ROG:
I’ve had enough fun now so I will await a GURU for the definitive answer - I’m sure one will be along soon…
so you don’t believe me then well that says a lot 
I have done the shift Rog and had the hoildays it the time i work for a large company that knows the regs on working time and tacho regs.
as the 20+ post I posted
ask you this in you example
ROG
Sun & mon off
Tue, wed, thu & fri annual leave
Sat & sun off
did the leave start on Mon or Tues and did he book a week
Note: You should only input 48 hours for one week of leave that starts / finishes 00.00 on
Monday morning. Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday)
should be worked out on a daily basis).
in the red bit as you can see it says starts
the A/L of 4 days in your O/P started on Tues and as when the worker come back to work it would be Monday and cos he works Monday he would of only had 4 days leave and put it as days
is Tuesday to Mon a new 7 consecutive day i think so
Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday)
i think you are considering the fact that the worker is of on Monday and does not go back to work till Monday, Monday is one of is rotated days off and as days off are not counted as holiday for WTD
that why IMO you are not getting what have been trying to get across.
the A/L of 4 days in your O/P started on Tues and as when the worker come back to work it would be Monday and cos he works Monday he would of only had 4 days leave and put it as days
Please show me where it says that a week of annual leave MUST be 5 days 
When you can show me that, then I will err towards your take on it
ROG:
the A/L of 4 days in your O/P started on Tues and as when the worker come back to work it would be Monday and cos he works Monday he would of only had 4 days leave and put it as days
Please show me where it says that a week of annual leave MUST be 5 days
When you can show me that, then I will err towards your take on it
co its your O/P that i base it, on but in fact a full week would based on the regs be counted as 7 consecutive days
in your O/P the worker is on a rotated shift of 4 on 2 off
in a 52 week year the worker would do 8.66 rota s of 6 weeks
in the 6 week rota the worker works 28 days
28x8.66=242.48 days worked
gives an average of 4.66 days holiday per week and as working time is an average there for make the average weeks holiday for that worker 5 days
i see you did not comment on the example you used
ROG
Sun & mon off
Tue, wed, thu & fri annual leave
Sat & sun off
the worker would be back at work on Mon did the work have 7 consecutive days off, no the worker did not
Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday)
should be worked out on a daily basis
in you post the leave of 4 days started on Tuesday as it started on Tuesday you have to count it as day not weeks read the quote
delboytwo:
i see you did not comment on the example you used
ROG
Sun & mon off
Tue, wed, thu & fri annual leave
Sat & sun off
delboytwo:
the worker would be back at work on Mon did the work have 7 consecutive days off, no the worker did not
Err… mon tue wed thu fri sat sun - that makes 7 consecutive days within the fixed week by my calculation… 
Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday)
should be worked out on a daily basis
You have this fixed idea that all anual leave MUST start on a monday and there is no rule that says it must - what if someone always worked tue wed thu fri sat does that mean that their annual leave never comes in scope 
Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday)
should be worked out on a daily basis
This for when the annual leave spans over two fixed weeks so each part of each week is taken as seperate days and not one full week as the leave is split at monday 0000/sunday 2400/sunday midnight (they are all the same time just put differently 
)
delboytwo:
in you post the leave of 4 days started on Tuesday as it started on Tuesday you have to count it as day not weeks read the quote
Same question as before -
Please show me where it says that a week of annual leave MUST be 5 days
I’ll bet the GURUs have PMd each other not to answer on this thread yet as they are having one heck of a giggle about it 
you have got it wrong i am baseing may posts on you example
delboytwo:
the worker would be back at work on Mon did the work have 7 consecutive days off, no the worker did not
Err… mon tue wed thu fri sat sun - that makes 7 consecutive days within the fixed week by my calculation…
the guy had 4 days leave he book 4 days leave in your example would you agree to that
if you are thing that for WTD that Mon is part of is holiday but it is not the worker took Tues off wed off Thur off Fri off and as the holiday start on a Tues and the worker did-on the following Monday he did not have 7 days off
You have this fixed idea that all anual leave MUST start on a monday and there is no rule that says it must - what if someone always worked tue wed thu fri sat does that mean that their annual leave never comes in scope
OK were do i say it must stat Mon
Note: You should only input 48 hours for one week of leave that starts / finishes 00.00 on
Monday morning. Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday)
should be worked out on a daily basis).
