RHD ERFs with 5MW cabs

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
161

Carryfast you lay the blame at the door of the bosses for wanting gaffer’s wagons, which led to the demise of their market share and restricted the British manufacturers/assemblers to making such lorries and yet those same gaffers went out and bought Volvo and Scanias (which do not fit into the gaffer’s wagon criteria) in droves.

Am I missing the point here or are you talking ■■■■■■■■ again?

I think personally that driver opinion counted for quite a lot, it still does as you can see by the amount of megasupertoptrotterXXLs running around on day work because the gaffers know they have to run decent plant to get drivers.

As good as the Brits became in the mid 70s with the B series, NGC, 400 series etc most drivers still wanted an F88 or a 111 and the sales figures prove that this is exactly what they got.

162

newmercman:
Carryfast you lay the blame at the door of the bosses for wanting gaffer’s wagons, which led to the demise of their market share and restricted the British manufacturers/assemblers to making such lorries and yet those same gaffers went out and bought Volvo and Scanias (which do not fit into the gaffer’s wagon criteria) in droves.

Am I missing the point here or are you talking ■■■■■■■■ again?

I think personally that driver opinion counted for quite a lot, it still does as you can see by the amount of megasupertoptrotterXXLs running around on day work because the gaffers know they have to run decent plant to get drivers.

As good as the Brits became in the mid 70s with the B series, NGC, 400 series etc most drivers still wanted an F88 or a 111 and the sales figures prove that this is exactly what they got.

i completely agree about driver opinion being an important and underestimated factor. However, I am not convinced that significant numbers of drivers voted with their feet for what I consider to be better plant; rather they were inclined to go with the fashions of the day. I used to hop from an F88 into a B-series and back and for me there was no contest (B-series every time) but some of my compatriots would rather be seen in an F88.

The other thing we ought to separate out is the intrinsic quality of any given model from its back-up. If the back-up is crap, that doesn’t mean to say the lorry is.

Robert :smiley:

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Carryfast:
compromised old rope in the form of products like the F88 let alone the 86. :bulb: :frowning:

:laughing:

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167

Carryfast: well expressed!!! Not sugesting it was trial and error as that would/could be the case with other
manufacturers as well, the tricky and dodgy thing is in planning a product and its acceptance!

DAF Trucks made a very expensive failure by expecting every operator wanting a lorry (hence an average
stock of gross 2.500 vehicles on their parking lot) but also being flexible to adjust (possibly from stock) a
lorry a sort of custom-made before the Americans came to dictate more on made to order.

168

Carryfast:
Relatively speaking. :smiling_imp: :wink: But feel free to make the engineering case for a sub 10 litre motor that has to be run up to 2,200 rpm just to make less than 280 bhp,dodgy synchro box and small cab.As opposed to big turbocharged ■■■■■■■ with torque to match,the best case constant mesh box in the form of a Fuller,and a decent cab thrown in as a bonus.In which case the Brit ‘engineers’ can’t be blamed for the vagaries of the Brit customer buying choices. :unamused:

The engine and gearbox in the F88 were both reliable and well-received by customers all over Europe. The cab was not the biggest, but it was well liked by almost everyone. Just read the opinions of people who know, all over this forum.

This thread is for those who are interested to chart the history of the MW ERF, sometimes with the pleasure of the rose-tinted glasses. The fact of the matter is that the Volvo outsold it massively. There is no need for childish “better than yours” comparisons. Anyone with sense can join the dots by themselves. Stick to the facts.

169

Just to remind all that we have our opinions, experiences, preferences and all do our utmost to gain
a sort of playground on what ERF with regards to competitors was about…so leave everyone free to
high- and lowlight things please, speaking in your own words…no daft questions so no daft answers?

170

I think the ‘facts’ are always going to be intrinsically linked to the questions of what was going on in the heads of the domestic customer base.For it not to have recognised the engineering superiority contained in the combination of Motor Panels cab and turbocharged ■■■■■■■ and Fuller driveline,to the point where it ‘should’ have ( rightly ) wiped the floor with its contemporary foreign and in many cases domestic opposition. :bulb:

171

Right - message from the holder of the ERF archive, and as he has now put a weeks work into this, the least I can do is post the results on here for all to see.

