hours for one week of leave that starts / finishes 00.00 on Monday morning. Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday) should be worked out on a daily basis).

in your example the working week for that week for the worker starts Tues

in the regs Rog there have put a start day on Mon 0.00 for the week and an end day for the week sun 23.59

it you normally start you working week on a Monday and did have 4 days of how may day would you book for that week 4 x8 hours WTD

so your saying cos the worker was not working Monday, on Saturday or Sunday there part of your holidays days off have zero hours

the additional 0.8 weeks statutory annual leave provided by regulation 13 A of the 1998 Regulations, then zero hours working time would have to be recorded;

so put this to you you have a normal worker who works Monday to Friday and as 4 day leave booked and when he books then its going to be a bank holiday on Monday and as the regs state you book zero hours for bank holidays and he does not come back to work till Monday

base what you are saying the worker would book a week and 48 hours for WTD

but in fact the working week for that worker would start Tues cos bank holidays are zero hours and there for 4 days would be booked 8x4=32 for working time

look at it this way you get a job and you contract say the your working week is from wed to Tues every week with two days of in that working week so that make it a 5 day week

so does the the working week start on

The working week must start at 00.00 hours on Monday morning, and finish at 23.59 hours on Sunday.

no it did not its start wednesday

Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday) should be worked out on a daily basis

69

you have just shot yourself yet again :exclamation: :exclamation:

It is what is done WITHIN that fixed week that matters - nothing else.

Each fixed week is taken on it’s own exept when working out the averages

70

ROG:
you have just shot yourself yet again :exclamation: :exclamation:

It is what is done WITHIN that fixed week that matters - nothing else.

Each fixed week is taken on it’s own exept when working out the averages

show me it says fixed week it does not say fixed week

when you can not find it the read your quote

think of this

does the holday start mon in your example

The working week must start at 00.00 hours on Monday morning, and finish at 23.59 hours on Sunday.

71

Rog i have found something

as we know the leave starts tues and if you read this bit

2.2 What is working time?

The Regulations define working time as the time from the beginning of work, during which the mobile worker is at the workstation

was monday the beginning of work no it was a rota day off tues was it first day at work but he took leave

72

Lets go to the beginning with a question so that we have a starting point from which we can agree and then take it from there -

What is defined as a week :question:

As an aside - would your logic still make sense if the driver NEVER worked a Monday - if the drivers normal working week was Tuesday to Saturday inclusive :question:

73

ROG:
Lets go to the beginning with a question so that we have a starting point from which we can agree and then take it from there -

What is defined as a week :question:

No grey area as it is clearly defined in the The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005

“week” means a period of seven days beginning at midnight between Sunday and Monday

I’ve just read the regulations and this couldn’t be clearer so this is another thread which has gone to several pages over a simple thing. :unamused: :unamused: This wasn’t helped by the fact this,

If the driver takes 4 consecutive days off on annual leave is that counted as a full week (48 hours) for the RTD (WTD)

If yes -
Is taking (1) tue, wed ,thu & fri off the same as taking (2) sat, sun. mon & tue as (2) spans two seperate fixed weeks

couldn’t be answered definitively as there isn’t enough information provided. There is no information as to what was done on the other days of the week(s) and that is the key to the whole thing.

This is the only other bit you need to readin the regulations as far as this debate goes

The number of hours in a whole day shall be eight and the number of hours in a whole week** shall be forty-eight.

**Note the words whole week, that’s the key thing.

If you do no work between 00:00 Monday and 24:00 Sunday, taking any days you would have been working as annual leave, then that week gets booked as 48 hours. Doesn’t matter if you normally work Mondays or not. Doesn’t matter if you work some Mondays and some are days off due to your rota. Doesn’t matter if you normally work Monday - Friday or Tuesday - Saturday. Doesn’t matter of you work 4 on 2 off. Doesn’t matter if you hadn’t been on leave you would have started work on Tuesday, Wednesday or when ever in that week. None of that is relevant.

Only two things matter.

  1. Are the days annual leave?
  2. Do you do any work between Monday and Sunday?

If you answer yes to point 1 then it’s simply checking point 2 to see what your situation is. If you don’t work at all in the week it’s 48 hours, if you do it’s 8 hours for each day.