in the above quote and basing it on to post example did the worker on a shift of 4 on 2 off start is holiday on Mon or Tues
and is leave starts Tues so he input days
i am saying if you book a holiday and the holiday starts Monday and you do no work an more for 7 consecutive days that would be a week under WTD
and as you post say his holiday starts tues and as the qoute say cos his holiday stars mid week take it as days
under working time a person that works 5 days a week would be entitled to 20 days leave plus B/holl
if your worker input it as a full week for that 4 day and for argument’s sake he does that all the time during the year he would be booking 5 weeks holiday for working time and puting an extra 48 hours on his time
ROG:
I’ll bet the GURUs have PMd each other not to answer on this thread yet as they are having one heck of a giggle about it
yes probably right, but i think it mite be you that’s done that as it my seam that i am part of your amusement 
if this post was a or is a wind up at my expense and i have not let the penny drop yet cos in my thinking if someone post in a forum that is asking a question and the question as to be answered right in my eyes should be here, if however the post is a wind up which seam to be happening and me being the but of it should be in bully’s and not in here, and i would not be going on at you trying to get something through to you that you don’t’ seam to grasp
just to add the regs for leave are below
Annual leave
When using a fixed reference period to calculate average weekly working time “notional” working time figures must be recorded when any of the four weeks statutory leave provided by regulation 13 of the 1998 Regulations is taken. This is to ensure that such leave is ‘neutral’ for the purpose of calculating weekly working time. These notional figures are 48 hours per week and 8 hours per day.
However, “notional” figures do not have to be recorded for the statutory annual leave provided by regulation 13A of the 1998 Regulations or for any additional contractual leave entitlements provided in excess of the statutory minimum (see section 2.4 for further information).
So the amount of working time that must be recorded when a mobile worker takes a day’s leave depends on the type of leave being taken: if a mobile worker were to take a day’s leave that was part of:
- the 4 weeks statutory annual leave provided by regulation 13 of the 1998 Regulations, then 8 hours working time would have to be recorded;
- the additional 0.8 weeks statutory annual leave provided by regulation 13 A of the 1998 Regulations, then zero hours working time would have to be recorded;
- additional contractual leave in excess of the 4.8 weeks statutory annual leave entitlement, then zero hours working time would need to be recorded.
The Regulations do not state how a ½ day’s statutory annual leave provided by regulation 13 of the 1998 Regulations should be recorded. The Department would consider it reasonable that in these situations a “notional” figure of 4 hours for the ½ days leave be recorded plus the actual amount of working time for that day.
Sick leave, maternity, paternity, adoption or parental leave
The “notional” figures also have to be included for any period of sick leave, maternity, paternity, adoption or parental leave taken by the mobile worker.
So if someone takes 1 week off on leave and takes 2 days additional days leave, all of which are part of the 4 weeks annual leave provide by regulation 13 of the 1998 Regulations, over a 17 week reference period, then you add a notional 48 hours + 16 hours to bring the total working time up to the equivalent of 17 weeks. The total working time is then divided by 17 to find the average.
Example 2:During a 26 week reference period a driver works 35 hours for 13 weeks and 60 hours for 10 weeks + 1 day (for 9 hours). The remaining period, (2 weeks 5 days) is taken as part of the 4 weeks annual leave provided by regulation 13 of the 1998 Regulations leave during this period.
The total hours worked in the reference period is:
(35 x 13) + (60 x 10) + (1x9) = 1064 hours worked in 23 weeks + 1 day
Add 2 x 48 hours for the 2 weeks leave and add 8 hours per day to bring the time worked up to 26 weeks.
2 weeks x 48 = 96
5 (days) x 8 = 40
1064 + 96 + 40 = 1200
Therefore the average (total hours divided by number of weeks) is: 1200 / 26 = 46 hours
The 48 hour average and the 60 hour cap have been complied with.
Note: You should only input 48 hours for one week of leave that starts / finishes 00.00 on Monday morning. Any other period of 7 consecutive days (e.g. Wednesday to Tuesday) should be worked out on a daily basis).