I would like to add that none of this is anyone’s opinion, recollection, or what ‘I think is right’ - it is direct from the ERF build records, and dispels a few beliefs that I had - ie 3MW and 5MW cabs being fitted together. I do not post it with any wish to contradict what anybody else says or recalls - as Saviem says in his post, what was supposed to be, and recorded as being, was not always what actually happened…

MV
Cabs fitted during production were 2MV, 3MV, 4MV and 5MV

The first MV cabbed ERF is recorded as chassis 13263, a 2MV cabbed model 6.4 CU220 -10’1" wheelbase 4x2 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 28th Feb 1966 and destined for ERF South Africa.

The last MV cabbed ERF is recorded as chassis 23059, a 5MV cabbed model 6.8 CU310 of 18’ wheelbase 8x4 despatched ex Sun Works on the 4th Jan 1972 to I.S & P (New Zealand Dealer) for owner L.E. Elms & Sons and was registered GC3762.

MW
Cabs fitted during production were 3MW, 4MW, 5MW (edit:- and 6MW) and 7MW.

4MW
The very first recorded MW is chassis 16625, a 4MW2 cabbed model 6.6 RR220 - 13’1" wheelbase 6x4 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 4th November 1968. It was the first of a large batch of identical vehicles all UK registered PDD 173 to 199G and PDD 201 to 223G and delivered by road to Jordan Phosphate Mines Co., Amman, Jordan.
(Note - it has been reported by John on this forum that an MW cab was built at JH Jennings before July 1967 for an export eight wheel chassis powered by a Detroit V8 engine and bound for New Zealand. No record of this vehicle can be found despite exhaustive searches of the records - we can conclude this vehicle was not issued with an ERF chassis number, was not warrantied by ERF, but could still have been used for product development purposes).

The last 4MW was a LHD model MPR360.060 (64R205) Tractor Unit, despatched ex Sun Works on the 29th of Jan 1974 to the Chinese Petroleum Co. via Dunne Spencer.

3MW
The first 3MW cabbed ERF is chassis 17099, a model 6.6CU220, 12’7" wheelbase tipper/tractor despatched ex Sun Works on the 10th March 1969 via the dealer ‘■■■■■■■ Distributor Belgium’ for customer Lecoq.

The last 3MW cabbed ERF is chassis 25230, a model 6.6.CU235-SWB. Wheelbase not set, but suit 14’4". Despatched ex Sun Works on the 18th January 1973 to dealer ‘Industrial Steel & Plant’ New Zealand.

5MW
The first 5MW cabbed ERF is chassis 18714, a model 6.8.CU235 to suit 17’0" wheelbase. Despatched ex Sun Works on the 18th January 1973 to dealer ‘Cossens & Black’ New Zealand.

The last 5MW was 31490, a model MCC360.240 (64CU220) Tractor Unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 15th of April 1976 to WT ■■■■■ Haulage Ltd UK. via HLH Commercials.

7MW

The first 7MW tilt cabbed ERF was chassis 22993, a model NGC 420 - A6.4.CU335 tractor unit. Recorded as a ‘Show Vehicle’. Despatched ex Sun Works on the 1st October 1973 as a stock vehicle to ‘■■■■■■■ Distributor Belgium’ 623/629 Chausses de Haecht, Brussels 3, Belgium. This vehicle was subject to warranty claims for defects found on delivery, and on nine occasions subsequently, the last being the 10th March 1976.

The second 7MW was chassis 24684, a model NGC 420 - A6.4.CU335 LWB. 15’ 9" wheelbase. Despatched the 14th August 1973. Again recorded as a ‘Show Vehicle’ to the same distributor as above. Note the date - we can conclude that this was the first 7MW to actually leave the works.

The last recorded MW is chassis 31927, a model 7MW tilt cabbed model NGC 420 - A6.4.CU335 a 4x2 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 22nd of December 1977 to Falcon Freight, Jeddah.