Three pages of debate on such a simple thing that could be answered by just reading the regulations, it gets worse on this forum :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

I’m blaming you ROG, you’ve moved up my list. :imp: :smiling_imp: :imp: :smiling_imp: I’ve now learned more about the WTD than I ever wanted, or needed, to know. :imp: :smiling_imp: :imp: :smiling_imp: Lets get back to discussing the proper regulations, not the ones that everyone else in Europe is sensible enough to ignore and aren’t being enforced anyway. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

74

Coffeeholic:
Three pages of debate on such a simple thing that could be answered by just reading the regulations, it gets worse on this forum :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

I’m blaming you ROG, you’ve moved up my list. :imp: :smiling_imp: :imp: :smiling_imp: I’ve now learned more about the WTD than I ever wanted, or needed, to know. :imp: :smiling_imp: :imp: :smiling_imp: Lets get back to discussing the proper regulations, not the ones that everyone else in Europe is sensible enough to ignore and aren’t being enforced anyway. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

PMSL :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

But surely you can’t really believe that this will be the end of it :wink: :laughing:
Bet it makes at least 4 possibly 5 pages

75

Coffeeholic:
I’m blaming you ROG

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

When I started this I was just curious as to what would be a whole week or what would be single days in a circumstance that is common and not the ‘normal’ Mon to Fri so I chose 4 on and 2 off but it could have been 4 on 4 off or whatever.

I wondered what the criteria was for calculating this and whether a driver could be ‘canny’ so as to reduce the overall average.

Coffeeholic:
No grey area as it is clearly defined in the The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005

“week” means a period of seven days beginning at midnight between Sunday and Monday

This is the only other bit you need to readin the regulations as far as this debate goes

The number of hours in a whole day shall be eight and the number of hours in a whole week** shall be forty-eight.

**Note the words whole week, that’s the key thing.

If you do no work between 00:00 Monday and 24:00 Sunday, taking any days you would have been working as annual leave, then that week gets booked as 48 hours. Doesn’t matter if you normally work Mondays or not. Doesn’t matter if you work some Mondays and some are days off due to your rota. Doesn’t matter if you normally work Monday - Friday or Tuesday - Saturday. Doesn’t matter of you work 4 on 2 off. Doesn’t matter if you hadn’t been on leave you would have started work on Tuesday, Wednesday or when ever in that week. None of that is relevant.

Only two things matter.

  1. Are the days annual leave?
  2. Do you do any work between Monday and Sunday?

If you answer yes to point 1 then it’s simply checking point 2 to see what your situation is. If you don’t work at all in the week it’s 48 hours, if you do it’s 8 hours for each day.

Thanks to coffeeholic & tachograph :smiley: I now know the answer is that they can and, although the WTD penalties are not likely to be severe for those that do not follow them but for those that are trying to adhere to them and doing such a shift pattern(s) then this may be useful.

As the difference can be 16 hours towards the RTD (WTD) each time and that might amount to 48 hours within each average reference period which is one whole weeks worth.

I could do two 17 week reference periods showing how to be ‘canny’ and saving that amount but I won’t unless some one really wants me to… :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

tachograph:
But surely you can’t really believe that this will be the end of it :wink: :laughing:

That’s it for me - thanks guys

76

fine then its a week

so if you are a worker and you work Monday to Sunday and do no more work between that week you have to book 48 hours

put in that context

worker asks boss for 2 weeks of and would like to take is holiday during the Easter brake and as we know the Two B/holidays are for working time booked as zero hours and there for the worker would only needs 8 days
4 days for each week off is 20 holidays entitlement but as you say you would book 48 hours so you would be out off pocket on the working hours by 16 at the end of your 17 week reference period

for the example the work always has B/H off and are not booked for WTD

week one

mon off leave
tues off leave
wed off leave
thurs off leave
friday is good friday zero hours for WTD
sat normal day off
sun normal day off

you would book 48 hours for working time and would have to have a credit of 8 hours for the B/H

