[zb]
anorak:
…The narrow set-back axle one is a 3MV, the wide set-back axle one is a 3MW. I understand that, but what about the 4MV- there are pictures of these about the place, and they have the wide cab.
By wide cab, do you mean MW?.
The MV and MW can be quite easily identifed apart by the front styling.
Is it possible you have seen some MW pictures that have been mis-captioned as MV’s?.
ERF:
A 2MV would be ‘cab over axle’, rather than a ‘set back’ axle like this.
[zb]
anorak:
This disagrees with the CM article. It appears to describe the launch of the Motor Panels ERF at Earls Court, showing a picture of a forward-axle, narrow-cab 6x4 tractor. The text says, “The cab on the six-wheeler has been specially developed for export markets. It is called the MV…” Based on that, the set-back axle version of this narrow cab should be a 2MV?
Perhaps someone could make a chart showing pictures of all the variants. We could have a proper old row about that!
No need for a row!.
The CM article was correct in essence, and just referring to the steel cab type as MV. To be honest, I can’t recall any CM article getting more in depth than just referring to basic cab type.
All ERF LV, MV and MW (and the FV dumper) cabs used the same type of number identification based on leading front axle position.
The set forward axle (cab over axle) cabs were ALWAYS even numbers - 2, 4, 6 and 8.
The set back axle cabs were ALWAYS odd numbers 3, 5 and 7.
The exceptions are the very first LV ‘long door’ cabs, which were only built for a set back axle chassis, and were designated LV/B for the Bowyer Bros/Boalloy built cab, and LV/J for the JH Jennings built cab. If a set forward axle was required, a 2KV cab would still be fitted from 1962 (…ie the launch of the LV) until the first 2LV cabs came about in late 64.
The LV cab types were suffixed by an L or M, L for illuminated or plain nameboard, or M for a basic flat roof.
ERF:
The MV and MW can be quite easily identifed apart by the front styling. Is it possible you have seen some MW pictures that have been mis-captioned as MV’s?.
Almost certainly.
I think that clears it up- V is narrow, W is wide, numbers as in your previous posts, sleeper cabs not mentioned in the designation.
[zb]
anorak:
Edit- no, because that, according to your earlier post, would be a 3MV. This tallies with other posts which have stated that there was no 2MV.
But there was a 2MV cab.
The ERF works photo from my Flickr photostream of the Shell tanker on the previous page has the 2MV cab - it says on the back of the print!.
The 2MV and 4MV could usually (but not reliably!) be distinguished by the upper front panel. The earlier cab has either one oval radiator air vent, or 3 big ones. The 4MV has 3 narrower slots in the top panel. If you have a look at Robert’s MV thread you will see what I mean.
Robert would say…the thick plottens and also I agree that it would be crisp and
clear to make the notification of respectively chassis and cab more understandable.
My humble suggestion…picture 1A towards 1 MV, picture 1B towards 1 MW and so
on, and I am confident history and clarification is written finally!!!
ERF-Continental:
Robert would say…the thick plottens and also I agree that it would be crisp and
clear to make the notification of respectively chassis and cab more understandable.
My humble suggestion…picture 1A towards 1 MV, picture 1B towards 1 MW and so
on, and I am confident history and clarification is written finally!!!
[zb]
anorak:
Edit- no, because that, according to your earlier post, would be a 3MV. This tallies with other posts which have stated that there was no 2MV.
But there was a 2MV cab.
The ERF works photo from my Flickr photostream of the Shell tanker on the previous page has the 2MV cab - it says on the back of the print!.
The 2MV and 4MV could usually (but not reliably!) be distinguished by the upper front panel. The earlier cab has either one oval radiator air vent, or 3 big ones. The 4MV has 3 narrower slots in the top panel. If you have a look at Robert’s MV thread you will see what I mean.
More good detail from ERF Peterborough. So:
MV (narrow) cabs were typically just referred to as MVs, although they were designated as follows:
1MV- did this exist?
2MV- forward axle.
3MV- set back axle.
4MV-forward axle, some details different to 2MV (When was 4MV introduced?).