Note - the last 3MW and first 5MW left the factory on the same day!. There was no overlap in production as I thought.
I hope this information is of some interest to you guys on here. A lot of effort has been put into researching it.
Edit :- see lists further down this thread for updated information.

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@ERF: Tremendous highlights!!! Thank you as well as to the archivist

173

compromised old rope in the form of products like the F88 let alone the 86. :bulb: :frowning:
[/quote]
:laughing:
[/quote]
Relatively speaking. :smiling_imp: :wink: But feel free to make the engineering case for a sub 10 litre motor that has to be run up to 2,200 rpm just to make less than 280 bhp,dodgy synchro box and small cab.As opposed to big turbocharged ■■■■■■■ with torque to match,the best case constant mesh box in the form of a Fuller,and a decent cab thrown in as a bonus.In which case the Brit ‘engineers’ can’t be blamed for the vagaries of the Brit customer buying choices. :unamused:
[/quote]
Afternoon Gentlemen,

I just love it when the “nutters” are let free from the institution.

Few hard facts.

The period that we are recalling, in the UK market, (still the largest volume in Europe), you would have been hard pressed to secure any MW cab ERF, as the works simply could not meet demand for other models, and Motor Panels consistently failed to meet its production targets for sold units of the basic cab structure, for both UK, and European users of its product…

The F86, (in its day), was a quiet, efficient, light tare weight, economic, and productive lorry…that is why it sold, and demand rapidly overtook supply for the tractor unit. To criticise its engineered driveline, (even from these far distant days), and the service levels demanded of its Distributors by Ailsa Trucks, (either under Jim McKelvie, or later under Phill Ives), simply shows a complete lack of awareness of both the industry, the time, and the product.

Personally I found the 5 series cab rather an ugly structure, bearing an uncanny resemblance to the crew compartment of a Cambrian Railway 0 6 0 shunting engine, the 7 series undeniably handsome, and with the big ■■■■■■■ a real barnstormer…but lets not kid ourselves…the driving experience given by the SP cab would be far more comfortable, in all areas of noise, vibration, and harshness. Perhaps the 7 series was the zenith of the Motor Panels design, and the SP the start of a new era. Certainly sheet moulded compound, over a steel frame gave advantages in cost of in service repair, and also in ease of production. As it did in the USA for Mack.

But one fact is certain, even if ERF, in its cab design, and offerings, was regarded in the industry" like a lady who simply could not make up her mind as to which dress she had tried on, she should buy", in their basic chassis, driveline, braking, and handling characteristics, they were without equal…if only they , (as a company), were more analytical in their approach to the market place…but ERF produced lovely lorries, they really did

Cheerio for now.

174

ERF:
Right - back for one more post!.
I have today had my final message from the holder of the ERF archive, and as he has now put a weeks work into this, the least I can do is post the results on here for all to see.

I would like to add that none of this is anyone’s opinion, recollection, or what ‘I think is right’ - it is direct from the ERF build records, and dispels a few beliefs that I had - ie 3MW and 5MW cabs being fitted together. I do not post it with any wish to contradict what anybody else says or recalls - as Saviem says in his post, what was supposed to be, and recorded as being, was not always what actually happened…

MV
Cabs fitted during production were 2MV, 3MV, 4MV and 5MV

The first MV cabbed ERF is recorded as chassis 13263, a 2MV cabbed model 6.4 CU220 -10’1" wheelbase 4x2 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 28th Feb 1966 and destined for ERF South Africa.

The last MV cabbed ERF is recorded as chassis 23059, a 5MV cabbed model 6.8 CU310 of 18’ wheelbase 8x4 despatched ex Sun Works on the 4th Jan 1972 to I.S & P (New Zealand Dealer) for owner L.E. Elms & Sons and was registered GC3762.

MW
Cabs fitted during production were 3MW, 4MW, 5MW and 7MW.

