Spardo:
Bullying would be what Rog suggested, taking up 2 lanes without indication.
No I did not suggest that - I said that if a driver was good at forward observation and planning then they should take the room needed on the approach and maintain that amount of room on the roundabout therefore another vehicle could not get into the same space and there would be no conflict
See the roundabout - aseess that a lane and a half will be needed on it for the size of the vehicle - position to a lane and a half on the approach - maintain that lane and a half on the roundabout - safely sorted without confusing signals needed - they may be needed to set up the position on the approach though.
That is precisely what Big D described as bullying:
to stop another vehicle passing is bullying and not acceptable - you should never use the size of your vehicle to intimidate other road users
What is confusing about a right turn signal which should prevent a following vehicle from overtaking you? The logic here beggars belief - that’s what indicators are for.
In any case you can’t be sure on the approach to an unfamiliar roundabout how much room you will have or need.
Spardo:
Bullying would be what Rog suggested, taking up 2 lanes without indication.
No I did not suggest that - I said that if a driver was good at forward observation and planning then they should take the room needed on the approach and maintain that amount of room on the roundabout therefore another vehicle could not get into the same space and there would be no conflict
See the roundabout - aseess that a lane and a half will be needed on it for the size of the vehicle - position to a lane and a half on the approach - maintain that lane and a half on the roundabout - safely sorted without confusing signals needed - they may be needed to set up the position on the approach though.
That is precisely what Big D described as bullying:
to stop another vehicle passing is bullying and not acceptable - you should never use the size of your vehicle to intimidate other road users
What is confusing about a right turn signal which should prevent a following vehicle from overtaking you? The logic here beggars belief - that’s what indicators are for.
There is a MAJOR difference between ‘bullying’ and ‘preventing’ and as I described before, the safely taking up of the space needed before entering the hazard is not bullying - bullying is FORCING others out of the way and I agree with Big D - that is unacceptable.
In any case you can’t be sure on the approach to an unfamiliar roundabout how much room you will have or need
.
By good forward vision and planning - that is what LGV trainers SHOULD be teaching during training.
The ONLY time during training that a trainee has got a roundabout wrong is when they rushed at it with no planning or thinking.
Absolutely Rog - so the answer is simple no signal on approach and signal to leave - doesn’t matter about 12 o’clock or 2 o’cklock or any o’clock
The answer is simple.
If it is a third exit then its a right and you DO signal right and approach in the right lane as I stated earlier. Yoiu then signal left to leave the roundabout when you draw level with the exit before the one you are taking.
i dont know why this thread has gone on so long on such a straighforward simple manouvre.
The term bullying is used because if you threaten to move right and have no intention of doing so it is done for the sole purpose of stopping passing traffic.
With thought and correct approach speed you should always know how much room you will need at a strange roundabout.
Absolutely Rog - so the answer is simple no signal on approach and signal to leave - doesn’t matter about 12 o’clock or 2 o’cklock or any o’clock
The answer is simple.
If it is a third exit then its a right and you DO signal right and approach in the right lane as I stated earlier. Yoiu then signal left to leave the roundabout when you draw level with the exit before the one you are taking.
i dont know why this thread has gone on so long on such a straighforward simple manouvre.
If the examiner calls it right then thats what it is that day however he could call it ahead 3rd exit and you would have to signal according to his instruction.
OK, as I said before, you blokes are teaching people to pass a test, not even just that, to satisfy a particular examiner on a particular day and as John pointed out in the first post in this thread you sometimes get it wrong.
I prefer to drive safely by letting other road users know what I am going to do.
I don’t have to pander to what some Whitehall official decides his minions in the real world should become hidebound by.
Despite Mothertrucker saying the answer is simple - it isn’t. Spardo is nearly right, in that we teach trainees to negotiate a roundabout to satisfy what the examiners want.
There are at least 2 roundabouts in Peterborough for example where the road ahead is the third exit and it is deffo not a right turn in the collective opinion of the examiners, who were asked to give their opinion on how a trainee was expected to negotiate them.
It is up to instructors to have this local knowledge and impart it to their trainees. Of course the examiners believe that you don’t need local knowledge to pass your test - not so in my opinion.
As to bullying by commanding the road/splitting the lanes. Many lane markings particularly on the approach to a roundabout are not wide enough to accommodate a truck, let alone allow for tail swing and it is therefore imperative that lanes are split in some instances. This is not bullying as the trainee is not forcing other road users to move out of the way, merely using the road that is available to him at the time. If the road is being used by another vehicle the trainee should wait until it comes available, otherwise that would be bullying.
If the way that this was required for the DSA differed from general safe road driving then I would not teach it and would be putting in a very big complaint via my MP to the DfT. - I’m looking at this from an advanced driver point of view and NOT the DSA view - to me, SAFE DRIVING COMES FIRST
If other drivers wish to use ‘other methods’ then, providing they are SAFE & do not impede or confuse other road users, fine
Here’s a thought…
What would happen if, as you pass the 1st exit with your r/h indicator on, a car approaches the rab from the 2nd exit, looking to (also) take the 3rd exit.