MW (wide) cabs as follows:
3MW- 5.75" lamps, set back axle (but short door).
4MW- forward axle, 7" lamps.
5MW- updated 3MW (from what date?) with 7" lamps.
7MW- NGC cab.
Any other MW variants?
All cabs could have sleepers, but some did not. Some did more often than not.
Please feel free to correct or update this list. It is probably wrong, judging by my previous attempts to rationalise this subject. These ERF threads must make me look like the biggest idiot on the forum.
[zb]
anorak:
Edit- no, because that, according to your earlier post, would be a 3MV. This tallies with other posts which have stated that there was no 2MV.
But there was a 2MV cab.
The ERF works photo from my Flickr photostream of the Shell tanker on the previous page has the 2MV cab - it says on the back of the print!.
The 2MV and 4MV could usually (but not reliably!) be distinguished by the upper front panel. The earlier cab has either one oval radiator air vent, or 3 big ones. The 4MV has 3 narrower slots in the top panel. If you have a look at Robert’s MV thread you will see what I mean.
More good detail from ERF Peterborough. So:
MV (narrow) cabs were typically just referred to as MVs, although they were designated as follows:
1MV- did this exist?
2MV- forward axle.
3MV- set back axle.
4MV-forward axle, some details different to 2MV (When was 4MV introduced?).
MW (wide) cabs as follows:
3MW- 5.75" lamps, set back axle (but short door).
4MW- forward axle, 7" lamps.
5MW- updated 3MW (from what date?) with 7" lamps.
7MW- NGC cab.
Any other MW variants?
All cabs could have sleepers, but some did not. Some did more often than not.
Please feel free to correct or update this list. It is probably wrong, judging by my previous attempts to rationalise this subject. These ERF threads must make me look like the biggest idiot on the forum.
Absolutely not, zbAnorak! We’re all in the same boat here, making a valiant effort to learn from each other in the absence of an ERF Archives Office. In the absence of said office, the whole process of piecing together ERF’s history has become much more of an adventure - and almost certainly to more sharing of ideas. Your list helps to clarify it my mind too, and no doubt ‘E R F’ will fine-tune it for us. Robert
[zb]
anorak:
MV (narrow) cabs were typically just referred to as MVs, although they were designated as follows:
1MV- did this exist?
2MV- forward axle.
3MV- set back axle.
4MV-forward axle, some details different to 2MV (When was 4MV introduced?).
MW (wide) cabs as follows:
3MW- 5.75" lamps, set back axle (but short door).
4MW- forward axle, 7" lamps.
5MW- updated 3MW (from what date?) with 7" lamps.
7MW- NGC cab.
Any other MW variants?
All cabs could have sleepers, but some did not. Some did more often than not.
Please feel free to correct or update this list. It is probably wrong, judging by my previous attempts to rationalise this subject. These ERF threads must make me look like the biggest idiot on the forum.
Absolutely not, zbAnorak! We’re all in the same boat here, making a valiant effort to learn from each other in the absence of an ERF Archives Office. In the absence of said office, the whole process of piecing together ERF’s history has become much more of an adventure - and almost certainly to more sharing of ideas. Your list helps to clarify it my mind too, and no doubt ‘E R F’ will fine-tune it for us. Robert
I fully agree with Robert.
In fact, you have got a far better grasp of it than most.
I have lived amongst ERF (and other) trucks all my life. I have collected original works information for the last 30 years, and collected and restored the actual trucks for 25 years now, and yet I still learn lots of things about them. One of the things that hinders the flow of really good accurate information is the books and magazine articles that get it wrong, sometimes badly wrong, and yet are taken as gospel by readers. Even the excellent book by Dai Davies, a factory man through and through contains some glaring errors - KV’s with the wrong cab code and several referred to as model 68GXB’s, for example, when the last KV was built in 1966, but the LXB engine did not appear until 67.
I could go on all day, but will finish by saying your list is perfect. Well done.
To answer your points, no cab was designated 1MV.
The dates of changes are a grey area (just for a change!) the chassis records show there were vehicles being fitted with the MV cab after the MW had been launched. Likewise the styling updates. Replacement parts tended to be of the latest design, so particularly with the LV’s, an early cab could quite easily look just like a late one if it had been damaged and repaired.