2.5 What is a week?
The working week must start at 00.00 hours on Monday morning, and finish at 23.59 hours on Sunday.

and as the working week started monday you would be Right Rog
week two

Monday B/Holiday zero hours for WTD
Tues off leave
wed off leave
Thurs off leave
Friday off leave
sat normal day off
sun normal day off

you would only book 4 days as you working week for that week starts Tues

2.5 What is a week?
The working week must start at 00.00 hours

on Monday morning

, and finish at 23.59 hours on Sunday.

if you would be at work your week would start on Tues cos B/H are not part of a working week

Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday) should be worked out on a daily basis).

and as the worker starts is working week on Tues it would be counted at days

i know a week starts monday and finishes Monday never said it did not but

you leave as to start Monday and you have to be off on leave till Mon

77

tachograph:
Bet it makes at least 4 possibly 5 pages

I don’t think you will be wrong. Del still has several pages of quotes from different regulations to post yet I suspect. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

78

ROG:

Coffeeholic:
I’m blaming you ROG

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

When I started this I was just curious as to what would be a whole week or

No, no, no, no. Stop, no ‘or’ :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

Q. I was just curious as to what would be a whole week

A. ““week” means a period of seven days beginning at midnight between Sunday and Monday” and “The number of hours in a whole day shall be eight and the number of hours in a whole week** shall be forty-eight.”

That was as far as you needed to read to answer your curiosity. Simples.

ROG:
Thanks to coffeeholic & tachograph :smiley: I now know the answer is that they can and, although the WTD penalties are not likely to be severe for those that do not follow them but for those that are trying to adhere to them and doing such a shift pattern(s) then this may be useful.

As the difference can be 16 hours towards the RTD (WTD) each time and that might amount to 48 hours within each average reference period which is one whole weeks worth.

I think the majority of people who are bothering with the WTD don’t want to work many hours anyway so having to book 48 instead of 40 or 32 will be an advantage to them. Tose who aren’t bothering with it are those who don’t want their hours restricting and realise that the limits are a wast of time anyway as it is so easy to work round them.

ROG:
I could do two 17 week reference periods showing how to be ‘canny’ and saving that amount but I won’t unless some one really wants me to…

Please don’t, seriously please, please don’t. Just go back to misreading and not understanding the tacho rules, you are upsetting the TN Karma with all this WTD nonsense. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

79

delboytwo:

2.5 What is a week?
The working week must start at 00.00 hours

on Monday morning

, and finish at 23.59 hours on Sunday.

if you would be at work your week would start on Tues cos B/H are not part of a working week

Do you not see what you are doing wrong there? In one breath you are correctly saying the working week always starts at 00:00 Monday and in the next you are ignoring that and claiming the week can start on a Tuesday. The week starts at 00:00 Monday regardless of when someone actually turns up at work, and regardless of whether the Monday is a Public Holiday or not.

delboytwo:

Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday) should be worked out on a daily basis).

and as the worker starts is working week on Tues it would be counted at days

No, that is not the reason. That is counted as days because it straddles two weeks and in both of the weeks other days are actually worked.

delboytwo:
i know a week starts monday and finishes Monday never said it did not but

But you do keep ignoring that and saying sometimes it starts on a Tuesday, which it doesn’t.

delboytwo:
you leave as to start Monday and you have to be off on leave till Mon

No your leave can start on any day, that really isn’t important, what day your leave actually starts has no bearing on this. What is important is whether you actually do any work in the week or not.

80

delboytwo:
you leave as to start Monday and you have to be off on leave till Mon

Without wishing to get into a discussion on the meaning of the word “leave” I’d say the leave does start Monday Del, if fact I’d say the leave starts when you finish work on Friday.

Monday to Sunday is 7 consecutive days leave and 4 days holiday :wink:

The regulation/guide clearly states 7 consecutive days, but you can’t legally have 7 consecutive days on statutory holiday as an HGV driver as we can only work 6 consecutive days maximum, so the “leave” has to be interpreted as the time away from work and not just the 4 days holiday :wink:

Note: You should only input 48 hours for one week of leave that starts / finishes 00.00 on Monday morning. Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday) should be worked out on a daily basis).