What would that car driver assume were your intentions ? You’ve still to pass the 2nd exit remember so you’ve still got r/h indicator on ! You’d also probably be tight to the centre to give yourself room to cut in left yeh ?
He’s looking to make progress so he’s going to go, just as you turn in.
What about if the rab was completly clear - no traffic.
Indicators are for indicating to other road users your intentions. You shouldn’t be “putting it in a box”. Every situation is different !
Jab:
Here’s a thought…
What would happen if, as you pass the 1st exit with your r/h indicator on, a car approaches the rab from the 2nd exit, looking to (also) take the 3rd exit.
What would that car driver assume were your intentions ? You’ve still to pass the 2nd exit remember so you’ve still got r/h indicator on ! You’d also probably be tight to the centre to give yourself room to cut in left yeh ?
He’s looking to make progress so he’s going to go, just as you turn in.
What about if the rab was completly clear - no traffic.
- thats the usual safe way of say, turning right at a roundabout
If the car driver was to see a right signal then that means that the vehicle is going across their intended path, so they MUST give way - the exit of that vehicle could be going to the next exit or any number after that
Any vehicle that deliberately commits up the nearside of another on a roundabout has to be taking one hell of a risk as they have no idea when or where that vehicle might exit
Jab:
Indicators are for indicating to other road users your intentions. You shouldn’t be “putting it in a box”. Every situation is different !
thats the usual safe way of say, turning right at a roundabout
but you’re going straight ahead…aren’t you ? If there was 2 lanes on the RAB, and you are indicating right, a car might assume you are going past that 3rd exit & join on the nearside lane. I’m just saying you shouldn’t give a signal if it’'s confusing basically. Use your own observation and signal accordingly.
Thanks Rog. Exactly - If in fig3 you had a car coming from major road B and he saw you with r/h indicator on as you were passing minor Rd A, (as positioned where you have the “second” artic, he might assume you were taking the last exit minor D. And he ends up on your inside as you turn in.
Which is why I wouldn’t give a r/h indicator.
Anyway…it was a good question.
I’m tired of this now, we are getting nowhere, however one final observation.
Rog’s 1st roundabout diagram is labelled ‘Lanes Wide Enough For Artic’ but plainly isn’t. The artic entering needs to encroach on the adjacent lane in order to get his trailer clear of the nearside kerb.
Bullying to anyone who thinks that he has that lane clear to him?
Certainly not if a right indication has signalled the HGV driver’s intention to do just that.
Spardo:
I’m tired of this now, we are getting nowhere, however one final observation.
Rog’s 1st roundabout diagram is labelled ‘Lanes Wide Enough For Artic’ but plainly isn’t. The artic entering needs to encroach on the adjacent lane in order to get his trailer clear of the nearside kerb.
Bullying to anyone who thinks that he has that lane clear to him?
Certainly not if a right indication has signalled the HGV driver’s intention to do just that.
Thats what was being said earlier - to safely move out on approach but then to cancel any indicator that may have been used for that purpose - it is not bullying, it is taking up an entry position for the roundabout.
As the ahead lane is clearly marked as the left lane and the artic can fit into it’s own lane whilst on the roundabout, there is no need for a right signal whilst going around the roundabout, in fact, it could be mis-interpretated by other road users as going to the 4th exit instead of the intended ‘road ahead’ 3rd exit.
ROG:
[As the ahead lane is clearly marked as the left lane and the artic can fit into it’s own lane whilst on the roundabout, there is no need for a right signal whilst going around the roundabout, in fact, it could be mis-interpretated by other road users as going to the 4th exit instead of the intended ‘road ahead’ 3rd exit.
:
Why would it, and what would it matter anyway? They would realise that the 3rd is the destination as soon as he passes 2 and cancels to signal left. All clear and unambiguous.
I was always taught ‘mirror, signal, manoeuvre’. It strikes me that you are missing a vital component of that principle.
Nothing that has been said here convinces me that it is not still true.
ROG:
[As the ahead lane is clearly marked as the left lane and the artic can fit into it’s own lane whilst on the roundabout, there is no need for a right signal whilst going around the roundabout, in fact, it could be mis-interpretated by other road users as going to the 4th exit instead of the intended ‘road ahead’ 3rd exit.
:
Why would it, and what would it matter anyway? They would realise that the 3rd is the destination as soon as he passes 2 and cancels to signal left. All clear and unambiguous.
I was always taught ‘mirror, signal, manoeuvre’. It strikes me that you are missing a vital component of that principle.
Nothing that has been said here convinces me that it is not still true.
Lets see it from another viewpoint…
I see an artic in the safe confines of the left lane with a right signal on - the right lane has plenty of room for me to safely progress - I cannot - why? - because I do not know if the artic is going to change lanes or not - the right signal MIGHT just be for that - I am now confused by the meaning of that signal and, I am in effect, being forced (‘bullied’ ) to stay behind it but in my own lane.