A good mate of mine is laboriously checking the factory chassis records for the chassis number and dates of the first / last MV and MW so we can record them here. I will update in due course.
No such think as ‘only an anorak’ John! Don’t take any notice of those paperback psychologists who would have us believe that absorbed interest in something is a disease - they’re ‘only’ psychology anoraks, after all… Robert
3300John:
…the first MW was built in 1967…you say you need to look at ERF records for history…
I do John.
The written records from the works do not alter with the passing of time. With the very greatest of respect to you, even the best memories can’t claim that. I can’t even remember with total clarity what I did last week!.
3300John:
7and8 lv cabs used on the A series…
Only the 7LV was fitted to the A’ Series chassis of course.
3300John:
the 5and6 lv had the black bonnet with the narrow top but had the green fibre glass dash panel with the mock wood. the lv 2 lv 3lv 4 had the black rounded fibre glass dash with round bonnet and a chrome handle in the middle.
Green dash panel - you are talking about the main dash and seat box moulding in light green here I assume?. The actual upper dash housing was black on all cabs from the 5/6LV to the end, and all had that fake wood.
The 2LV did not have the rounded steel bonnet. It shared the black moulded fibreglass bonnet and seat boxes of the early ‘long door’ cabs.
3300John:
the distance from back to front on all the LV cabs is the same. infact you can fit a new7 or 8 LV cab onto a 1960 lorry that had a KV cab fitted if it was the correct axle position…
Exactly right - and quite a few were so fitted.
3300John:
i know you like to dislike what i say but when i can even put names to jobs
it cant be far of the truth.
If this comment is aimed at me, I don’t dislike what you say at all John.
Your memories from your days at JHJ are very important, and actually I would like to thank you for sharing them.
All I am doing here is taking the time and trouble to reproduce the works records for accuracy and clarity, not to argue with you. I have no desire to do that at all.
3300John:
… maybe i am the only anorak to come on this site…
3300John:
hiya the first MW was built before july 1967…i ll tell you why Dennis Cooper and myself was doing the interior panels…
This post, and posts like it, are the icing on the cake of TNUK- real memories from the people who actually built the machines!
Regarding things like bonnet height- were there different drawings of the various types, or was the instruction from the office “Just make it fit”?
PS- why did the ERF LV change so markedly, so early in its production life? The first ones had a wrap-round 'screen and a square-ish wheelarch, but the later variants seemed to be a completely different cab.
Our thanks go to the holder of the records for the following information…
The first MV cabbed ERF is recorded as chassis 13263, a model 6.4 CU220 -10’1" wheelbase 4x2 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 28th Feb 1966 and destined for ERF South Africa. The cab for this vehicle is recorded as received from JHJ December 1965.
The last MV cabbed ERF is recorded as chassis 23059, a 5MV cabbed model 6.8 CU310 of 18’ wheelbase 8x4 despatched ex Sun Works on the 4th Jan 1972 to I.S & P (New Zealand Dealer) for owner L.E. Elms & Sons and was registered GC3762.
The first recorded MW is chassis 16625, a 4MW2 cabbed model 6.6 RR220 - 13’1" wheelbase 6x4 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 4th November 1968. It was the first of a large batch of identical vehicles all UK registered PDD 173 to 199G and PDD 201 to 223G and delivered by road to Jordan Phosphate Mines Co., Amman, Jordan.
The last recorded MW (found so far) is chassis 31927, a model A6.4. CU335 (built on the A’ series design chassis), a 4x2 tractor unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 22nd of December 1977 to Falcon Freight, Jeddah.
3300John:
hiya the first MW was built before july 1967…i ll tell you why Dennis Cooper and myself was doing the interior panels.
the 8 wheeler sleeper had a V8 detriot engine so the bonnet was really lowthe truck was destined for new Zealand…
We cannot find any earlier MW cabs fitted than the Jordan bound one above.