4MW
The very first recorded MW is chassis 16625, a 4MW2 cabbed model 6.6 RR220 - 13’1" wheelbase 6x4 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 4th November 1968. It was the first of a large batch of identical vehicles all UK registered PDD 173 to 199G and PDD 201 to 223G and delivered by road to Jordan Phosphate Mines Co., Amman, Jordan.
(Note - it has been reported by John on this forum that an MW cab was built at JH Jennings before July 1967 for an export eight wheel chassis powered by a Detroit V8 engine and bound for New Zealand. No record of this vehicle can be found despite exhaustive searches of the records - we can conclude this vehicle was not issued with an ERF chassis number, was not warrantied by ERF, but could still have been used for product development purposes).

The last 4MW was a LHD model MPR360.060 (64R205) Tractor Unit, despatched ex Sun Works on the 29th of Jan 1974 to the Chinese Petroleum Co. via Dunne Spencer.

3MW
The first 3MW cabbed ERF is chassis 17099, a model 6.6CU220, 12’7" wheelbase tipper/tractor despatched ex Sun Works on the 10th March 1969 via the dealer ‘■■■■■■■ Distributor Belgium’ for customer Lecoq.

The last 3MW cabbed ERF is chassis 25230, a model 6.6.CU235-SWB. Wheelbase not set, but suit 14’4". Despatched ex Sun Works on the 18th January 1973 to dealer ‘Industrial Steel & Plant’ New Zealand.

5MW
The first 5MW cabbed ERF is chassis 18714, a model 6.8.CU235 to suit 17’0" wheelbase. Despatched ex Sun Works on the 18th January 1973 to dealer ‘Cossens & Black’ New Zealand.

The last 5MW was 31490, a model MCC360.240 (64CU220) Tractor Unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 15th of April 1976 to WT ■■■■■ Haulage Ltd UK. via HLH Commercials.

7MW

The first 7MW tilt cabbed ERF was chassis 22993, a model NGC 420 - A6.4.CU335 tractor unit. Recorded as a ‘Show Vehicle’. Despatched ex Sun Works on the 1st October 1973 as a stock vehicle to ‘■■■■■■■ Distributor Belgium’ 623/629 Chausses de Haecht, Brussels 3, Belgium. This vehicle was subject to warranty claims for defects found on delivery, and on nine occasions subsequently, the last being the 10th March 1976.

The second 7MW was chassis 24684, a model NGC 420 - A6.4.CU335 LWB. 15’ 9" wheelbase. Despatched the 14th August 1973. Again recorded as a ‘Show Vehicle’ to the same distributor as above. Note the date - we can conclude that this was the first 7MW to actually leave the works.

The last recorded MW is chassis 31927, a model 7MW tilt cabbed model NGC 420 - A6.4.CU335 a 4x2 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 22nd of December 1977 to Falcon Freight, Jeddah.

Note - the last 3MW and first 5MW left the factory on the same day!. There was no overlap in production as I thought.
I hope this information is of some interest to you guys on here. A lot of effort has been put into researching it.

Wow! Thank you ‘ERF’ for your research and for sharing it with us. :smiley:

And well done ‘Anorak’ for spotting where the 3MW / 5MW fault-line appeared to lie! :smiley:

This has been a highly productive week on the ERF threads. Thank you everyone for your patience and forbearance. :smiley:

Robert

175

Only a remark and by no means negative nor offensive towards the registrator…between the first NGC420
with 7MW and the second one…are 1.500 vehicles according to the chassisnumbers…strange or …?

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Carryfast.

And yet even when ERF did have a large capacity turbocharged, constant mesh chassis with a big cab available (E14) in direct competition with Volvo and their highly stressed small engine, synchro, small cab offering (FL10) the Volvo still annihilated the ERF in sales.

The ERF was reliable, fast and economical, lightweight and pretty much ticked every box for both driver and operator, so how did it lose out in the real world?

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I have the humble thougth that SALES did reservations with the ongoing chassis-numbers more or less
in terms of (what has been stated earlier) "what do you want, tractor, rigid, gardner, david brown,
■■■■■■■■ fuller, rolls royce, daycab, sleeper and then…we BOOK sales and (with all respect) Peter
Foden had his ‘domestic’ sales and rights of existence, nothing more nothing less, a pitty that nowadays’
financials/bankers did not invest more thorough and give room for foreign investors…history now

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