ROG:
I’ll bet the GURUs have PMd each other not to answer on this thread yet as they are having one heck of a giggle about it
I haven’t PM’d anyone about this thread, or answered on it, for several reasons.
-
First time I saw it was when I got in from work this afternoon and got your PM pointing me to it, which linked directly to this post on the thread incidentally.
-
I don’t know much about the WTD.
-
I care even less about the WTD.
-
If I am on holiday the last thing I will be worrying about or caring about will be how many hours I need to account for for the WTD, 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48 it really doesn’t matter.
-
I don’t worry about it when I’m working so will not be worrying about it on holiday. I just stick to the tacho rules and let the WTD take care of itself.
delboytwo:
if this post was a or is a wind up at my expense
I would never do such a thing on a serious subject to anyone
To coffeeholic - fair enough but can you suggest anyone who can give the definitive answer
ROG:
delboytwo:
if this post was a or is a wind up at my expense
To coffeeholic - fair enough
Like I said I’m not that interested in the WTD so don’t know anyone who ‘specialises’ in answering stuff about it.
Edit. I just read Delboy’s last post and that seems to answer everything about holidays and the WTD, or at least enough information to keep you nearly right, especially given that most people don’t worry about the WTD and you’re only talking about a difference of a few hours depending whether you record it as 48 hours or 8 hours a day.
I made the difference between 48 and 32 as 16 hours which could be significant in some cases.
ROG:
I made the difference between 48 and 32 as 16 hours which could be significant in some cases.
Hardly significant when those 16 hours over any of the reference periods isn’t going to increase the weekly average by an hour - just over 56 minutes for a 17 week reference period and just under 37 minutes for a 26 week period for example. Really not worth worrying about, especially considering it is in regard to regulations you aren’t going to be prosecuted over. If you recorded it as 48 when it should have been 32, or vice versa, worst you will get will be advice on how to correctly record it.
I feel that it could be significant if 3 weeks of annual leave were considered as that could be a difference of 48 hours worth - or one average weeks worth
ROG:
I feel that it could be significant if 3 weeks of annual leave were considered as that could be a difference of 48 hours worth - or one average weeks worth
And what’s the worst that can happen?
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
I feel that it could be significant if 3 weeks of annual leave were considered as that could be a difference of 48 hours worth - or one average weeks worthAnd what’s the worst that can happen?
To be honest - not a clue…
ROG:
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
I feel that it could be significant if 3 weeks of annual leave were considered as that could be a difference of 48 hours worth - or one average weeks worthAnd what’s the worst that can happen?
To be honest - not a clue…
So really not worth worrying about then.
It’s not like transgressions of the tacho rules where money and your licence, or in extreme cases your liberty, is at stake.
Are there any set penalties for breaches of the RTD (WTD)
ROG:
Are there any set penalties for breaches of the RTD (WTD)
Not set penalties but maximum fines etc which would mainly be aimed at employers. As a driver you would have to be consistently abusing the regulations to attract attention. If you were not complying with the WTD, with all the leeway built into it due to POA and breaks, to that extent then your tacho records would be way out of line and that would be where you came unstuck.
As I said before, stick to the tacho rules and you will be as near as dammit in line with the WTD anyway, close enough that it shouldn’t be a problem.
these are the penalties Rog
7.4 Penalties
VOSA’s aim is to educate employers and employees about their entitlement and
responsibilities under the Regulations. Much of this will take place on an informal basis.
However, if formal action is required VOSA will use:
- improvement notices - to notify the employer of a likely breach of the Regulations and to set
out the changes that need to be made in a given timescale; and- prohibition notices - requiring the employer to stop a dangerous activity, or to start complying
with the Regulations.
The Courts have a system of fines and custodial sentences that can be applied to anyone who
persistently contravenes the Regulations.
For example:- failure to comply with any of the relevant requirements of the Regulations could lead to fine of
up to £5,000 (the current maximum) in a Magistrates Court; or a fine at the Judge’s discretion
in a Crown Court;- contravention of an improvement or prohibition notice served under the Regulations could
lead to imprisonment for up to three months or a fine of up to £5,000 (the current maximum)
in a Magistrates Court; or imprisonment for up to two years and/or a fine at the Judge’s
discretion in a Crown Court.