We have checked all known New Zealand bound 8 wheelers from Dec 1966 to Dec 1968 (a total of 9 vehicles), but all were recorded as ■■■■■■■ powered. Cossens & Black, the dealer there received some of them in CKD kit form, some also went there via ERF South Africa. The Detroit engine could have been a local modification perhaps?.
[zb]
anorak:
…PS- why did the ERF LV change so markedly, so early in its production life? The first ones had a wrap-round 'screen and a square-ish wheelarch, but the later variants seemed to be a completely different cab.
There were two totally different variants of the early LV ‘long door’ cab.
The first was the LV/B designed and built by Gerald Broardbent (who designed the KV cab when he was at JH Jennings) at Bowyer Bros (Boalloy) of Congleton. These are the cabs with the squared wheel arch, full width opening front panel and more of a wrap to the windscreen. The Boalloy cab was a huge one-piece fibreglass moulding, reinforced with moulded in marine plywood where required. The door pillars (under the skin) were aluminium, the door handles were mounted vertically and from a Mk9 Jaguar, the door hinges were concealed and from an Austin Healey sports car.
Shortly after, JH Jennings were also asked to design a cab based on Broardbents basic style, but more traditionally constructed on an ash wood frame. Their cab was the LV/J, this cab had a smaller opening front panel and round arches.
Not one single component was shared between the cabs, and when ERF took a controlling interest in JH Jennings, cab production could be done ‘in house’, and the Boalloy cab was dropped with all future cabs being based on the Jennings version.
3300John:
hiya ERF man why o why o why do you say what you think is correct.i was in the cab shop…yes i know about Bowally cabs
yes you have one its ex HL from Frodsham… we have spoke before…I was there…i made the front aluminium panels that changed
the look of the 7 and 8 lv s…i ve given you evidence about the first Mw and some dates…sorry to say I am away from this site… good
luck to all off you… its obvious you don t need any feed back from me…
John
@John…I hear (and read) you and your dedication, expertise and clear view is highly appreciated.
Let’s all focus on what WE as a group know (out of experiences and/or documents) as well what has been
secured by still existing vehicles, literature etc…to proceed what really happened with this TOP-marque!
No doubt there will remain gaps or overlaps or discussions and time will tell if we all share our knowledge.
I really hope your presence here is an active and frequent one…every now or then something will pop up
and with that content we all build the jig saw to something complete as can be.
My humble suggestion is to produce a table/excel in which all info (with references to pictures) is clear to
understand how 'tailormade" ERF respectively Jennings and others were active to give birth to a top-lorry!
3300John:
hiya ERF man why o why o why do you say what you think is correct.i was in the cab shop…yes i know about Bowally cabs
yes you have one its ex HL from Frodsham… we have spoke before…I was there…i made the front aluminium panels that changed
the look of the 7 and 8 lv s…i ve given you evidence about the first Mw and some dates…sorry to say I am away from this site… good
luck to all off you… its obvious you don t need any feed back from me…
John
I must echo the thoughts of the others, in that your contribution to this forum is invaluable. For what it is worth, I did not get the impression that anyone was disagreeing with you, merely confirming what you had to say. Please continue to post. As I implied above, information from people who were involved in the actual engineering, in the day, is like RHS* on the forum, so is always welcome.
*Robert- RHS does not stand for Right Hand Steering, in this case.
John: right from the start your contributions have been precious to all of us who care about ERF heritage: on the Eric Vick thread, European 1975 thread, the Vijore thread and all sorts of earlier threads that no longer surface, but which I have read. Your descriptions of the Jennings workshop are priceless and I’ve included some of them in my book, now being printed.
If you read E R F’s plea to keep you on course, it is abundantly clear that he doesn’t intend to put anyone’s nose out of joint. All his previous postings on TNUK are gentle, informative and non-aggressive. E R F has proved me wrong and several others wrong too, because he has the information - information that you and I and everyone else needs to get it right for ERF lorry history.
I implore you, John3300 to stick with us. I implore you, E R F to stick with us too. We need you old historians to keeps us on course. I’m just an elderly bloke who loved driving '70s ERFs and likes writing about it. But you were there at the building of them.
Gentlemen, we all have work to do: let’s do it together, and in peace.
